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Te'o/Minter/Ogletree in the first or Brown in the second?
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Go_Ravens2


Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just watched some of Minter's film and I gotta say I'm very very impressed by this kid. He is a very sound tackler, has good instincts, and can shed blocks pretty well. He leaves some to be desired as far as coverage goes. Something I noticed was that he had some of his best games against the best competition he faced. A lot of times we see guys pad their stats and resumes against lower competition, but his best games were against Florida, Clemson, and Texas A&M. He stepped his game up when facing stiffer competition (guys that are more likely to make it to the next level), which makes me even more confident in him moving forward. He actually did a fairly decent job at dealing with Tajh Boyd and Johnny Football. He is very stout against the run and I definitely have him ranked ahead of Ogletree. I'm moving onto Te'o next, then Arthur Brown, then Khaseem Greene so I'll have my rankings soon.
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dcarey20


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
dcarey20 wrote:
Don't understand the Ogletree hate outside of the character concerns.

1.) Ogletree
2.) Teo
3.) Minter


What makes you rank those two over Minter? Just curious.


Ogletree is about as fast to the ball as any 240+ lb backer I've seen come out recently. Others have made good points about him potentially have trouble in shedding blocks (and looking like what he is; a safety who moved to linebacker) but at the same time, the burst and agility that I've seen from him is a bigger positive than the aforementioned block shedding would be a negative.

I've always been a Teo fan, obviously we know why his stock has fallen, but to me the championship game performance is a bit overblown; I think that Alabama offense would have made any LB look bad that night, they were clicking on all cylinders; Eddie Lacy is IMO the best back in this draft, and TJ Yeldon IMO is going to be the best back in America by next year. So it wasn't like he was getting owned by scrubs. All that aside...

I think Teo's a perfect example of a talented player who falls off for some reason and we nab him and he looks great. He's more of a playmaker than Minter to me, particularly in coverage.

Don't take those things as a slight to Minter; I'd be happy with any and I think all are top 25 players as of now.
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r_sayle


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want minter as a raven, quite badly but I also want us to double up and look to bring in Klein because I'm not overly sold on McClain and don't like the injury. Spinal cord injury on a position that takes a lot of punishment. I really like Minter n everything he does and Klein I feel could be a 3rd round steal.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
dcarey20 wrote:
Don't understand the Ogletree hate outside of the character concerns.

1.) Ogletree
2.) Teo
3.) Minter


What makes you rank those two over Minter? Just curious.


Ogletree is about as fast to the ball as any 240+ lb backer I've seen come out recently. Others have made good points about him potentially have trouble in shedding blocks (and looking like what he is; a safety who moved to linebacker) but at the same time, the burst and agility that I've seen from him is a bigger positive than the aforementioned block shedding would be a negative.

Alec Ogletree is 6'2.5" 234 lbs
Arthur Brown is 6'0.5" 228 lbs

Pound for pound, the ratio is about the same. And Brown is clearly faster and more agile than Ogletree. Brown is also superior in attacking the LOS. Brown actually has great LBer instincts, while Ogletree does not (which is a knock you failed to mention). The tackle shedding is about the same, but Brown uses his instincts to avoid blocks more often than not, while 'Tree is dependent on his lineman to occupy blockers. There is a reason why Georgia has such beef on the line along with a "star studded defense" and yet their run defense is only ranked- wait for it- 77th in the league (out of 120 teams, bottom 3rd) giving up 178 yds/game... part of that is Kwame Geathers being average to below average, but the other part is Ogletree having below average instincts at ILB. He's the definition of 'WOLB only' at the next level. He's Ernie Sims. Like I said, he's a tackle-whore, but makes most of his tackles after 4-6 yard gains because he's not a true linebacker.

But back to your statement. There's no way Ogletree is faster or quicker than Brown. He literally has nothing on Brown- at all- outside of 2" in height (Ray Lewis was same height as Brown) and 6 lbs.

I honestly can't see any universe where Ogletree is better than Brown. It's like a universe where gravity doesn't exist and fish know how to fly. It doesn't make sense.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think right now my rankings for ILB's look like this:

Tier 1- Can't miss prospects. All of these guys are fairly close right now.
1 ) Te'o
2 ) Minter
3 ) Brown

Tier 2- I think all of these guys can at least be solid ILB's in our scheme
4 ) Kiko Alonso
5 ) Khaseem Greene
6 ) Jon Bostic
7 ) A.J. Klein

Tier 3
8 ) Alec Ogletree
9 ) Nico Johnson

I'm just not a fan of of drafting an ILB who misses tackles like Ogletree did in college and doesn't attack the LOS. There's just too many question marks when a guy like this makes the jump to the NFL. Not only does his speed become less of a factor, but guys are going to be harder to tackle, which would only magnify the weaknesses in his form. He would make a really good WLB in a 4-3 and a great LB to play in nickel packages, but I would really prefer both ILB's in a 3-4 to tackle better and have better instincts than Ogletree. That being said, with his potential, I wouldn't mind taking a guy like Te'o or Minter in the first and Ogletree in the second. He would complement those guys pretty well because they both are solid tacklers with good instincts and he could just use his speed to follow them and clean things up.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
dcarey20 wrote:
Don't understand the Ogletree hate outside of the character concerns.

1.) Ogletree
2.) Teo
3.) Minter


What makes you rank those two over Minter? Just curious.


Ogletree is about as fast to the ball as any 240+ lb backer I've seen come out recently. Others have made good points about him potentially have trouble in shedding blocks (and looking like what he is; a safety who moved to linebacker) but at the same time, the burst and agility that I've seen from him is a bigger positive than the aforementioned block shedding would be a negative.

I've always been a Teo fan, obviously we know why his stock has fallen, but to me the championship game performance is a bit overblown; I think that Alabama offense would have made any LB look bad that night, they were clicking on all cylinders; Eddie Lacy is IMO the best back in this draft, and TJ Yeldon IMO is going to be the best back in America by next year. So it wasn't like he was getting owned by scrubs. All that aside...

I think Teo's a perfect example of a talented player who falls off for some reason and we nab him and he looks great. He's more of a playmaker than Minter to me, particularly in coverage.

Don't take those things as a slight to Minter; I'd be happy with any and I think all are top 25 players as of now.


Thanks. It appears that you value explosion/speed for a LB more than I do relative to valuing instintcts and block shedding. Personally, I'd rank them instincts/block shedding/speed/explosion in order from most important to least.

As for Te'o, yeah it's unfortunate one of the big reasons he's likely to slip is due to off the field stuff, but for me, that's only a very small reason and could very well be cleared up via the interview process. My biggest issue is exactly what you said -- how he didn't look good at all against a top team in the nation. If he's getting abused by Lacy and Yeldon, how's he going to look against Peterson, Charles, Richardson, Foster, etc? That worries me. I think he's a very instinctive guy, but I question his run support and despite his 7 INTs this past season, I don't think he's anything but average in coverage.

I think Minter isn't much above average in coverage either, but I think he has similar instincts and is much more stout against the run. Likewise, as somebody mentioned above, he had his best games against the best teams in the country. It gives me confidence that come the time to face NFL competition, he'll be able to further elevate his game to be a very solid player.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what's telling to me with that Championship game isn't Te'O and his performance. I think had Te'O and Notre Dame played Alabama in the regular season when he was clearly on a roll, his performance would've looked much more impressive.

But that Championship game is incredibly tough to play in. You've got, what? 1-2 months of layover from your last game to the championship game?

Alabama players were at an advantage having been in that game before and so frequently over the past few seasons. They know what that layover is like, their coaches can properly prepare their guys for that layover better.

What I think it most shows is a lack of focus. Te'O didn't show the proper focus and work ethic to get back into top gear. He had awards dinners, media focus, fictional girlfriends, etc... sure he had plenty of reasons/excuses, but he didn't step his effort up for the big game. His preparation wasn't what it needed to be... and that showed through his performance.

As an aside, I think heading to the next level, Te'O also needs to lose weight. Ray Lewis was playing in that 250 area at the tail end of his career because his speed was losing him so he needed more power to make plays. Te'O is still young and explosive and he's not a power guy anyway. His extra weight hasn't helped him with taking on blockers. I think he'd be best served to lose a good 10 lbs to improve his lateral quickness and make him a more fluid player in space.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

But that Championship game is incredibly tough to play in. You've got, what? 1-2 months of layover from your last game to the championship game?

Alabama players were at an advantage having been in that game before and so frequently over the past few seasons. They know what that layover is like, their coaches can properly prepare their guys for that layover better.

That's the biggest reason why I'm not letting that affect my decision on him that much. Plus, in the NFL he's never going to have to deal with that 1-2 month layover between games.

He was a sure thing before that game and I don't think one bad performance against the best team in the country should take his stock down that much. I understand the preparation issues, but he has a history of being a hard worker and leader on his team. I think I would trust his great 4 years of play over one game and a fake girlfriend scandal.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it depends on who is left at the end of the first round, in positions the Ravens have needs at.

If, say, Lane Johnson was somehow still on the board at #32, I'd be all for picking him to solidify that O-line, then going for Brown in the second.

And it also depends on free agency. If the Ravens managed to re-sign Ellerbe and/or Reed, that would influence the thinking too. Assuming Reed goes, I'd love to see Matt Elam become a Raven.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:

But that Championship game is incredibly tough to play in. You've got, what? 1-2 months of layover from your last game to the championship game?

Alabama players were at an advantage having been in that game before and so frequently over the past few seasons. They know what that layover is like, their coaches can properly prepare their guys for that layover better.

That's the biggest reason why I'm not letting that affect my decision on him that much. Plus, in the NFL he's never going to have to deal with that 1-2 month layover between games.

He was a sure thing before that game and I don't think one bad performance against the best team in the country should take his stock down that much. I understand the preparation issues, but he has a history of being a hard worker and leader on his team. I think I would trust his great 4 years of play over one game and a fake girlfriend scandal.

Yeah. And just to clarify. When I mention focus... I don't just mean just his ability to prepare for a game, I mean his ability to focus under intense adversity and circumstance. Some guys you can trust to fight through anything, prepare like champs, and just leave it all out on the field... no matter the distraction. Heck for some guys distractions suddenly become motivations.

But Manti Te'O, either due to youth, or just due to his nature... he doesn't seem to possess that ability- that extra step of leadership. I think it speaks to his lack of what many refer to as a 'clutch' gene. He's the kind of guy that can make key interceptions in a regular season game like a champ, but drop one come playoff time. I think what that National Championship game shows me is that maybe his mental psyche is more Ray Rice/Marvin Harrison- esq. A playmaker that suddenly you doubt his talent to come through as consistently as usual when in the big moments.
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Go_Ravens2


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:

But that Championship game is incredibly tough to play in. You've got, what? 1-2 months of layover from your last game to the championship game?

Alabama players were at an advantage having been in that game before and so frequently over the past few seasons. They know what that layover is like, their coaches can properly prepare their guys for that layover better.

That's the biggest reason why I'm not letting that affect my decision on him that much. Plus, in the NFL he's never going to have to deal with that 1-2 month layover between games.

He was a sure thing before that game and I don't think one bad performance against the best team in the country should take his stock down that much. I understand the preparation issues, but he has a history of being a hard worker and leader on his team. I think I would trust his great 4 years of play over one game and a fake girlfriend scandal.

Yeah. And just to clarify. When I mention focus... I don't just mean just his ability to prepare for a game, I mean his ability to focus under intense adversity and circumstance. Some guys you can trust to fight through anything, prepare like champs, and just leave it all out on the field... no matter the distraction. Heck for some guys distractions suddenly become motivations.

But Manti Te'O, either due to youth, or just due to his nature... he doesn't seem to possess that ability- that extra step of leadership. I think it speaks to his lack of what many refer to as a 'clutch' gene. He's the kind of guy that can make key interceptions in a regular season game like a champ, but drop one come playoff time. I think what that National Championship game shows me is that maybe his mental psyche is more Ray Rice/Marvin Harrison- esq. A playmaker that suddenly you doubt his talent to come through as consistently as usual when in the big moments.


This is an actual question, not meant to be rhetorical or anything.

How did Te'o do in his previous Bowl game experience? I know he played in at least two games and that means he still had a big layoff between games. We've seen him play well against good teams during the regular season and if he has done well in bowl games in the past, then maybe there was another factor at hand in the BCS NC game.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go_Ravens2 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:

But that Championship game is incredibly tough to play in. You've got, what? 1-2 months of layover from your last game to the championship game?

Alabama players were at an advantage having been in that game before and so frequently over the past few seasons. They know what that layover is like, their coaches can properly prepare their guys for that layover better.

That's the biggest reason why I'm not letting that affect my decision on him that much. Plus, in the NFL he's never going to have to deal with that 1-2 month layover between games.

He was a sure thing before that game and I don't think one bad performance against the best team in the country should take his stock down that much. I understand the preparation issues, but he has a history of being a hard worker and leader on his team. I think I would trust his great 4 years of play over one game and a fake girlfriend scandal.

Yeah. And just to clarify. When I mention focus... I don't just mean just his ability to prepare for a game, I mean his ability to focus under intense adversity and circumstance. Some guys you can trust to fight through anything, prepare like champs, and just leave it all out on the field... no matter the distraction. Heck for some guys distractions suddenly become motivations.

But Manti Te'O, either due to youth, or just due to his nature... he doesn't seem to possess that ability- that extra step of leadership. I think it speaks to his lack of what many refer to as a 'clutch' gene. He's the kind of guy that can make key interceptions in a regular season game like a champ, but drop one come playoff time. I think what that National Championship game shows me is that maybe his mental psyche is more Ray Rice/Marvin Harrison- esq. A playmaker that suddenly you doubt his talent to come through as consistently as usual when in the big moments.


This is an actual question, not meant to be rhetorical or anything.

How did Te'o do in his previous Bowl game experience? I know he played in at least two games and that means he still had a big layoff between games. We've seen him play well against good teams during the regular season and if he has done well in bowl games in the past, then maybe there was another factor at hand in the BCS NC game.

Well last year was the Champ Sports Bowl against FSU

The year before (Sophomore) was the Sun Bowl against Miami

I don't feel like looking up the stats ATM.

And in terms of the extra element. Like I said, distraction. The previous years he didn't have to deal with the same stressors. I mean, he was playing in THE game, he wasn't worrying about fake girlfriends, and he wasn't seeing so many accolades and awards dinners as this past season. The media was also more grand. The professional level however isn't going to get any easier for him in those respects when on the big stage.
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dcarey20


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mancunian Raven wrote:
I guess it depends on who is left at the end of the first round, in positions the Ravens have needs at.

If, say, Lane Johnson was somehow still on the board at #32, I'd be all for picking him to solidify that O-line, then going for Brown in the second.

And it also depends on free agency. If the Ravens managed to re-sign Ellerbe and/or Reed, that would influence the thinking too. Assuming Reed goes, I'd love to see Matt Elam become a Raven.


Agree with all of that
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