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Northland


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
Northland wrote:
I didn't even read the article. But I used the premise of the article to check the drafts out from 2006-2011 just to see how we really did. And 2006-2009 were ugly. And I'm not going back to bash Jerry, or engage in 20/20 hindsight to say we could've drafted this guy or that guy. I simply wanted to see what reality was.

The good news is the drafts from 2010 on have improved and landed us some very good starters. I hope that continues this year. The question is how many consecutive quality or above average drafts do we need to offset the 2006-2009 period? I don't know if that can be answered.

What is also troubling is our attitude towards the line of scrimmage during the 06-11 period. Other than Tyron Smith, no lineman, offensive or defensive, drafted before the third round. That's fine if you are finding diamonds in the rough, but we haven't found any lineman of substance, other than Smith with this methodology That strategy has failed. Hopefully we are at a point where we start to invest in the line of scrimmage with higher picks. The draft is a crapshoot and there are never guarantees of success, but I think our odds of success re linemen will improve if we start to invest premium picks.


The sad part is the gm thinks the o line has a lot of talent. He just doesn't buy into the formula of drafting o linemen with premium picks. Yet he changes coaches like shoes. For that reason I've accepted the Cowboys for what they are.

I don't buy into the rkg mantra and and changing the culture stuff. Ware , Witten , Rat and Tony are all part of the current culture. Wouldn't that make them part of the problem ? Or is bad coaching part of the bad culture in Dallas ? Or is it a bad gm ?


I don't buy into the RKG stuff either. I mean I can be accused of sitting on the fence here. Sure in a perfect world I would love to have All Pro Players who are squeaky clean. Guys you never hear a peep out of off the field like Ware. But then you have guys like Irvin. All Pro, hell all world receiver who indulged in lots of extra curricular activities that mos of us frowned on. But he produced on Sundays. Big time. Are we really going to walk away from guys who are less than clean but produce big time on Sundays? I'm not. I want to win and it takes all kinds. Sometimes the law or the league will step in and make a decision for you. But if it is up to me guys who produce for me play regardless of their personal indulgences.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think a lot of people misconstrue what RKG means. It does not speak of former choir boys. I think that's an oversimplification of what it is trying to convey.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I still think a lot of people misconstrue what RKG means. It does not speak of former choir boys. I think that's an oversimplification of what it is trying to convey.


I think 'RKG' consists of players who lay it all on the field when they are out there. Think Sean Lee, think Witten, and even with all the off-the-field stuff, Bryant fits in the category as well. These are players who eat, sleep and breath football and are willing to lay everything on the line to help the team win.

You saw Witten search high and low for a doctor who would clear him to play with a lacerated spleen. You saw Lee, when injured, put on a headset and help motivate and coach guys on defense. You saw Bryant take the field with the team in playoff contention, suffering from an injury that without surgery is likely to now affect him for the rest of his life, to try and help the team win.

Garrett wants players who love football and want to win. Who will work hard in practice to be the best they can be. Who will play smart, disciplined football. We all saw how frustrated he was time after time this season when the defense would take the field with 10 or 12 players, which is why Rob is now gone. I know this video is from 2009, but I think it speaks to what he wants in his players as a head coach.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I still think a lot of people misconstrue what RKG means. It does not speak of former choir boys. I think that's an oversimplification of what it is trying to convey.


I think 'RKG' consists of players who lay it all on the field when they are out there. Think Sean Lee, think Witten, and even with all the off-the-field stuff, Bryant fits in the category as well. These are players who eat, sleep and breath football and are willing to lay everything on the line to help the team win.

You saw Witten search high and low for a doctor who would clear him to play with a lacerated spleen. You saw Lee, when injured, put on a headset and help motivate and coach guys on defense. You saw Bryant take the field with the team in playoff contention, suffering from an injury that without surgery is likely to now affect him for the rest of his life, to try and help the team win.

Garrett wants players who love football and want to win. Who will work hard in practice to be the best they can be. Who will play smart, disciplined football. We all saw how frustrated he was time after time this season when the defense would take the field with 10 or 12 players, which is why Rob is now gone. I know this video is from 2009, but I think it speaks to what he wants in his players as a head coach.


Exactly what I am looking for - guys who produce on Sundays. And guys who produce tend to hard nosed, very disciplined, who live and breathe football. Isn't every team looking for this type of player? If every team is looking for this type of player what makes RKG different, or is it different from what other teams want in their players? If RKG will instill more focus and discipline I am all for it. But so far we are still one of the most undisciplined teams to take the field in terms of penalties committed and turnovers we give up.
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Football Mensa


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I still think a lot of people misconstrue what RKG means. It does not speak of former choir boys. I think that's an oversimplification of what it is trying to convey.


I think 'RKG' consists of players who lay it all on the field when they are out there. Think Sean Lee, think Witten, and even with all the off-the-field stuff, Bryant fits in the category as well. These are players who eat, sleep and breath football and are willing to lay everything on the line to help the team win.

You saw Witten search high and low for a doctor who would clear him to play with a lacerated spleen. You saw Lee, when injured, put on a headset and help motivate and coach guys on defense. You saw Bryant take the field with the team in playoff contention, suffering from an injury that without surgery is likely to now affect him for the rest of his life, to try and help the team win.

Garrett wants players who love football and want to win. Who will work hard in practice to be the best they can be. Who will play smart, disciplined football. We all saw how frustrated he was time after time this season when the defense would take the field with 10 or 12 players, which is why Rob is now gone. I know this video is from 2009, but I think it speaks to what he wants in his players as a head coach.


How frustrated were the fans watching the Baltimore game and watching Garrett flub clock management again ? Is Garrett the rkc ? Running a qb sneak on first down vs the Gmen in Dallas ? If you want your players to be rkg's maybe he should look in the mirror. There are a lot of players who would be considered rkg's but can't play. Give me talent that can play. When Austin and Ogletree were non chalantly walking back to the l.o.s. in the Bmore game when the clock was running down at the end of the first half, is this a rkg ? The offense looked unprepared again for an in game situation.

Randy Moss wasn't considered a rkg by Jerry. Huge mistake. This is simplification at it's finest. Give me talent who can ball.

One other thing regarding Garrett. With all of the talk about it was the plan all along to have a different playcaller I call bs. This too is simple. Why would you wait 2 years into your tenure to get a playcaller ? Your job is on the line. The season is on the line. Careers were being wasted yet he was going to wait 2 years to implement his plan ? No way !!
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football Mensa wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I still think a lot of people misconstrue what RKG means. It does not speak of former choir boys. I think that's an oversimplification of what it is trying to convey.


I think 'RKG' consists of players who lay it all on the field when they are out there. Think Sean Lee, think Witten, and even with all the off-the-field stuff, Bryant fits in the category as well. These are players who eat, sleep and breath football and are willing to lay everything on the line to help the team win.

You saw Witten search high and low for a doctor who would clear him to play with a lacerated spleen. You saw Lee, when injured, put on a headset and help motivate and coach guys on defense. You saw Bryant take the field with the team in playoff contention, suffering from an injury that without surgery is likely to now affect him for the rest of his life, to try and help the team win.

Garrett wants players who love football and want to win. Who will work hard in practice to be the best they can be. Who will play smart, disciplined football. We all saw how frustrated he was time after time this season when the defense would take the field with 10 or 12 players, which is why Rob is now gone. I know this video is from 2009, but I think it speaks to what he wants in his players as a head coach.


How frustrated were the fans watching the Baltimore game and watching Garrett flub clock management again ? Is Garrett the rkc ? Running a qb sneak on first down vs the Gmen in Dallas ? If you want your players to be rkg's maybe he should look in the mirror. There are a lot of players who would be considered rkg's but can't play. Give me talent that can play. When Austin and Ogletree were non chalantly walking back to the l.o.s. in the Bmore game when the clock was running down at the end of the first half, is this a rkg ? The offense looked unprepared again for an in game situation.

Randy Moss wasn't considered a rkg by Jerry. Huge mistake. This is simplification at it's finest. Give me talent who can ball.

One other thing regarding Garrett. With all of the talk about it was the plan all along to have a different playcaller I call bs. This too is simple. Why would you wait 2 years into your tenure to get a playcaller ? Your job is on the line. The season is on the line. Careers were being wasted yet he was going to wait 2 years to implement his plan ? No way !!


Is Garrett the RKC is the question that will be answered this year. No playoffs and he has to go.

Mensa you raise some very interesting questions with your examples especially Austin and Ogletree having no concept of the game situation or the time left. No sense of urgency at all. Could you have imagined Jimmy Johnson reacting to that sort of action - he would have blown a gasket.

Poor performing players, players making mental errors, too many men on the field, or not enough men on the field led to our DC getting fired and rightly so. Mr. Garrett has a litany of mistakes on his resume yet we continue to be fed this RKG nonsense. Every club wants hard nosed dedicated football players. The successful clubs also have hard nosed, focussed football coaches who won't tolerate the lack of discipline the Cowboys have exhibited. We have not made strides in terms of discipline under Garrett's watch. We continue to be a poorly focussed highly penalized team who turns the ball over. That's not RKG, RKC, or RKF (right kind of football), and right now I don't GAF (Give a @#$%) about this nonsense ever more. Let's instill some HPA (Hold Player's Accountable) and HCA (Hold Coaches Accountable) and see what happens.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy didn't have the salary cap as it is today to deal with.

Ogletree saw his playing time drastically decrease as the season went on and likely won't be brought back as Dwayne Harris stepped up in his place late in the year. Felix and his issues are likely gone. The "too many men on the field" I believe was a defensive issue, and last I checked our defensive coordinator is gone. We had issues with special teams, and last I checked...our ST coordinator is gone.

People complained about Garrett as an OC, and well...Garrett is now handing over playcalling duties to Bill Callahan so that he can better handle all parts of the team. For those of you who point out how other teams are successful with hard-nosed coaches yet gripe about penalties, St. Louis and Washington both ranked 30th and 31st in penalties this season...yet I'm sure most of you consider Fisher and Shanahan as "hard-nosed".

You don't need to call-out players in front of the media to be "hard-nosed" or to have the respect of your players. Is Garrett perfect? No, but then again no coach is. People point to the quick turn around Jim Harbaugh was able to bring about in San Francisco but forget about the talent Mike Nolan brought in the trenches during his term as head coach.

What did Garrett have to work with as a head coach when he finally took over? He had an aging offensive line built mostly of free agents. He had a secondary in shambles. He had a team that consisted of a bunch of players who were happy to take the check and mail it in on the field (Roy Williams, Barber, Olshansky, etc.).

In the three seasons he has been a head coach, we've slowly brought in a better influx of talent. In each year as a head coach, Garrett has used the draft to target areas of need. As such, it stands to reason with the majority of our off-season resources will be devoted to improving the trenches. I believe that with an improved offensive and defensive line, we'll see our talent at the skill positions shine, especially with a better supporting cast around Garrett which will free him up to do what he does best - lead a football team.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Jimmy didn't have the salary cap as it is today to deal with.

Ogletree saw his playing time drastically decrease as the season went on and likely won't be brought back as Dwayne Harris stepped up in his place late in the year. Felix and his issues are likely gone. The "too many men on the field" I believe was a defensive issue, and last I checked our defensive coordinator is gone. We had issues with special teams, and last I checked...our ST coordinator is gone.

People complained about Garrett as an OC, and well...Garrett is now handing over playcalling duties to Bill Callahan so that he can better handle all parts of the team. For those of you who point out how other teams are successful with hard-nosed coaches yet gripe about penalties, St. Louis and Washington both ranked 30th and 31st in penalties this season...yet I'm sure most of you consider Fisher and Shanahan as "hard-nosed".

You don't need to call-out players in front of the media to be "hard-nosed" or to have the respect of your players. Is Garrett perfect? No, but then again no coach is. People point to the quick turn around Jim Harbaugh was able to bring about in San Francisco but forget about the talent Mike Nolan brought in the trenches during his term as head coach.

What did Garrett have to work with as a head coach when he finally took over? He had an aging offensive line built mostly of free agents. He had a secondary in shambles. He had a team that consisted of a bunch of players who were happy to take the check and mail it in on the field (Roy Williams, Barber, Olshansky, etc.).

In the three seasons he has been a head coach, we've slowly brought in a better influx of talent. In each year as a head coach, Garrett has used the draft to target areas of need. As such, it stands to reason with the majority of our off-season resources will be devoted to improving the trenches. I believe that with an improved offensive and defensive line, we'll see our talent at the skill positions shine, especially with a better supporting cast around Garrett which will free him up to do what he does best - lead a football team.


Having a salary cap has nothing to do with having a disciplined or undisciplined team.

I don't recall seeing or reading anything about calling a player out in the media. But what is wrong with reading a player the riot act on the sideline for having no concept of the game situation?

Garrett was the OC for how many years and can we truly say the offense made strides? As far as Garrett handing over playcalling duties to Callahan we will never know whether it was his decision or Jerry's, and it is neither here nor there at this point. Callahan has had solid success in the past.

No argument that we have seen a better influx of talent over the last few seasons and that we better invest in the trenches.

I simply want a winning season and a playoff run. If that doesn't happen then I think we will have seen the last of Garrett.

Valid points about Shanahan and Fisher. How do you explain Mike Smith in Atlanta? Good solid club and as I understand it neither he, his staff, or the players take to penalties or mental mistakes too well. We can go back and forth on this point and there is no need to. Can we agree that a focussed, prepared club that commits few mistakes improves its' chances of winning? Regardless of what is going on with the rest of the league the Cowboys have been very oood at shooting themselves in the foot. Hard to progress when it's one step up and two steps back.

THe RKG stuff is just nonsense. Every club is looking for the hard nosed, lay it on the line, give everything you have every Sunday. If you suddenly have to pronounce that this is what you are looking for then isn't it an indictment of just how bad things have been?

Scrap the RKG stuff because it is obvious that all clubs desire this kind of player. Just focus on discipline, commitment, accountability, and smart football. It goes without saying.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree wholeheartedly that if we don't make the playoffs this season, it will likely be Garrett's last.

However, I wouldn't doubt it if he went on to have success elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:

I don't recall seeing or reading anything about calling a player out in the media. But what is wrong with reading a player the riot act on the sideline for having no concept of the game situation?


There is nothing wrong with that. Nor is it necessary. When I played Football my Head Coach was focused. Never Screamed. Never Cursed. But demanded respect. My position coach though would ride my [inappropriate/removed] until tomorrow. There are different ways to coach. My preference is like Coach Boom. Fiery & Passionate on the field. That doesn't work for everyone though.

Quote:
I simply want a winning season and a playoff run. If that doesn't happen then I think we will have seen the last of Garrett.


Most of us want to win. Very few here actually enjoy our failures. And I agree - barring something catastrophic next year is a make or break for Redball.

Quote:
THe RKG stuff is just nonsense. Every club is looking for the hard nosed, lay it on the line, give everything you have every Sunday. If you suddenly have to pronounce that this is what you are looking for then isn't it an indictment of just how bad things have been?

Scrap the RKG stuff because it is obvious that all clubs desire this kind of player. Just focus on discipline, commitment, accountability, and smart football. It goes without saying.


I don't think anyone is arguing that we have been bad for a very long time. I also think you are still simplifying - at least in my mind - RKG. Some clubs will go after talented-individual-oriented players. I don't think we ever will, as an example. We know one criteria is that players with a drug history aren't considered by this franchise. Fair or not, not all franchises hold that standard.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly that if we don't make the playoffs this season, it will likely be Garrett's last.

However, I wouldn't doubt it if he went on to have success elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.


Agree on both statements. He certainly wouldn't be the first coach to move on somewhere to ultimately have sucess.

Don't get me wrong I want Garrett to succeed, nothing would make me happier. But this RKG stuff just bugs me. I am beating a dead horse but it goes without saying get good players, coach them well, be disciplined and good things will happen. Don't think it needs a title or a marketing plan. Just go out and do it and be quiet about it. Sometimes less is more.

It was good to have a civil discussion that did not go on for pages with name calling and insults! We all share the same thing - wanting the Cowboys to win.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
It was good to have a civil discussion that did not go on for pages with name calling and insults! We all share the same thing - wanting the Cowboys to win.



It sure would be nice to see us hoisting a Lombardi Trophy sometime soon... Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Northland wrote:

I don't recall seeing or reading anything about calling a player out in the media. But what is wrong with reading a player the riot act on the sideline for having no concept of the game situation?


There is nothing wrong with that. Nor is it necessary. When I played Football my Head Coach was focused. Never Screamed. Never Cursed. But demanded respect. My position coach though would ride my [inappropriate/removed] until tomorrow. There are different ways to coach. My preference is like Coach Boom. Fiery & Passionate on the field. That doesn't work for everyone though.

Quote:
I simply want a winning season and a playoff run. If that doesn't happen then I think we will have seen the last of Garrett.


Most of us want to win. Very few here actually enjoy our failures. And I agree - barring something catastrophic next year is a make or break for Redball.

Quote:
THe RKG stuff is just nonsense. Every club is looking for the hard nosed, lay it on the line, give everything you have every Sunday. If you suddenly have to pronounce that this is what you are looking for then isn't it an indictment of just how bad things have been?

Scrap the RKG stuff because it is obvious that all clubs desire this kind of player. Just focus on discipline, commitment, accountability, and smart football. It goes without saying.


I don't think anyone is arguing that we have been bad for a very long time. I also think you are still simplifying - at least in my mind - RKG. Some clubs will go after talented-individual-oriented players. I don't think we ever will, as an example. We know one criteria is that players with a drug history aren't considered by this franchise. Fair or not, not all franchises hold that standard.


Agree with your points. As far as yelling at a player at some point when you have bonehead plays after bonehead plays you reach your limit and you make an example of someone. Different strokes for different folks though. Now none of us know what goes on behind closed doors in meeting rooms.

Has Garrett or anyone on the Cowboys ever explained fully what they mean by RKG?

Like I said on another post I think less is more and some things don't need to be said. They are obvious. Like getting good football players who don't have any known character issues at the time you get them, who lay it on the line in practice and games.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
Has Garrett or anyone on the Cowboys ever explained fully what they mean by RKG?


Nope. But most philosophies are fluid and difficult to define. I tend to think the fans focus on it more than the Club does.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Northland wrote:
Has Garrett or anyone on the Cowboys ever explained fully what they mean by RKG?


Nope. But most philosophies are fluid and difficult to define. I tend to think the fans focus on it more than the Club does.


Agree. It's hard to define and probably never has been. Let's move on.
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