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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 47870
Location: New New York
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Champ, I beleive you have access to PFF, is there any chance you could provide us with;
Levi in 2011 - Pass blocking snaps, Sacks/Hits/Hurries allowed
Nate in 2012 - Pass blocking snaps, Sacks/Hits/Hurries allowed
Cheers
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DJ_Fka
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 3278
Location: Brisvegas, Land Down Under
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Reading stats gets you into trouble.
I love how people who look at stats know what type of team, type of player we have etc.
Potter and Massie took their lumps, got better by the game, as you would hope.
We need guards, not tackles, unless Joeckel is there, exception only this year. |
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9624
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thing is the Guard prospects are better around #38 than the Tackles are.
It would make sense to address the position where the talent is richest.
Add Fisher + Warford and we don't have anymore needs on the OL. Let's give our QB's & RB's a chance to succeed.
Keim said he wants our OL to be more physical so there you go. Solid depth with Potter/Kelemete...
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 47870
Location: New New York
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DJ_Fka wrote: | Reading stats gets you into trouble.
I love how people who look at stats know what type of team, type of player we have etc.
Potter and Massie took their lumps, got better by the game, as you would hope.
We need guards, not tackles, unless Joeckel is there, exception only this year. |
The only reason we don't need a Left Tackle is because Levi Brown is serviceable. Nate Potter was a good short term stop gap. But his deficiencies in the running game are not made up for with plus pass blocking. Real nice guy to keep around considering his contract and ability for a backup. But not a long term starter at all.
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Patrick Peterson - 92 targets, 40 catches allowed, 602 yards, 6 TD's, 7 INT's
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9624
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.
Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'...
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 47870
Location: New New York
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DirtyDez wrote: | Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.
Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'... |
1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.
2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.
We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable.
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Patrick Peterson - 92 targets, 40 catches allowed, 602 yards, 6 TD's, 7 INT's
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9624
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| khodder wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.
Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'... |
1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.
2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.
We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable. |
We need to see it post-injury. He is below-average in pass-protection no matter what the advanced stats are projecting. If he was put in a spot where his protection could me masked and his run-blocking would be more valuable then I can get on board. If they continue to put him on the opposing team's #1 pass rusher then we're back to square-one.
If we take a Tackle at #7 I see no reason he'll be brought back seeing as how there has been no indication we'd move him inside.
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JohnnyV
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| khodder wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | Weren't you just touting Potter as a long term answer? I don't think it's fair to label Levi as serviceable until we see it. Still overweight and slow-footed. He'll be 29 next season coming off a full year being injured.
Oh and he makes 6.5M next season. Just sayin'... |
1 - Maybe, but I have gone back and watched 4 games in the past few days (Had a long weekend here) and Nate is not impressive at all.
2 - 29 is not old
3 - He may be slow footed, but is still a better pass blocker than Nate Potter
4 - He is one of the best run blocking Left Tackle's in the National Football League
5 - 6.5M is not an ugly figure more than you would like, but when he is the best LT option a team has and he is a neutral cut, you hang on to him and you play him.
6 - "Not fair to label Levi Serviceable until we see it." We have seen it, for the past 5 years we have seen it. Look how our entire line fell apart without Levi. We upgraded at RT, our C and LG was the same, we made a lateral move at RG and without Levi the offensive line, mostly in the run blocker, but also in pass blocking fell right off the map.
We need to get off the back of a guy who is a solid player at the LT spot just because we picked him 5th overall. Take draft position out of it. Ignore where he was drafted; Levi is a top 20 Left Tackle in the NFL, serviceable. |
I'll agree that it makes much more sense to take a kid like Warmack and keep levi rather than taking Fisher and kicking Levi to the curb and still having no solution at guard.
Don't get me wrong, would still take Fisher but you see where I'm going.
If we wanted to go cheap and young, we could sport something like this...
Levi, Potter, Sendlein, Warmack, Massey
A lot of options, but regardless, I am not as prone to ditch Levi as I once was especially after the OT nightmare we faced this season. Could be worse than having Potter and Brown as options at LT.
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LuckyNumber11
Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 1545
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi
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apollo14000
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 3748
Location: PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| LuckyNumber11 wrote: | | I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi |
While Potter has an edge over Levi as a pass protector, Levi has a HUGE edge over Potter as a run blocker. Overall, Levi is the better LT. But he's also expensive and coming of an injury so I hope Keim makes the right call on this one. |
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 47870
Location: New New York
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| LuckyNumber11 wrote: | | I believe that Potter fits our system better. Levi is slow, way slow. At least we know that Potter will get in front of the guy every play for his quickness. Levi, a great run blocker, doesn't pass block worth anything. Potter has a plus 1 on Levi as far as pass blocking goes which is why I like Potter over Levi |
Yet we are left with this; Levi allowed 56 QB (11.5 Sacks) pressures in 16 games last season. Nate Potter allowed at least 24 (7 sacks) in 6 starts plus the Green Bay game.
In terms of end product Nate is no better at protecting the Quarterback than Levi was.
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Patrick Peterson - 92 targets, 40 catches allowed, 602 yards, 6 TD's, 7 INT's
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Boise&cards Fan
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 2940
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Give me two great guards and some decent talks and I'll be happy.
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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The question with Potter is can he develop into a league average or better LT? We know Levi can't, his developmental days are pretty well over. If Potter can, he has to be given serious consideration.
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apollo14000
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 3748
Location: PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | | The question with Potter is can he develop into a league average or better LT? We know Levi can't, his developmental days are pretty well over. If Potter can, he has to be given serious consideration. |
That was Potter's main flaw coming out of college and a big reason why he dropped. Physically, there's just not a lot of potential there. He doesn't have the frame to add a lot more weight and strength, his athleticism is just ok, and he relies a lot of technique but that can only get you so far.
You also have to consider the type of scheme we run. I'm sure Potter would make a decent to good pure zone blocking LT but that's not what we run here so he's at a disadvantage.
I don't mean to bash Potter. Let's face it. He was a steal in the 7th round and if we got that kind of value with every late pick we'd be a very deep team. |
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iRobot
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 771
Location: Mesa, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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@PFF
Arizona's Bobby Massie led the NFL in sacks allowed with 13, but none of them came in the final 8 games
Part of the reason why the staff has to not be too concerned over the right side at tackle..
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