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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WaterBear56 wrote:
I still don't understand the scheme excuse. ZBS is only for run blocking and he wasn't bad at all in that. He was bad in pass protection which is not schematic. Clearly, injuries took their toll and he is not worth a multi-million dollar deal. Hopefully other teams see this and he resigns with us for 7-8M.


None of this is true.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WaterBear56 wrote:
I still don't understand the scheme excuse. ZBS is only for run blocking and he wasn't bad at all in that. He was bad in pass protection which is not schematic. Clearly, injuries took their toll and he is not worth a multi-million dollar deal. Hopefully other teams see this and he resigns with us for 7-8M.


None of this is true.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WaterBear56 wrote:
I still don't understand the scheme excuse. ZBS is only for run blocking and he wasn't bad at all in that. He was bad in pass protection which is not schematic. Clearly, injuries took their toll and he is not worth a multi-million dollar deal. Hopefully other teams see this and he resigns with us for 7-8M.


None of this is true.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.


I can't stress enough the issue with Jake Long is NOT play. He was average. Okay, great. Fine. The issues is the economics of the offensive line and his health. He has had sustained major injuries which have had a negative effect on his play on the field for the last 3 seasons. Injuries ENDED his last 2. He is on the Anthony Boselli train. Lit the league up first few years and out of the league in 7 because of health issues.

If Jake Long wants to come back and play for Miami for 5-6 million dollars, okay. I can live with that. I would welcome him back with wide open arms. But he wants double that. It's laughable. For a guy with knee, shoulder, biceps and triceps injuries/surgeries in the last 24 months, its LAUGHABLE. So I'm not about to waste 10 million dollars on a guy who is literally falling apart and has too big of an ego to know it just to watch him go down Week 14 with another injury when I can spend that money on 2-3 quality players for this football team. Give me Sebastian Vollmer and Fred Davis for approximately the same amount of money Jake Long is asking for. Would you REALLY rather have Jake Long over Vollmer and Davis?
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.



Please post that "film breakdown" .... While Long was playing the role of accessory to the murder of Ryan Tannehill while he was on the field, everybody was talking about plans for the LT position next season. Then Jonathan Martin came in with all eyes on him. WE all knew that he had struggles at RT. But when we saw him play LT, his natural position, we saw the quick feet and we saw improved play. We all breathed a sigh of relief. Then that patriots game came and the sky began to fall.
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ViolentMonk71


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.


I can't stress enough the issue with Jake Long is NOT play. He was average. Okay, great. Fine. The issues is the economics of the offensive line and his health. He has had sustained major injuries which have had a negative effect on his play on the field for the last 3 seasons. Injuries ENDED his last 2. He is on the Anthony Boselli train. Lit the league up first few years and out of the league in 7 because of health issues.

If Jake Long wants to come back and play for Miami for 5-6 million dollars, okay. I can live with that. I would welcome him back with wide open arms. But he wants double that. It's laughable. For a guy with knee, shoulder, biceps and triceps injuries/surgeries in the last 24 months, its LAUGHABLE. So I'm not about to waste 10 million dollars on a guy who is literally falling apart and has too big of an ego to know it just to watch him go down Week 14 with another injury when I can spend that money on 2-3 quality players for this football team. Give me Sebastian Vollmer and Fred Davis for approximately the same amount of money Jake Long is asking for. Would you REALLY rather have Jake Long over Vollmer and Davis?


I can't stress enough that the coaches appear to be comfortable with Martin. His footwork wan't poor, his technique and strength are what hindered him the most, add that to the fact that he was essentially learning a new position and you can see why he struggled at times (others he did very well). I find it funny that we are willing to afford Tannehill the ability to grow, but we can't allow Martin the same? I'm not saying bring in competition id nothing else you will at least have very solid depth, but I not ready to just move on after one season of adjusting to the NFL.

As for Long....he's not worth the money when much better values are going to be available in FA that will not only fit the scheme better, but also are a hell of a lot healthier. Long is essentially gone....he believes that he should make 10 million or more a year and he will get it from some team that will regret the decision as soon as he goes down with an injury yet again.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.



Please post that "film breakdown" .... While Long was playing the role of accessory to the murder of Ryan Tannehill while he was on the field, everybody was talking about plans for the LT position next season. Then Jonathan Martin came in with all eyes on him. WE all knew that he had struggles at RT. But when we saw him play LT, his natural position, we saw the quick feet and we saw improved play. We all breathed a sigh of relief. Then that patriots game came and the sky began to fall.


The film breakdown was done by a 3rd party. PFF. They have Martin ranked 76 out of 80 tackles in the NFL. Long allowed 4 sacks, 7 QB hits and a total of 10 QB pressures. Martin allowed 6 sacks, 4 hits and 47 Qb hurries. That's right, FORTY SEVEN QB hurries. 47 is DEAD LAST in the entire NFL for the position. In fact, its the worst of ANY NFL lineman in any of the positions. That's dead last amongst well over 200 offensive linemen. Plus he had lots of blocking help, whereas Jake Long had virtually none.

The SINGLE good game that Martin had all season was at LT against Buffalo. His other starts at LT were not good. He got KILLED against SF. Was mediocre against Jacksonville, and sucked against NE.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:


I can't stress enough that the coaches appear to be comfortable with Martin. His footwork wan't poor, his technique and strength are what hindered him the most, add that to the fact that he was essentially learning a new position and you can see why he struggled at times (others he did very well). I find it funny that we are willing to afford Tannehill the ability to grow, but we can't allow Martin the same? I'm not saying bring in competition id nothing else you will at least have very solid depth, but I not ready to just move on after one season of adjusting to the NFL.

As for Long....he's not worth the money when much better values are going to be available in FA that will not only fit the scheme better, but also are a hell of a lot healthier. Long is essentially gone....he believes that he should make 10 million or more a year and he will get it from some team that will regret the decision as soon as he goes down with an injury yet again.


coaches were also "comfortable" going into last season with receiving corps we had. How did that work out? Coaches may like Martin. He may be the nicest guy to walk on the planet. He might be the hardest worker on the team. He may also be handsome. I don't really care. He was a liability on the football field.

As for allowing him to grow, who said I wasn't allowing him to grow? I am simply saying, what WE KNOW is that he sucked last year. SUCKED HARD. He was a 2nd round pick so I hope to god he gets better. Thankfully, strength seemed to be a major issue. That is something that he can and should improve upon. I have no desire to cut Martin or to bench him automatically. I am simply saying he was the worse player on the offensive line last year and counting on him to protect Tannehill's blind side is a huge mistake. We need to bring in competition and not be afraid to bench him if he doesn't improve SIGNIFICANTLY this off season.
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ViolentMonk71


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
ViolentMonk71 wrote:


I can't stress enough that the coaches appear to be comfortable with Martin. His footwork wan't poor, his technique and strength are what hindered him the most, add that to the fact that he was essentially learning a new position and you can see why he struggled at times (others he did very well). I find it funny that we are willing to afford Tannehill the ability to grow, but we can't allow Martin the same? I'm not saying bring in competition id nothing else you will at least have very solid depth, but I not ready to just move on after one season of adjusting to the NFL.

As for Long....he's not worth the money when much better values are going to be available in FA that will not only fit the scheme better, but also are a hell of a lot healthier. Long is essentially gone....he believes that he should make 10 million or more a year and he will get it from some team that will regret the decision as soon as he goes down with an injury yet again.


coaches were also "comfortable" going into last season with receiving corps we had. How did that work out? Coaches may like Martin. He may be the nicest guy to walk on the planet. He might be the hardest worker on the team. He may also be handsome. I don't really care. He was a liability on the football field.

As for allowing him to grow, who said I wasn't allowing him to grow? I am simply saying, what WE KNOW is that he sucked last year. SUCKED HARD. He was a 2nd round pick so I hope to god he gets better. Thankfully, strength seemed to be a major issue. That is something that he can and should improve upon. I have no desire to cut Martin or to bench him automatically. I am simply saying he was the worse player on the offensive line last year and counting on him to protect Tannehill's blind side is a huge mistake. We need to bring in competition and not be afraid to bench him if he doesn't improve SIGNIFICANTLY this off season.


We've been through debate before....agree to disagree...

I was simply bringing up that the people whose jobs are on the line may believe he is their starting Tackle.....I could be wrong, they may see him as a liability and go hard to fill to position through a better value (not cheap) tackle in FA and draft one with one of their first 2 picks. My support is less a ringing endorsement of Martin, but more of a support of Philbin and what he wants. Ireland is Ireland and I'm not wanting to bring that issue up, but it does seem like Philbin has a plan and I want to see it executed.

As for being comfortable with the WR....Ireland even stated that the team had 3s, 4s, and 5s and needed some ones and two at the position... unfortunately for the team, they had to playl with the hand they dealt themselves. It sucked, but building a team can't be done in one off-season.
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Conquest8089


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conquest8089 wrote:
If anybody has the answer to this question Please PM ME.

Jake Long will be 28 in May. He's a man blocking tackle and not suited for a zone scheme ideally.

Long's Agents CAA Tom Condon have floated $ 50 Million Number. If you're trying to secure him that deal, what teams would be interested. Obvious suitor is Chicago. But what other team would be willing to engage in a bidding war, which is necessary to get him up to 10 Million a year.

Would Jake be willing to go to Arizona or San Diego?

Also have to think about it in this Context, CAA represents Long and also Andre Smith Jr, Sebastian Vollmer, Sam Baker, Barry Richardson & Doug Free (Cut Eventually)

Here's How You Get your Clients Maximum Value:

RT Andre Smith Jr (26)

- Negotiate Cincinnati against San Diego & Arizona. That possibility hurts other clients.

LT Sam Baker (2

- Zone Fit negotiate Atlanta against Miami. Also St. Louis where Baker's O Line Coach Paul Bodreau from ATL was hired in 2012.

RT Sebastian Vollmer (29)

- Avoid Franchise Tag & push New England to pay more against New York Giants, Arizona, & San Diego.

Getting Chicago or St. Louis to pay top value requires Miami to be Involved throughout the proces
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
ViolentMonk71 wrote:


I can't stress enough that the coaches appear to be comfortable with Martin. His footwork wan't poor, his technique and strength are what hindered him the most, add that to the fact that he was essentially learning a new position and you can see why he struggled at times (others he did very well). I find it funny that we are willing to afford Tannehill the ability to grow, but we can't allow Martin the same? I'm not saying bring in competition id nothing else you will at least have very solid depth, but I not ready to just move on after one season of adjusting to the NFL.

As for Long....he's not worth the money when much better values are going to be available in FA that will not only fit the scheme better, but also are a hell of a lot healthier. Long is essentially gone....he believes that he should make 10 million or more a year and he will get it from some team that will regret the decision as soon as he goes down with an injury yet again.


coaches were also "comfortable" going into last season with receiving corps we had. How did that work out? Coaches may like Martin. He may be the nicest guy to walk on the planet. He might be the hardest worker on the team. He may also be handsome. I don't really care. He was a liability on the football field.

As for allowing him to grow, who said I wasn't allowing him to grow? I am simply saying, what WE KNOW is that he sucked last year. SUCKED HARD. He was a 2nd round pick so I hope to god he gets better. Thankfully, strength seemed to be a major issue. That is something that he can and should improve upon. I have no desire to cut Martin or to bench him automatically. I am simply saying he was the worse player on the offensive line last year and counting on him to protect Tannehill's blind side is a huge mistake. We need to bring in competition and not be afraid to bench him if he doesn't improve SIGNIFICANTLY this off season.


So you want to be heavy handed with a rookie forced to play two positions and give the multi million dollar cap killing vet a pass ?
I'm all for bringing in competition, but it's he is the investment and he will get the snaps to develop.
I'd take this a little more seriously when we are more direct about how Jake Long played.
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Maddogg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my 2 cents, but if I'm a defensive coordinator, going into the 2012 season, where am I going to apply pressure? On Jake Longs side or Jonathan Martins side?

I'm not saying Martin was All World at LT after Long went down but I think he played pretty damn well at LT for a rookie who was switched from RT to LT. Now this is my opinion, I have no worries, I have lost no sleep or threatened my wife with a divorce about the possibility of Martin being our starting LT in 2013.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be OK with Martin starting next season at LT.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Jonathan Martin was one of the worst starting tackles in the entire NFL last season. He graded out in the bottom 5 of the entire league. Anyone who thinks its a good idea to put him in as our LT next season is high as a kite. If people want to let Long walk and find a cheaper alternative, fine, but the idea that we simply plug one of the worst tackles in the game in as our starter on the right side is ludicrous. Martin must get stronger. He must improve his foot work and he sure as heck shouldn't be given a starting gig ANYWHERE on the offensive line without competition.

As for Long, why is that people think that the light came on for Incognito late in the season, but the light can't come on for Jake Long? Jake Long had about half a season in the ZBS and, I agree, was mediocre. Incognito was gawd awful, definitely worse than Long, for the first part of the season. Incognito got used to the style of play and improved. I see no reason at all the same can't be expected from Long. With that said, I agree he is no where near worth 10 million a season. However, he was better than any offensive Tackle we had on the team last year and the film breakdown proves that. The only valid questions to me are, what is he worth and will he play for us for that.

If we let Long walk, which might be the right plan, then it looks to me like we need two starting tackles next season. Martin can't be counted on.


I can't stress enough the issue with Jake Long is NOT play. He was average. Okay, great. Fine. The issues is the economics of the offensive line and his health. He has had sustained major injuries which have had a negative effect on his play on the field for the last 3 seasons. Injuries ENDED his last 2. He is on the Anthony Boselli train. Lit the league up first few years and out of the league in 7 because of health issues.

If Jake Long wants to come back and play for Miami for 5-6 million dollars, okay. I can live with that. I would welcome him back with wide open arms. But he wants double that. It's laughable. For a guy with knee, shoulder, biceps and triceps injuries/surgeries in the last 24 months, its LAUGHABLE. So I'm not about to waste 10 million dollars on a guy who is literally falling apart and has too big of an ego to know it just to watch him go down Week 14 with another injury when I can spend that money on 2-3 quality players for this football team. Give me Sebastian Vollmer and Fred Davis for approximately the same amount of money Jake Long is asking for. Would you REALLY rather have Jake Long over Vollmer and Davis?


If you think Long will take 5-6 million to play for anyone you are crazy. If Long is tageting 10M+, he will definately get 8M. I also think you guys severely underestimate teams need for a LT. Miami is going to franchise Jake Long. Much the same way they franchised Solai. They have too. This would be a different arguement if Jonathan Martin did not show signs of being a bust. Martin is a liability and cannot be trusted to protect PERIOD. His number one job descripton is to protect and he cannot do it. Sure he may improve but there is not that improvement from one year to the next.

The right move is to franchise Jake Long and continue building the line through the draft. The real question is if they should pay Sean Smith, which I am not so sure is a good idea. He is far from a top tier cornerback.
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