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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are trying to have an offensive revolution and we are trying to catch the rest of the league to the point we fired a 10 win coach.

To have this offensive revolution and change we need to make an investment.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
I’m not sure what Fasano’s market would be but unless we are grabbing him on the cheap I don’t think he would be a good enough upgrade for what we will look to do at the TE position…I like the other two FA pickups a lot…

Banks is one of my favourite players for our D in this draft but I struggle to see us going CB in round 1 given how well our starters played last year…I totally agree that we need to start building for the future but I just don’t see us going in that direction…Brown was great at KSU but his major struggle at Miami always worries me a little...I like him but are weary at the same time…Toilolo would be a decent add…King is a great route runner but plays soft altho for the 4 receiver sets you describe I reckon he would be a good deep threat complement…I really like Schwenke after watching him in the senior bowl practices I went and watched Cal against Ohio State & Washington…he won’t make it past the 4th in a weak centre class…

My biggest concern here would be the lack of a new LG…I think we are in desperate need of a new starter there as I have little faith in Carimi as a full time starter at LG.

The LG concern is one shared by many (including myself) but Trestman also cut down sacks in MTL by 60% with largely the same personnel his first year there, and may look to go more that route. Also, Kromer has had a lot of success in taking college OTs and making them stud OGs, and my thought is that both Carimi and James Brown are strong candidates to fit that bill. Adding Bushrod should improve both OT positions. As for CB we could possibly be looking at both of those guys being gone after next year but almost certainly one of them IMO, and I'd rather have a good player in hand instead of having to scramble next offseason. Can't have too many good CBs playing ARod and Stafford 4 games a year. Emery says he goes BPA and Banks may very well be BPA there anyway.

I don't see Fasano as a great TE but he is a virtual guarantee for 35-40 catches and 5 TD based on his history which is double what we got from Davis. He is a professional TE who I think will come pretty cheap on a 2-3 year deal, with Toilolo taking over the #1 spot sooner than later. FWIW I see Toilolo being a factor right away too. I also think the slot WR will be more involved in the WCO than under Tice with the 50-60 combined TE catches I expect from Fasano and Toilolo being plenty.


As much as Trestman cutting down the sacks with his scheme and the same personnel is impressive I don’t think it will be as easy to do that at the NFL level and I can't see the same happening if we don't add talent up front…Kromer has done a great job of taking guys from college LT and moving them into OG but I’m just not sold he can do the same here with guys who will have already developed habits in the pros under Tice…all the guys Kromer made a success of where guys who had only worked with him at the pro level and it is much more difficult to unlearn a bad habit than to learn a new good habit.

We don't know that they got "bad habits" last year though from the outside. Tice was a good OL coach but he wasn't the OL coach last year, or at least not primarily. Putting those guys at LG next to a real LT would go a long way in helping them out too.


I think their play...and most of the Oline for that matter would point to that...it will be interesting to see what Kromer does but I just can't see us not adding an OG early.

And I certainly wouldn't oppose that, but we have a lot of needs and not a lot of picks.


But we have 1 position that has been holding this team back and has gotten a GM and HC fired.

We have a lot of needs.

But we have 1 Achilles heel and that is the OL.

Coaching cannot fix a talent void and that is what we have. We literally have nothing at LG.

And you can tell that from the, what, 2 games Brown played there? I recall you being very high on him coming in as a UDFA last year. How can you give up on a guy so fast? If we draft Cooper in the first round and he doesn't step in as an immediate upper echelon player will you write him off as fast as you have Carimi and Brown? San Frabcisco has arguably the best OL in the league but if they had been as quick as you to dismiss guys then Iupati and Davis wouldn't even be there. Not every guy is a day 1 stud. I don't disagree that the OL needs to be better but players need to get a chance to develop too. You don't want to do that with Gabe or Brown (though for some reason you were comfortable with it with Webb).
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
I’m not sure what Fasano’s market would be but unless we are grabbing him on the cheap I don’t think he would be a good enough upgrade for what we will look to do at the TE position…I like the other two FA pickups a lot…

Banks is one of my favourite players for our D in this draft but I struggle to see us going CB in round 1 given how well our starters played last year…I totally agree that we need to start building for the future but I just don’t see us going in that direction…Brown was great at KSU but his major struggle at Miami always worries me a little...I like him but are weary at the same time…Toilolo would be a decent add…King is a great route runner but plays soft altho for the 4 receiver sets you describe I reckon he would be a good deep threat complement…I really like Schwenke after watching him in the senior bowl practices I went and watched Cal against Ohio State & Washington…he won’t make it past the 4th in a weak centre class…

My biggest concern here would be the lack of a new LG…I think we are in desperate need of a new starter there as I have little faith in Carimi as a full time starter at LG.

The LG concern is one shared by many (including myself) but Trestman also cut down sacks in MTL by 60% with largely the same personnel his first year there, and may look to go more that route. Also, Kromer has had a lot of success in taking college OTs and making them stud OGs, and my thought is that both Carimi and James Brown are strong candidates to fit that bill. Adding Bushrod should improve both OT positions. As for CB we could possibly be looking at both of those guys being gone after next year but almost certainly one of them IMO, and I'd rather have a good player in hand instead of having to scramble next offseason. Can't have too many good CBs playing ARod and Stafford 4 games a year. Emery says he goes BPA and Banks may very well be BPA there anyway.

I don't see Fasano as a great TE but he is a virtual guarantee for 35-40 catches and 5 TD based on his history which is double what we got from Davis. He is a professional TE who I think will come pretty cheap on a 2-3 year deal, with Toilolo taking over the #1 spot sooner than later. FWIW I see Toilolo being a factor right away too. I also think the slot WR will be more involved in the WCO than under Tice with the 50-60 combined TE catches I expect from Fasano and Toilolo being plenty.


As much as Trestman cutting down the sacks with his scheme and the same personnel is impressive I don’t think it will be as easy to do that at the NFL level and I can't see the same happening if we don't add talent up front…Kromer has done a great job of taking guys from college LT and moving them into OG but I’m just not sold he can do the same here with guys who will have already developed habits in the pros under Tice…all the guys Kromer made a success of where guys who had only worked with him at the pro level and it is much more difficult to unlearn a bad habit than to learn a new good habit.

We don't know that they got "bad habits" last year though from the outside. Tice was a good OL coach but he wasn't the OL coach last year, or at least not primarily. Putting those guys at LG next to a real LT would go a long way in helping them out too.


I think their play...and most of the Oline for that matter would point to that...it will be interesting to see what Kromer does but I just can't see us not adding an OG early.

And I certainly wouldn't oppose that, but we have a lot of needs and not a lot of picks.


But we have 1 position that has been holding this team back and has gotten a GM and HC fired.

We have a lot of needs.

But we have 1 Achilles heel and that is the OL.

Coaching cannot fix a talent void and that is what we have. We literally have nothing at LG.

And you can tell that from the, what, 2 games Brown played there? I recall you being very high on him coming in as a UDFA last year. How can you give up on a guy so fast? If we draft Cooper in the first round and he doesn't step in as an immediate upper echelon player will you write him off as fast as you have Carimi and Brown? San Frabcisco has arguably the best OL in the league but if they had been as quick as you to dismiss guys then Iupati and Davis wouldn't even be there. Not every guy is a day 1 stud. I don't disagree that the OL needs to be better but players need to get a chance to develop too. You don't want to do that with Gabe or Brown (though for some reason you were comfortable with it with Webb).


Carimi has had 18 games and he got worse in every game I watched.

Talented players need time to develop and I they are not that talented then you are just wasting time.

Cooper might not be great day 1, but he has the potential to be good.

Who in this group truly has potential who has not shown that they are not very good?

James Brown is the only one and as you said and as we saw he needs a lot more development.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.
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G08


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you have to look at how much weight/strength Carimi lost with his knee injury; I don't think he was playing at 100%.

I'd like to see a FULL off-season devoted to strength training/development before I label him a bust.
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Sugashane


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.


I have to disagree that the OL was the entire reason, though if you mean the final straw then we are in agreement. That was undoubtedly one issue but the terrible offensive drafting Angelo had was embarrassing. How many first round players actually played at above a 3rd round talent? Tommie Harris was a great pick, but was injured. Angelo deserves zero blame for that but look at his track history. Terrell, Colombo (injuries, he might have been very good but I am not convinced), Grossman, Benson (over Rodgers? When Rex had been healthy for what? 5-6 games over 2 seasons?), Williams, and Olsen. Olsen would have been a better option as a full time WR than bringing in stonehands Williams, but he traded him off so we could have Davis step up.

Martz could have been fred, Tice moved up, and Olsen back to TE, and at least given Jay a safety valve he has not had since Olsen's departure. That alone may have decreased the sack total. And yes, the pick we got for him went to getting Marshall, doesn't matter, we still had the 3rd that we used on Hardin. I'd take Olsen over Hardin in a heartbeat, though I do think Hardin could develop nicely.

Put that together with the fact he allowed zero stability on offense. Our only non-pathetic year on offense was with every starting lineman being a free agent, as was our number one WR, TE, and HB. I think both of our FBs were even drafted elsewhere! That is a fast-food approach to making a team, and never pans out for more than a year or two, in which you better have a lot of guys developing. While we spotted talent on defense we were a nightmare on offense, and have been all but the 2006 season. Not just with the OL, but every skill position has been relatively weak or one bright spot with zero depth. We didn't have a legitimate number 2 receiver until Jeffery since Berrian went to FA (though he declined rapidly). Even our 1 and 2 were no better than an average 3rd option. Angelo failed on MANY level.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.
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pigsooie5


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.

Great post AZ.. Really nailed it on this one. I have to agree that Carimi and Brown should not be given up on so soon, however, relying on either heading into the season is setting us up for a potential disaster. I see little to no chance Phil doesn't bring in an upper echilon Guard in the offseason. But all in all if I had to chose Carimi/Brown > Webb/Scott for the future. You know Webb and Scott have hit their ceiling at this point.
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bears2308


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're spot on with the Brown pick. Being a huge KU fan (not fun during the football season) I watch a lot of the Big 12. He is a high motor guy that led a great K-State defense the past couple of years. He's a little small to play MLB but should excel at SLB until he adds a little weight.

I'm not a huge fan of Fasano and believe if we go with Bushrod over Levitre then the $ should go to someone with more talent. Matt Moore seems to be in all Bear mocks and rightfully so. Campbell was nothing short of a bummer.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:

Carimi has had 18 games and he got worse in every game I watched.

Talented players need time to develop and I they are not that talented then you are just wasting time.

Cooper might not be great day 1, but he has the potential to be good.

Who in this group truly has potential who has not shown that they are not very good?

James Brown is the only one and as you said and as we saw he needs a lot more development.


Is there a reason you ignore that fact that Carimi has never spent an off-season doing real NFL level conditioning? His rookie season was the strike and last off season he was rehabing fron injury. Carimi's biggest problem last year was strength and getting bull rushed but you don't build strength in season you do it in the off season.
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SOCalBearsFan54


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.


I agree 100%, we can't give up on Carimi or Brown. Brown hardly played and that's unfair to judge him, he was a rookie and I was shocked he fell to us. Carimi dislocated his knee. That's a very tough injury to come back from and trust your body it takes time. It became quite obvious as the season went on the he didn't trust his knee and his pass pro and mobility attributed to that. A full of season and Kromer will do wonders for him same with Brown. I'm excited to see what Kromer can get out of these 2. The Webb saga is hopefully coming to an end. He is nothing more than a backup.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOCalBearsFan54 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.


I agree 100%, we can't give up on Carimi or Brown. Brown hardly played and that's unfair to judge him, he was a rookie and I was shocked he fell to us. Carimi dislocated his knee. That's a very tough injury to come back from and trust your body it takes time. It became quite obvious as the season went on the he didn't trust his knee and his pass pro and mobility attributed to that. A full of season and Kromer will do wonders for him same with Brown. I'm excited to see what Kromer can get out of these 2. The Webb saga is hopefully coming to an end. He is nothing more than a backup.
Webb was clearly the 2nd best OL on the team this year, yet HE'S no more than a backup? He didn't give up a sack or penalty in the last 6 games, had only 1 game he gave up more than 1 sack (GB #1). Yet people want to argue that he's the problem, yet Carimi who was downright uncompetitive this year is better? I don't get it. If you didn't know Webb was going to take time to develop you simply weren't paying attn. He was a 7th round rookie from a small school who was taking a huge jump in competition.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOCalBearsFan54 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.


I agree 100%, we can't give up on Carimi or Brown. Brown hardly played and that's unfair to judge him, he was a rookie and I was shocked he fell to us. Carimi dislocated his knee. That's a very tough injury to come back from and trust your body it takes time. It became quite obvious as the season went on the he didn't trust his knee and his pass pro and mobility attributed to that. A full of season and Kromer will do wonders for him same with Brown. I'm excited to see what Kromer can get out of these 2. The Webb saga is hopefully coming to an end. He is nothing more than a backup.


No one is saying give up on we are not saying cut them.

We are saying that we should upgrade from them because Brown showed nothing of note in 3 games and Carimi was totally incompetent.

Our OL is not going to get better unless we inset in it.

Playing musical positions and hoping to coach up guys who aren't any good is what we have been doing and it has not worked.

We need to invest in the OL.

CB: 1 Pro Bowler [Jennings], 1 All Pro/Multi Time Pro Bowler [Tillman]

LB: 1 Multi Time All Pro [Briggs], 1 Competent Starter [Roach]

OL: 1 Competent Starter with a torn ACL [Louis]

People are suggesting getting new furniture for our house when there is no roof on the house. There are needs and then there are GLARING, CRIPPLING needs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you factor in need I can't see Banks in our top 20.
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TexasBearsFan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
SOCalBearsFan54 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
An inability to protect Cutler got a GM fired and has now gotten a HC fired.

I doubt Emery or Trestman want to rely on the development of Carimi and James Brown.

In SF case I am more inclined to rely on the development of The 11th and 18th picks in the draft a far cray from an injured 29th pick and an UDFA.

So just so that I'm fully up to speed, when we brought in Brown after last year's draft he was a steal who inexplicably fell and should be good but after seeing almost no reps at all now he's scrap metal who isn't worthy of the opportunity to develop? Carimi, a 1st round pick, gets less than half a season before you are calling for him to be shipped out, much or all of which appears to have been with him playing at less than 100%. But then you're fine with University of Texas washout and 7th round nobody J'Marcus Webb getting 3 full seasons to learn on the job in spite of him being statistically the worst player at his position in the whole league in 2010 and 2011, and only for you to call for his ouster now once he finally actually shows some promise the second half of last season. Not for nothing, and I know we disagree on Carimi, but I am having a really hard time following the logic in any of that.


I agree 100%, we can't give up on Carimi or Brown. Brown hardly played and that's unfair to judge him, he was a rookie and I was shocked he fell to us. Carimi dislocated his knee. That's a very tough injury to come back from and trust your body it takes time. It became quite obvious as the season went on the he didn't trust his knee and his pass pro and mobility attributed to that. A full of season and Kromer will do wonders for him same with Brown. I'm excited to see what Kromer can get out of these 2. The Webb saga is hopefully coming to an end. He is nothing more than a backup.


No one is saying give up on we are not saying cut them.

We are saying that we should upgrade from them because Brown showed nothing of note in 3 games and Carimi was totally incompetent.

Our OL is not going to get better unless we inset in it.

Playing musical positions and hoping to coach up guys who aren't any good is what we have been doing and it has not worked.

We need to invest in the OL.

CB: 1 Pro Bowler [Jennings], 1 All Pro/Multi Time Pro Bowler [Tillman]

LB: 1 Multi Time All Pro [Briggs], 1 Competent Starter [Roach]

OL: 1 Competent Starter with a torn ACL [Louis]

People are suggesting getting new furniture for our house when there is no roof on the house. There are needs and then there are GLARING, CRIPPLING needs.


You're not saying cut them, but in the very same breath you're saying they aren't any good. Well, if they aren't any good, why should we be keeping them?

You know that if we cut Carimi he's going to go someplace and turn into a competent starter for years and years, just like Mark Colombo did.

And what is this about Brown? He showed nothing of note in 3 games of his rookie season? And now he's no good and needs replacing? You know what Emery should do? Trade every draft pick every year for players. That way we don't have to listen to the nonsense about every single draft pick being terrible when they aren't Pro Bowlers after 2 games.
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