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Would you be okay with Pryor going forward?
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What would you like Oakland to do at QB next season?
Start Palmer, develop Pryor
56%
 56%  [ 37 ]
Start Pryor, Carson mentor
18%
 18%  [ 12 ]
Start Palmer, cut Pryor, get a new QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Start Pryor, draft QBOTF
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Other
9%
 9%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 65

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BBIB


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 8771
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:

+1

People need to cool it with the Pryor comparisons. So far on this forum I have heard him compared to Newton, Vick, and now Kaepernick. Not a single one of those guys are alike, so how can Pryor be like three different guys?

Saying Pryor is like Kaeperick because he can run is like saying Flacco is like Brees because they are pocket passers.


No the drastic difference is that it's far more difficult to duplicate elite passing from the pocket than effective play from the pistol offense

The ability to run is one of the most significant aspects of the pistol offense

The passing reads are easier to make and the passing lanes are much wider because of defenses respecting the threat of the run
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Burgesskills


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.


You don't have to be Tom Brady to complete passes in that offense because receivers will be far more open in that offense than any other offense

There are no receivers completely wide open in the NFL like they are in college but that offense is the closest thing to it

You don't have to thread the needle 8-10+ times a game in that offense
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G


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.


IF TP could pass as well as CK there wouldn't be a problem. The thing is that doesn't get fixed playing a game, it's in practice reps that he should be doing in the off-season...Geno Smith looks way more like CK than Pryor. I don't think Geno will be as good as CK...Al Davis was right for wanting CK. Humble yet Confident, talented, personable, should become a great QB...
Pryor needs to keep working and earn a job. I think we keep him and develop him more but in no way would I hand him a starting position. If we cut Palmer then I hope we draft a QB to compete with Pryor. I'd also like a vet too but if we're completely rebuilding then maybe draft 2 QB's like Washington did last year and have them compete with Pryor.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.


This is the biggest problem I have with Pryor. If he can iron out this big wrinkle in his game then he'd be on another level. But this is such a crucial issue I can't overlook with him. I'm not saying he won't get there but usually this is the kind of thing where either you have it or you don't.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.


This is the biggest problem I have with Pryor. If he can iron out this big wrinkle in his game then he'd be on another level. But this is such a crucial issue I can't overlook with him. I'm not saying he won't get there but usually this is the kind of thing where either you have it or you don't.


The thing with the Pistol offense is that you don't have to be even as good as Kaepernick to be productive

The uniqueness of that offense is that it's not as specialized as a traditional offense

In a traditional offense the ranking of effectiveness is ALL about how good of a passer you are in terms of arm strength, accuracy, and anticipation.

But in that pistol offense you have advantages that aren't in a traditional offense

There are less players in coverage
There are more open receievers
There are less pass rushers
It's easier to see down field
It's easier to see down field after the playaction fake


So if Pryor becomes just an average passer that would be good enough because of all those advantages
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Django


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
As much as I hope TP gets an opportunity to start, after watching the NFC championship today, Kap has a rocket arm. He made some of the nicest, crispest passes on the money. TP is just as fast, but there aren't too many in this league with a stronger arm than Kap...not just strong accurate.

If TP could replicate his passing ability then I would be thrilled, but after today that's asking a lot.


This is the biggest problem I have with Pryor. If he can iron out this big wrinkle in his game then he'd be on another level. But this is such a crucial issue I can't overlook with him. I'm not saying he won't get there but usually this is the kind of thing where either you have it or you don't.


I always think people got the Kaep/Pryor thing wrong.

Pryor, as BBIB posts, doesnt have to fire the ball in their like Kaepernick. He's not Kaep....thats ok. What he needs to do is improve the zip on his passes to an adequate job for an NFL QB.

If Pryor gets to a......Alex Smith level. I'd take it (not saying he will..but if he does...) I think Pryor is a better athlete than Kaep. He's stronger, faster, quicker. However, Kaep has 2 huge advantages over Pryor . One is mentally and two is arm strength. I realize he'll never throw in Kaep's league. But then again.....Matt Ryan will never compete with Joe Flacco in terms of arm strength.

Kaep is ahead mentally though. Is it practice reps? Is it more focused coaching, or is it age? Idk. Kaep is making audibles, he's confident, he's got that belief in his ability. Maybe all the changing....Has allowed Pryor to develop that. But I give him a better shot here...because he works so hard and has a guy like Carson who actually gives a crap about him.

If Pryor can get to a "Alex Smith" level of zip....or best case scenario "Russell Wilson level of zip"

THEN we have something. However, it truly does stem from horrible footwork. Maybe its from the lack of reps. But I saw where he would throw off his back foot for no reason and no pressure around him......It floated in the air forever predictably.

He's got to step into those throws and throw his hardest every time. Gives him a better shot.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

+1

People need to cool it with the Pryor comparisons. So far on this forum I have heard him compared to Newton, Vick, and now Kaepernick. Not a single one of those guys are alike, so how can Pryor be like three different guys?

Saying Pryor is like Kaeperick because he can run is like saying Flacco is like Brees because they are pocket passers.


No the drastic difference is that it's far more difficult to duplicate elite passing from the pocket than effective play from the pistol offense

The ability to run is one of the most significant aspects of the pistol offense

The passing reads are easier to make and the passing lanes are much wider because of defenses respecting the threat of the run


How many pistol offenses have you seen in the NFL? Washington, Carolina, and SF? Just because those three offenses were effective in the pistol does not mean any offense that runs it will be effective, or even more effective than they were in a traditional offense. RGIII and Newton are two of the most dangerous young QBs in the NFL, Kaepernick certainly looks like he is on his way, and Pryor has proven nothing compared to those guys, other than the fact that he is nowhere close to their level. I understand the theories behind your reasoning, but it doesn't mean any running QB can turn a pistol offense into an effective unit.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
BBIB wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

+1

People need to cool it with the Pryor comparisons. So far on this forum I have heard him compared to Newton, Vick, and now Kaepernick. Not a single one of those guys are alike, so how can Pryor be like three different guys?

Saying Pryor is like Kaeperick because he can run is like saying Flacco is like Brees because they are pocket passers.


No the drastic difference is that it's far more difficult to duplicate elite passing from the pocket than effective play from the pistol offense

The ability to run is one of the most significant aspects of the pistol offense

The passing reads are easier to make and the passing lanes are much wider because of defenses respecting the threat of the run


How many pistol offenses have you seen in the NFL? Washington, Carolina, and SF? Just because those three offenses were effective in the pistol does not mean any offense that runs it will be effective, or even more effective than they were in a traditional offense. RGIII and Newton are two of the most dangerous young QBs in the NFL, Kaepernick certainly looks like he is on his way, and Pryor has proven nothing compared to those guys, other than the fact that he is nowhere close to their level. I understand the theories behind your reasoning, but it doesn't mean any running QB can turn a pistol offense into an effective unit.


Again you all have it backwards. I'm not being reactionary because it's working I PREDICTED it would work just like I PREDICTED that if you put a dual threat QB on a team that highlighted their strengths and masked their weaknesses and gave them an actual defense they could compete for a Super BOwl, something that the 49ers will be doing for years to come

And it's not just a blind prediction again it's based off of numbers

In the pistol offense the QB doesn't have to face 7-8 defenders in coverage because they will get gashed in the running game

And if they dedicate too many players to the line of scrimmage to stop the run they will get gashed in the open holes in the defense that are left

If they play cover zero they will either get beat deep or if the QB passes the LOS the defense will have their back to them and get gashed on the ground by the QB keeper

It's a pick your poison offense that's not just some flavor of the month because it actually has strategy and plans to attack the defense all over the field and has actual counters to what a defense tries to do to attack it


And even if you didn't believe that it could last 5+ years from now which unless defenses can put more players on the field, it will last, is that justification enough not to employ it as opposed to the status quo


The reward is far greater than the risk
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Burgesskills


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The offense Chip Kelly ran at Oregon was fast and up tempo. He had a lot of speed to play with...but this is the NFL. The defenses in the NFL are much faster than in college. Chip Kelly never played a down in the NFL, never coached any position in the NFL....there is no guarantee he succeeds, let alone revolutionizes the most polarized position in the game.
There have been a lot of offensive innovators to come along and some brilliant offensive minds, but none of them have been able to plug whichever QB they wanted toÖitís not that easy, especially at this level. There have also been some great coaches on the collegiate level who fizzle in the NFLÖ.Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban, Bobby Petrino, Butch Davis, and Dennis Erickson to name a few. These guys were all great college coaches and busted out of the NFL.
I think the Pistol formation (it is just a formation) and the read option will stay in todayís NFL for awhile. There are a lot of dual threat QBís who can run a play out of the pistol and who will find lanes with the read option. Atlanta tried to take it away yesterday, giving Frank Gores a lot of space. In the NFL Chip Kelly will have to find a concrete starter and hope he is more than solid. Iím not saying a fill in canít find some moderate success, because that happens now with some teams, but no no no, itís not going to be like Shannahanís running back carousel. By the way, Olandis Garry and Mike Anderson did have good seasons, but Terrell Davis was dominant and his offensive production could not be replaced and Clinton Portis was a starÖ.
I personally feel like Kelly will be back in college within three seasons, maybe four.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
BBIB wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

+1

People need to cool it with the Pryor comparisons. So far on this forum I have heard him compared to Newton, Vick, and now Kaepernick. Not a single one of those guys are alike, so how can Pryor be like three different guys?

Saying Pryor is like Kaeperick because he can run is like saying Flacco is like Brees because they are pocket passers.


No the drastic difference is that it's far more difficult to duplicate elite passing from the pocket than effective play from the pistol offense

The ability to run is one of the most significant aspects of the pistol offense

The passing reads are easier to make and the passing lanes are much wider because of defenses respecting the threat of the run


How many pistol offenses have you seen in the NFL? Washington, Carolina, and SF? Just because those three offenses were effective in the pistol does not mean any offense that runs it will be effective, or even more effective than they were in a traditional offense. RGIII and Newton are two of the most dangerous young QBs in the NFL, Kaepernick certainly looks like he is on his way, and Pryor has proven nothing compared to those guys, other than the fact that he is nowhere close to their level. I understand the theories behind your reasoning, but it doesn't mean any running QB can turn a pistol offense into an effective unit.


Again you all have it backwards. I'm not being reactionary because it's working I PREDICTED it would work just like I PREDICTED that if you put a dual threat QB on a team that highlighted their strengths and masked their weaknesses and gave them an actual defense they could compete for a Super BOwl, something that the 49ers will be doing for years to come

And it's not just a blind prediction again it's based off of numbers

In the pistol offense the QB doesn't have to face 7-8 defenders in coverage because they will get gashed in the running game

And if they dedicate too many players to the line of scrimmage to stop the run they will get gashed in the open holes in the defense that are left

If they play cover zero they will either get beat deep or if the QB passes the LOS the defense will have their back to them and get gashed on the ground by the QB keeper

It's a pick your poison offense that's not just some flavor of the month because it actually has strategy and plans to attack the defense all over the field and has actual counters to what a defense tries to do to attack it


And even if you didn't believe that it could last 5+ years from now which unless defenses can put more players on the field, it will last, is that justification enough not to employ it as opposed to the status quo


The reward is far greater than the risk


So, basically you are saying the Pistol formation is unstoppable? I applaud your break down, and its all good in theory, but nothing in the NFL is black and white as you just laid that out.

I have never once said the Pistol is a gimmick or that it wont last, so you can drop that argument. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm not saying it can't work, I'm saying just because it should do this or that in theory doesn't mean it will actually work out that way.

Pryor will never face 7-8 defenders in coverage in any formation because no defense will ever respect his throwing ability. They can commit the defenders to the LOS because even with easier reads and all that jazz, he still will struggle to get the ball on target. None of our WRs warrant double coverage, and even less so with Pryor at QB, so it's not like they need extra guys in coverage.

Honest question: when breaking down how this formation works and what it causes the defense to do, are you only looking at SF, WAS, and CAR, or have you watched game tape on college teams that use it, to include teams with QBs who are great runners but putrid passers? Because I can guarantee you a team will defend the Pistol differently against Pryor than they would against RGIII because one can beat you running and passing and one can only beat you one way.

Now, if you are simply saying that Pryor would perform better in the Pistol than in a traditional formation, I would agree with you. But I don't think we could put him in that formation and expect a successful offense, then I disagree.
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NickButera


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:

Pryor will never face 7-8 defenders in coverage in any formation because no defense will ever respect his throwing ability. They can commit the defenders to the LOS because even with easier reads and all that jazz, he still will struggle to get the ball on target. None of our WRs warrant double coverage, and even less so with Pryor at QB, so it's not like they need extra guys in coverage.


This is the reason why the pistol will not work with 2 or 3 average passers who can run the ball. BBIB's argument is that any 2 or 3 QB's can run a teams offense that is designed in his way as long as they are average at passing and can run. Problem is, if you are average at throwing, the whole backfield is never going to drop back into coverage, it will be basic man or zone coverage that everyone else see's and the defense won't be leaving everyone open as theorized.

If this was the case then Michael Vick would have been able to sustain long term success because he is one of the more dynamic runners in the league, and still is. But teams do not respect his arm. His opponents would constantly watch for the run, and yet his WR's were not constantly open. RG3, Kaep, and Wilson all are very good pocket passers, well above average. Which is why they are succeeding, they are not succeeding only because they are dual threat and are in the right scheme. This is selling them short and is almost disrespectful to what they have accomplished, saying that their success passing is predicated on hitting wide open receivers all the time. Kaep specifically has made some of the most amazing 'thread the needle' type passes since he's been starting, same goes with RG3. Wilson is one of the more intelligent rookies I've seen in a while with a command of the offense that you see out of many seasoned veterans. Their success is based off of a lot more than just scheme.

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of holes in this theory and it seems strange to think that it can always work when it has in fact, so far, never worked. Not at least how I understand that you say it can. I have yet to see a team sustain long term success run by 2 or 3 QB's on the same team who can run and are average passers. Average passers have never sustained long term success no matter what other attributes they possess.

I think you should tweak your theory a bit, if you are a great passer and a great runner, you are going to see success. But that isn't predicated on the pistol formation, or any scheme, it's based on his ability to pass and run at a high level.
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Nuke


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to interrupt the Pistol Stroke-A-Thon to say that I'm for letting the best QB in camp get the job. I don't care if it's CP, TP, a rookie, a FA, or the Pope.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuke wrote:
Just wanted to interrupt the Pistol Stroke-A-Thon to say that I'm for letting the best QB in camp get the job. I don't care if it's CP, TP, a rookie, a FA, or the Pope.


Word out of Vatican City is that the Pope's got a nice spiral.
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I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Nuke wrote:
Just wanted to interrupt the Pistol Stroke-A-Thon to say that I'm for letting the best QB in camp get the job. I don't care if it's CP, TP, a rookie, a FA, or the Pope.


Word out of Vatican City is that the Pope's got a nice spiral.


i heard he trains with tebow and kaufmann in the offseason
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