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amazingandre


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Peyton Manning & Aaron Rodgers did more to cost their teams games this weekend than Schaub did ours. Since we last engaged this topic we have learned that Tom Brady is better than Schaub while playing in Foxboro in January. Guess what - he is now the best EVER in the playoffs! Matt Ryan got lucky yesterday. Luck, Dalton and even RG3 were BAD last weekend and Ponder couldn't answer the bell. Ben, Eli, Brees, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Freeman, Cutler and a dozen other QBs didn't get there.

The Texans are simply not as good as the Patriots and need to take steps to narrow further the gap, including figuring out how to get in Brady's face up the middle which is the one proven way to disrupt him. We also need offensive tools better than Posey/Jean/Martin/Casey, and viable Right Tackle and for Kubiak to figure out how to call plays in the red zone that actually have a prayer of working. Where is our James Jones, Golden Tate, Torrey Smith, Erik Decker opposite the #1 as there aren't a ton of teams that make it to the division round of the playoffs without at least one really good corner? Friggin Belicheck just stores up weapons and unleashes them like they're some big surprise, but remind me how many 2nd rounders we just have stashed on our bench? We know Schaub needs to get better as well, especially in knowing when he has to make things happen vs. just throwing balls away and the hurry up offense has been abysmal since day 1 under Kubiak but Schaub also sucks at it. Any TJ Yates talk is just kneejerk garbage. Schaub was good enough yesterday to beat the 2011 Ravens while Yates was a joke.


First off, those other qbs are part of struggling teams, no great qb (Drew Brees as an example) can over come a garbage team and lead them to the playoffs, so don't try to prove your point about Schaub while down grading qbs who's team sucks. And while Manning and Rodgers both lost, last I checked they didn't get shut down by the Patriots defense, the PATRIOTS, who aren't that special.....and don't say we scored 28 points, because we all know that half those points were garbage.

Next, Im not disagreeing that we need another playmaker, in fact Im on record saying we need a BIG TIME wr free agent, not just another draft pick. BUT, top 10 qbs make their wide outs better, not the other way around. Plenty of examples out there, Big Ben for Holmes, Eli for his revolving door of number 2s, what about Brady and all his millions of different rbs and wrs......point is great qbs make their wide out better by being a good qb. Its about ball placement, extending plays and giving guys a chance to actually make a freakin play on the ball.

I will also say that I think Gary is hampering the ability for Schaub to actually improve, which I will discuss later. So don't think Im being a blind hater, because Im not, I have no incentive for Matt to suck, I want to win a super bowl regardless of who is the qb. But, I will discuss how I view players, especially ones I think are holding us back, like Schaub.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
Dawgtx wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Peyton Manning & Aaron Rodgers did more to cost their teams games this weekend than Schaub did ours. Since we last engaged this topic we have learned that Tom Brady is better than Schaub while playing in Foxboro in January. Guess what - he is now the best EVER in the playoffs! Matt Ryan got lucky yesterday. Luck, Dalton and even RG3 were BAD last weekend and Ponder couldn't answer the bell. Ben, Eli, Brees, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Freeman, Cutler and a dozen other QBs didn't get there.

The Texans are simply not as good as the Patriots and need to take steps to narrow further the gap, including figuring out how to get in Brady's face up the middle which is the one proven way to disrupt him. We also need offensive tools better than Posey/Jean/Martin/Casey, and viable Right Tackle and for Kubiak to figure out how to call plays in the red zone that actually have a prayer of working. Where is our James Jones, Golden Tate, Torrey Smith, Erik Decker opposite the #1 as there aren't a ton of teams that make it to the division round of the playoffs without at least one really good corner? Friggin Belicheck just stores up weapons and unleashes them like they're some big surprise, but remind me how many 2nd rounders we just have stashed on our bench? We know Schaub needs to get better as well, especially in knowing when he has to make things happen vs. just throwing balls away and the hurry up offense has been abysmal since day 1 under Kubiak but Schaub also sucks at it. Any TJ Yates talk is just kneejerk garbage. Schaub was good enough yesterday to beat the 2011 Ravens while Yates was a joke.


My sentiments exactly. Schaub is what he is....and what that is, is better than 65-75% than most of the other QB's out there. Granted, he is no Brady, Manning, or Rodgers....but there are very few of them out there. So you have to improve all the other phases, and give him tools to succeed.


That's all well and good, but this isn't 15 years ago. You cannot win long-term unless your QB is the best player on your team. If we just shrug our shoulders and accept that Schaub is our QB, then we are essentially giving up on contending for the next two or three seasons.

Game management at quarterback is not acceptable in today's NFL.


We were in the final 4 in the AFC. We are already contenders and will be again next year. Schaub beat Manning once and if Manning played like he did this week, I have no doubt that the Texans would have beaten him too. I am NOT dismissing your argument as there is certainly is validity to the fact that there may come a time where we place Schaub in the Alex Smith box and need to make a bold move like Harbaugh did, but I just don't think we're there yet just because Schaub got outplayed by a guy getting close to "best ever" status. If the Ravens get throttled this week, do you think they are going to let Flacco walk because he's not as good as Brady? While its been a long time since a sub-elite QB won a Super Bowl (although Eli remains elite-lite in my book because he only plays that way when everything falls in place perfectly), if we're just talking about "contending" the AFC is only 2 years removed from Mark Sanchez being a back to back AFC Championship game starter and our offense is light years from what theirs was, and our defense isn't that far off when healthy. We were 1 game away from playing the Pats at home which I at least give us a punchers chance of winning.

I'm not sure this is the year to grab a guy to groom behind Schaub as a possible successor vs. Yates who was absolutely drafted to be a long-term backup (like Kubiak was). I do think it is worth while to keep this on the table in case an extraordinary value falls to us especially with an extra pick in the 3rd. When you look back at the past few years, there have been a few that would have at least been a bit interesting like Foles and Cousins in the 3rd/4th this year, Mallett in 11, McCoy in 10. I don't see any of those as better than Schaub, (and starting Russell Wilson as a rookie 3rd rounder was just a ridiculously bold move by maverick Pete Carrol) but I do think it is worth us spending more time than usual this offseason scouting potential future starting QBs (sorry Coogs, Keenum's future is in coaching with that arm). I also think it's time to start identifying any players in college now that might project as higher picks in 2014 or 2015 recognizing that it is exceedingly rare to grab an elite QB outside the first 2 rounds (no Johnny Football debate yet, please).

Remember, Schaub is signed thru 2016 with a total of $14 million in bonus remaining that accelerates if he is cut plus escalating salaries of $7.2 mil, $10, $12.5, $14.5. Cutting him this year (which won't happen) would mean a crippling $21.2 million hit, 2014 hit would be $20.5 million, 2015 is $19.5 million, 2016 is $18 million. There are options in between that would allow us to split the hit between two seasons, but understand that ditching your franchise QB truly means rebuilding which doesn't make a ton of sense with our roster that is mostly in it's prime AND with our hall of fame WR likely with only a 2-3 year window left before age really starts catching up.

BTW - I DO know that there is not a single QB FA or trade target that would be an upgrade over Schaub in 2013 and the TJ Yates argument simply ignores the reality of his skillset which is inferior in every way to Schaub aside from mobility which is like saying the Broncos were better off with Tebow because of his legs.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Peyton Manning & Aaron Rodgers did more to cost their teams games this weekend than Schaub did ours. Since we last engaged this topic we have learned that Tom Brady is better than Schaub while playing in Foxboro in January. Guess what - he is now the best EVER in the playoffs! Matt Ryan got lucky yesterday. Luck, Dalton and even RG3 were BAD last weekend and Ponder couldn't answer the bell. Ben, Eli, Brees, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Freeman, Cutler and a dozen other QBs didn't get there.

The Texans are simply not as good as the Patriots and need to take steps to narrow further the gap, including figuring out how to get in Brady's face up the middle which is the one proven way to disrupt him. We also need offensive tools better than Posey/Jean/Martin/Casey, and viable Right Tackle and for Kubiak to figure out how to call plays in the red zone that actually have a prayer of working. Where is our James Jones, Golden Tate, Torrey Smith, Erik Decker opposite the #1 as there aren't a ton of teams that make it to the division round of the playoffs without at least one really good corner? Friggin Belicheck just stores up weapons and unleashes them like they're some big surprise, but remind me how many 2nd rounders we just have stashed on our bench? We know Schaub needs to get better as well, especially in knowing when he has to make things happen vs. just throwing balls away and the hurry up offense has been abysmal since day 1 under Kubiak but Schaub also sucks at it. Any TJ Yates talk is just kneejerk garbage. Schaub was good enough yesterday to beat the 2011 Ravens while Yates was a joke.


First off, those other qbs are part of struggling teams, no great qb (Drew Brees as an example) can over come a garbage team and lead them to the playoffs, so don't try to prove your point about Schaub while down grading qbs who's team sucks. And while Manning and Rodgers both lost, last I checked they didn't get shut down by the Patriots defense, the PATRIOTS, who aren't that special.....and don't say we scored 28 points, because we all know that half those points were garbage.

Next, Im not disagreeing that we need another playmaker, in fact Im on record saying we need a BIG TIME wr free agent, not just another draft pick. BUT, top 10 qbs make their wide outs better, not the other way around. Plenty of examples out there, Big Ben for Holmes, Eli for his revolving door of number 2s, what about Brady and all his millions of different rbs and wrs......point is great qbs make their wide out better by being a good qb. Its about ball placement, extending plays and giving guys a chance to actually make a freakin play on the ball.

I will also say that I think Gary is hampering the ability for Schaub to actually improve, which I will discuss later. So don't think Im being a blind hater, because Im not, I have no incentive for Matt to suck, I want to win a super bowl regardless of who is the qb. But, I will discuss how I view players, especially ones I think are holding us back, like Schaub.


AX2 - I'm willing to concede to some of your argument, which is greatly aided by more level headed reasoning like this than "dump Schaub for TJ Yates" which I expect from drunk morons at sports bars, not the mostly informed and intelligent folks here. Sure, we're all allowed to have our post-game reactionary takes, but ultimately I think some space will afford us the ability to see that this season was a solid step forward in our development, but clearly we are going up against a dynasty in New England blocking our route to the Super Bowl and need to also be well aware of how fast they closed the gap on us in Indy.

As for your counter-argument, I still think you are too quick to dismiss Schaub's relative standing as a Pro Bowl QB ahead of a guy who has won Super Bowls like say Big Ben. The Steelers had the #1 defense AGAIN this year, Pro Bowl Center & TE, two really good WRs, and a 1st round RB in Mendenhall and 2 other RBs in Dwyer/Redman in the same ballpark as Tate. Their offensive system has failed them 2 years in a row and needs to be tweaked again this year but Ben shares plenty of blame as well. Sure Ben, had some decent playoff moments to elevate them in the years they won, but the defense and run game were the constant. Similar story with the Giants. As for Brees, let's not separate him from Sean Payton who has as much of a talent gap as an offensive mind on Kubiak as Brees does vs. Schaub. Think Kubiak would know what to do with a guy like Sproles? Ever have confidence that Kubiak would actually outcoach or out gameplan a decent opponent?

The way I see it, our need list has never been smaller or less difficult to fill. RT, WR2, CB3, RB2, NT, ILB are all items that can be efficiently addressed in the draft and a few strategic FA signings that are actually possible due to the deft cap work done this offseason clearly with 2013 in mind. Kubiak and Smith need to figure out what can be done to address the red zone offense, 3rd down efficiency, and adding a dynamic component to incorporate alongside the steady approach with Arian, OD, and AJ. Without question, Schaub HAS to improve his ability to run a hurry up offense and he needs to know the difference between throwing a ball away in the 1st quarter vs. needing to do whatever it takes (even running) in the closing moments especially in a playoff game. Any which way, I do think 2013 provides the last best opportunity to finally break through or it is worth a much deeper conversation about whether Kubiak and Schaub have it in them to be champions.

BTW - One of the first things that would convince me that Kubiak is willing to do what it takes is to fire Joe Marciano (or politely accept his resignation/retirement). Change is a healthy thing and in a results oriented game, Marciano's units have not been up to par two seasons in a row and sticking your 30 year old starting safety back there returning kicks is not a long-term answer. I also would LOVE to see us add some sort of creative young mind to counter the predictable conservative funk Kubiak/Dennison have gotten into.
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kenney


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
kenney wrote:
Dawgtx wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Peyton Manning & Aaron Rodgers did more to cost their teams games this weekend than Schaub did ours. Since we last engaged this topic we have learned that Tom Brady is better than Schaub while playing in Foxboro in January. Guess what - he is now the best EVER in the playoffs! Matt Ryan got lucky yesterday. Luck, Dalton and even RG3 were BAD last weekend and Ponder couldn't answer the bell. Ben, Eli, Brees, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, Freeman, Cutler and a dozen other QBs didn't get there.

The Texans are simply not as good as the Patriots and need to take steps to narrow further the gap, including figuring out how to get in Brady's face up the middle which is the one proven way to disrupt him. We also need offensive tools better than Posey/Jean/Martin/Casey, and viable Right Tackle and for Kubiak to figure out how to call plays in the red zone that actually have a prayer of working. Where is our James Jones, Golden Tate, Torrey Smith, Erik Decker opposite the #1 as there aren't a ton of teams that make it to the division round of the playoffs without at least one really good corner? Friggin Belicheck just stores up weapons and unleashes them like they're some big surprise, but remind me how many 2nd rounders we just have stashed on our bench? We know Schaub needs to get better as well, especially in knowing when he has to make things happen vs. just throwing balls away and the hurry up offense has been abysmal since day 1 under Kubiak but Schaub also sucks at it. Any TJ Yates talk is just kneejerk garbage. Schaub was good enough yesterday to beat the 2011 Ravens while Yates was a joke.


My sentiments exactly. Schaub is what he is....and what that is, is better than 65-75% than most of the other QB's out there. Granted, he is no Brady, Manning, or Rodgers....but there are very few of them out there. So you have to improve all the other phases, and give him tools to succeed.


That's all well and good, but this isn't 15 years ago. You cannot win long-term unless your QB is the best player on your team. If we just shrug our shoulders and accept that Schaub is our QB, then we are essentially giving up on contending for the next two or three seasons.

Game management at quarterback is not acceptable in today's NFL.


We were in the final 4 in the AFC. We are already contenders and will be again next year. Schaub beat Manning once and if Manning played like he did this week, I have no doubt that the Texans would have beaten him too. I am NOT dismissing your argument as there is certainly is validity to the fact that there may come a time where we place Schaub in the Alex Smith box and need to make a bold move like Harbaugh did, but I just don't think we're there yet just because Schaub got outplayed by a guy getting close to "best ever" status. If the Ravens get throttled this week, do you think they are going to let Flacco walk because he's not as good as Brady? While its been a long time since a sub-elite QB won a Super Bowl (although Eli remains elite-lite in my book because he only plays that way when everything falls in place perfectly), if we're just talking about "contending" the AFC is only 2 years removed from Mark Sanchez being a back to back AFC Championship game starter and our offense is light years from what theirs was, and our defense isn't that far off when healthy. We were 1 game away from playing the Pats at home which I at least give us a punchers chance of winning.

I'm not sure this is the year to grab a guy to groom behind Schaub as a possible successor vs. Yates who was absolutely drafted to be a long-term backup (like Kubiak was). I do think it is worth while to keep this on the table in case an extraordinary value falls to us especially with an extra pick in the 3rd. When you look back at the past few years, there have been a few that would have at least been a bit interesting like Foles and Cousins in the 3rd/4th this year, Mallett in 11, McCoy in 10. I don't see any of those as better than Schaub, (and starting Russell Wilson as a rookie 3rd rounder was just a ridiculously bold move by maverick Pete Carrol) but I do think it is worth us spending more time than usual this offseason scouting potential future starting QBs (sorry Coogs, Keenum's future is in coaching with that arm). I also think it's time to start identifying any players in college now that might project as higher picks in 2014 or 2015 recognizing that it is exceedingly rare to grab an elite QB outside the first 2 rounds (no Johnny Football debate yet, please).

Remember, Schaub is signed thru 2016 with a total of $14 million in bonus remaining that accelerates if he is cut plus escalating salaries of $7.2 mil, $10, $12.5, $14.5. Cutting him this year (which won't happen) would mean a crippling $21.2 million hit, 2014 hit would be $20.5 million, 2015 is $19.5 million, 2016 is $18 million. There are options in between that would allow us to split the hit between two seasons, but understand that ditching your franchise QB truly means rebuilding which doesn't make a ton of sense with our roster that is mostly in it's prime AND with our hall of fame WR likely with only a 2-3 year window left before age really starts catching up.

BTW - I DO know that there is not a single QB FA or trade target that would be an upgrade over Schaub in 2013 and the TJ Yates argument simply ignores the reality of his skillset which is inferior in every way to Schaub aside from mobility which is like saying the Broncos were better off with Tebow because of his legs.


I posted from my phone before a job interview and thus wasn't allowed to give as detailed a response as I probably should have, but I agree with everything you just said: Schaub is pretty good, got us to where we are, and there are no better options available for trade, in FA, or in this year's draft -- I'm not saying dump Schaub (right now), but I am expressing pessimism about this team's ceiling with him.

The Texans lost because they were out-coached and out-quarterbacked. I would take the majority of Houston's starters (especially on defense) over New England's. As I said before the NE game, this team is pretty much capped at where it is as long as it is tied to both Kubiak and Schaub.

My one hope is that there was something to Knapp's connection to both Schaub and Yates and that we are able to bring him back in as some kind of assistant with Karl Dorrell in order to coach Schaub and hopefully "limit his limitedness."
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
I also would LOVE to see us add some sort of creative young mind to counter the predictable conservative funk Kubiak/Dennison have gotten into.


It would help Schaub and the non-primary receivers if the Texans had a more expansive passing game. They have a great variety of screen passes and play action routes but those are both play types that are a reaction to the defense. As far as a sustaining passing game, Houston are not very advanced by modern NFL standards and I would like to see that change.

I'm not saying they should completely change the way they do things by any means, but it would be nice to see them be able to have more of a spread passing game when the running game isn't going or if they think have favorable matchups against a particular opponent. The way the team is now, they pretty much only go 4 wide when it's 3rd and long or in a hurry up situation(and then the occasional wrinkle where Foster will motion wide and they run some kind of simple pass play like a throw to Foster), and the types of plays they run out of those are extremely limited and I think that's something that could be improved just with adding some new play concepts.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always Apollo flawless discussion skills and I agree with literally every point you've made.

Although I would argue where Andre Johnson is right now in skill set, we would be better served looking for a wide receiver with #1 type ability.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should change this thread name to Nick Foles 2013 Laughing

I doubt Chip Kelley keeps him around since he doesn't fit what he needs at QB to run his offense.

I bet Andy Reid trys and possibly gets him but id give up our 3rd for him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.
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kenney


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.


If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.


If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.


I think Kenney hit the nail on the head. Nobody is in love with Schaub & his negative rushing yardage (the ONLY starter with double digit rushes and -9 yards total) and bubble gum arm, but he is our QB for at least two more years so give the man some weapons and tell him that he has to at least ATTEMPT to make a play on 3rd down rather than throwing the ball to some random person on the sideline.

Also, we need to be looking for his replacement (this year - EJ Manuel) or next year (Manziel, Miller, Boyd, etc.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

jch1911 wrote:
kenney wrote:
Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.


If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.


I think Kenney hit the nail on the head. Nobody is in love with Schaub & his negative rushing yardage (the ONLY starter with double digit rushes and -9 yards total) and bubble gum arm, but he is our QB for at least two more years so give the man some weapons and tell him that he has to at least ATTEMPT to make a play on 3rd down rather than throwing the ball to some random person on the sideline.

Also, we need to be looking for his replacement (this year - EJ Manuel) or next year (Manziel, Miller, Boyd, etc.)


It's a difference between complaining for the sake of complaining or actually realistically trying to assess our status and best route to take the next step to winning Super Bowls, not just make playoff appearances. Simple fact is that Schaub is amongst the top 5 QBs in the AFC by any measure of evaluating QBs including stats, wins, or any place in between defining the top 75% QBs. Brady and Manning have occupied #1 and #2 for at least a dozen years now, yet only have 4 rings between them so clearly somebody is winning championships with QBs somewhere between #3 and #5. Not going to rehash my Big Ben take, but he's been to 3 Super Bowls as well and is in the same vicinity of Schaub as a two-time Pro Bowler who needs other aspects of the team to be peaking to get to the promised land. Gannon was the last AFC QB outside the big 3 to play in a Super Bowl and I think comparisons with Schaub are valid there as a QB who was very good at a system built around his skillset and then of course, there is Trent Dilfer who is too quickly dismissed as a just a game manager QB as nobody else managed that transcendent Ravens team to another Super Bowl.

Plenty of NFC QBs fit the mode of getting to Super Bowls while not being Pro Bowlers like Hasselbeck, Grossman, McNabb, Delhomme, Brad Johnson, Kerry Collins, and really Kurt Warner is a comparable during the Arizona year. Not going to engage the Eli debate, but you will never convince me that he has ever been even the 3rd best QB in the NFC but rather hovers around 5-6. Rodgers and Brees are clearly ahead of the rest in the NFC yet only have 1 ring a piece with all those others in the mix plus possibly Kaepernick this year so again, you can get to a Super Bowl with a QB that is not as good as the opposing QB or we'd have had nothing but Brady/ Manning vs. Brees/Rodgers every season instead of the 2 times it has happened.

People forget that even Brady was more of a game manager type his first 5 years until Belichick opened up their offense and asked Brady to throw 35 times a game and 4,000 yards a season. Belichick also recognized that he needed to stay ahead of the curve and adds a huge new wrinkle every few seasons whether it was Welker out of the slot, Moss vertically, Gronk/Hernandez as the two TE attack, and now he's got the Ridley/Vareen/Woodhead thing going on. Hell, Brandon Lloyd is practically an afterthought up there, but just think for a second about the difference between what the Texans have done at #2 WR in Schaub's 6 years and the Patriots signing a WR like Lloyd who put up 1,450 yards and 11 TDs with Kyle Orton throwing him the ball.

The Texans have essentially had Schaub/Foster/AJ/OD ZBS/Play-Action based attack for 3 years now and AJ/OD as the only passing weapons for 6 years. The playbook has essentially been the same for 6 years and has failed to incorporate other components or creative talents. We let Keshawn run the occasional reverse instead of Jacoby or Walter and Casey or Graham will run some of the seam routes Dreessen did, but we have to be a painfully easy team for a DC to gameplan against in the playoffs. Honestly, I think the biggest thing the running QBs and pistol has brought is unpredictability and having defenders either flat footed or forced to guess. Brady offers the same unpredictability because new elements are always being incorporated as well as new skill position talent sets that can be incorporated. Manning does a bit of the same with his ability to be an OC on the fly, exploiting weaknesses he sees at the line better than anyone in the history of the game.

I'm hoping Kubiak takes a cue from his mentor Shanahan and boldly incorporates new elements to the old ZBS model, but in a way that uses Schaub's primary competitive edge with deadly accuracy in short and mid range. In a copycat league, every DC is going to be working all offseason on how to defend the pistol just like the did in making the wildcat irrelevent, so there is actually an opportunity right now to bring something new to a system built around a pocket passer. We have to have more base talent to work with and accept that there may be room for a WR who doesn't have "blocking ability" at the top of his resume.
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Texantype


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

kenney wrote:
Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.






If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.






MY, MY. MY-aren't we getting touchy.

I got a big disagreement with you and others who say Schaub is better than 75% of the nfl qb's. This is a major stretch. His abilites have so eroded he is a big reclamation project. Hope he makes it and I have reason to doubt that a large investment in defense is a reason for Schaub's decline.

I hope Schaub proves this wrong, but I would not bet on it.



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texans_uk


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ is that English?
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kenney


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

Texantype wrote:
kenney wrote:
Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.






If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.






MY, MY. MY-aren't we getting touchy.

I got a big disagreement with you and others who say Schaub is better than 75% of the nfl qb's. This is a major stretch. His abilites have so eroded he is a big reclamation project. Hope he makes it and I have reason to doubt that a large investment in defense is a reason for Schaub's decline.

I hope Schaub proves this wrong, but I would not bet on it.



Rolling Eyes


Y'know, being old is neither license to be a jackass nor declaration of your expertise on life.

You said the same thing we've said for four pages, except you somehow managed to be more obnoxious about it by putting a stupid smiley at the end.

I have no idea why you are always so hostile toward everyone here, but most of us are a) not idiots and b) on the same side as you are.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Schaub or elseThe majority Reply with quote

Texantype wrote:
kenney wrote:
Texantype wrote:
All I'm hearing from those who post here is a torrent of apologies about Schaub's qb play and that part of the problems are others on the team, etc.


Thus they reach the conclusion "he is better than 75% of the qb's in the nfl"
If this is so the surrender bells are going to go off all over the Texan network

If you believe he is better than 75% of the other qb's then they must really be terrible. Also this says no matter how bad he is we have to play him no matter what because we have no one else and we have to pay him several mil/yr. for 3 yrs.

If he doesn't turn around it will not be a pretty sight.






If this is what you actually got from reading our posts, it's time to get a new bifocal prescription.

No one here is exciting about Schaub as the QB, but he IS better than a significant chunk of the league's QBs and we are tied to him for at least a couple more years -- our best option is to give him so much help that he can't help but succeed.

I suspect part of what we're seeing is the consequence of investing so heavily in defense in virtually every draft in franchise history.






MY, MY. MY-aren't we getting touchy.

I got a big disagreement with you and others who say Schaub is better than 75% of the nfl qb's. This is a major stretch. His abilites have so eroded he is a big reclamation project. Hope he makes it and I have reason to doubt that a large investment in defense is a reason for Schaub's decline.

I hope Schaub proves this wrong, but I would not bet on it.



Rolling Eyes


Good God, here we go again with another obtuse take that ignores the facts. Explain to me how any of the following add up to it being a "major stretch" that Schaub is better than 75% of the QBs in the league, especially in the AFC:

- He starts - puts him ahead of 64 backups.
- He & Flacco were the only AFC QBs that aren't first ballot HOFers playing last weekend
- QB of a team that won more games than any team in the AFC except Denver and outplayed Manning in their head to head matchup in Denver.
- AFC Pro Bowler - behind Brady and Manning. Technically that means he's better than 81%.
- #5 in Passing Yards in AFC (despite handing the ball to Arian 400 times)
- #4 QB Rating in AFC
- #3 in yards per attempt (behind Brady/Manning)
- #2 in Comp %. Ahead of Brady!

What is a "major stretch" is telling me that there are 10 QBs clearly ahead of Schaub in the league or even 5 in the AFC. Put your money where your mouth is and justify why you would elevate Big Ben, Philip Rivers, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Carson Palmer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Blaine Gabbert, Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill, Jake Locker, Brandon Weedon, Mark Sanchez, or Matt Cassell over Schaub despite there not being any statistical measurement justifying it this year nor winning %.

Once you are done putting together some frail rationalization about what 3 or 4 of these you would elevate over Schaub, please explain to me how you would have gone about acquiring one of these considering every single one of them was a 1st round pick except Dalton who we have throttled two years in a row and Cassell/Fitzpatrick who I'd love to see you justify. Maybe we should have traded our future to get Carson Palmer like the Raiders? If only we could have drafted Locker at #8 or Gabbert at #10 like the two teams who won a combined 8 games in our division while we won our division two years in a row "settling" for JJ Watt at #11 and sticking with Schaub at QB. Maybe we should just start Curtis Painter and win 2 games so we could get to chose between Andrew Luck or RGIII. Oops, this year we may get a chance to take the first QB off the board at #27 this year with this pathetic class.

About the only possible argument this offseason from a quality standpoint would be Flacco (who got killed by Schaub this year, is statistically inferior by every measure and would be awful in our system with his sub 60% comp rate) but I'd love to see how you would pay him the $75-$90 million it will take without gutting the roster and that's before you account for the $25 million in dead space ditching Schaub would create.

Let's see it - what's your plan? Let's evaluate where the "major stretch" is happening.
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