Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Steelers picking 17th - player discussion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47287
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeySteelers wrote:
He is not perfect, look at all the man coverage we played this year. It's because the players strengths are man coverage. Outside linebackers weren't getting pressure so he started using a lot more inside blitz. Clark goes out with an injury, Polamalu plays deep safety. He makes makes adjustments. You can't have Hood attack while Hampton and Keisel are playing 2 gap all the time. That is ridiculous. His entire 3/4 occupy the blockers 2 gap scheme needs some adjustments, imo, he doesn't have the right personnel for that anymore. If he does want to keep his current system, we are going to need to find a replacement for Hood IMO, because he has been terrible in this system. I think our current defensive line would benefit from playing in a similar 3/4 defense to the Texans. It's a passing league now, it would be nice if our defensive line could generate some pressure.


My thinking is, with the way they have been drafting, they have been planning on playing more man for a few years now.

Its not that LeBeau never makes adjustments, but he certainly doesnt mold his defense around the players. He expects the players to mold around his defense, which is a mistake. Tomlin preaches about "elite players defy scheme". and while that may be true to a point, most of our guys arent elite players with a great all around game ala JJ Watt, so if you dont play to their strengths, they are going to struggle. I do agree Hood would have more success in Wade Phillips 34.

LeBeau seemingly expects players like Hood and Heyward to mold into Aaron Smith type players, but that will never happen. There really arent even that many Aaron Smith types any more. You have guys like JJ Watt that are similar, but Watt is a MUCH more athletic version of Aaron Smith that could dominate in any scheme.

I love LeBeau, but this is why I believe his defense is outdated and why the longer LeBeau clings on here, the worse off we will be in the long run. He does deserve to leave on his own terms, but I would be much happier if he called it a day. Some may not like that thought, but I feel like this defense is in transition, and that it would be better off transitioning into a new era with a coach that can usher in that new era.

Instead, we will continue to draft for LeBeau's defense. If we get a good player, Im happy either way, but Im tired of drafting players that are misused in this defense, which is happening way too often. Timmons got move around in 2011, Ziggy is asked to play the Aaron Smith role, our pass rushers are dropped back in situations where they should be attacking, and until last year, we werent playing to the strengths of our secondary either. Throw in the fact that our 2011 1st round pick hardly ever gets to play despite looking really good when he does, and that just sums up my point.

And before anyone takes it the wrong way, Im not saying I know more than LeBeau. Far from it. I just think his best days are well behind him and that this defense is basically in limbo until he retires.
_________________

simonwayne wrote:
We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9265
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:

I love LeBeau, but this is why I believe his defense is outdated and why the longer LeBeau clings on here, the worse off we will be in the long run. He does deserve to leave on his own terms, but I would be much happier if he called it a day. Some may not like that thought, but I feel like this defense is in transition, and that it would be better off transitioning into a new era with a coach that can usher in that new era.


Applause Applause

well stated, agreed on all points 43.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2152
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote
Quote:
HeySteelers wrote:
Lebeau is known to adjust to his players. .


I'd argue the opposite. It takes a LONG time to adjust to his players. He's stll trying to get Ziggy to play like Aaron Smith, still has his OLBs dropping back into coverage 40% of the time.


THIS is the key part. There are reasons why I disagree that pass-rusher is our biggest need; the fact that Timmons can cover a bit but he's adjusted well to joker role, Foote cant cover a snail even if he want to. We need an inside linebacker who really can do it all (Manti Te'o is the best guy available for that bill but not quite the perfect LB we had in mind) now I know we have Sean Spence waiting in the wings but two things; he's unproven and strictly passing downs LB which can expose us against teams with Ray Rice who can pull a play-action play and rush.

A guy like myself wonder whether is better if you can turn back the clock;
Drafting David DeCastro, then Manti Te'o OR Dont'a Hightower, then Chase Warmack.

To improve our pass-rushing dramatically we need to change how our D-linemen play as Ziggy Hood, Brett Keisel, and Cam Heyward all are really good pass-rushers and if not, we need an inside linebacker who allows our pass-rushers to stay true within their playing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 60798
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at players like Timmons and Polumalu Lebeau uses them in so many different ways, that's adjustments people. Before Lebeau didn't have those types of versatile athletes but when he got them he adjusted to what they do best. He's let Polumalu be somewhat of a free lancer for his career, so IMO its not like he doesn't adjust to players.

I still don't see what's wrong with the way ziggy plays the game and how Lebeau uses him, he's a 3-4 de and he plays good, maybe not great at that position. He wasn't that when Lebeau drafted him, so again Lebeau and his staff had to teach him.

If ziggy doesn't satisfy you guys by now, he probably never will becaue at this point he is what he is and maybe that is more on ziggy than on the coaches. Confused Look at cam Heyward, McLendon, Foote, Keisel, Hampton, Woodley, Taylor, And Harrison and what the defensive coaches have done with them. They've done a good job there.
_________________
RIP SSFmike23md
Quote:
óDays until: NFL Draft 30; Training camp 96
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Turtle: I don't think people are complaining about Hood's skillset as much as complaining where the coaches are lining him up on our D. He should take over Keisel's spot and Heyward should take his spot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47287
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I look at players like Timmons and Polumalu Lebeau uses them in so many different ways, that's adjustments people.


Those arent adjustments. Adjustments are tweaks that fix issues. Using players in different ways are just wrinkles in the defense for different situations.

I mean, seriously, for as good as LeBeau's defenses have been over the years, his biggest issue has always been his playcalling when trying to put games away. We still usually won, but his decision to constantly put us into prevent at the end when we had a lead got us in trouble quite a few times and even lost us some games.

Thats one example of a flawed aspect he failed to adjust.


Quote:
Before Lebeau didn't have those types of versatile athletes but when he got them he adjusted to what they do best. He's let Polumalu be somewhat of a free lancer for his career, so IMO its not like he doesn't adjust to players.


Polamalu is a special breed of player. And the key thing to remember there is that Troy was on this team when LeBeau got here, and LeBeau just used Troy in the joker role. Troy still had to adapt to the defense, but again...he is a special case

Quote:
I still don't see what's wrong with the way ziggy plays the game and how Lebeau uses him, he's a 3-4 de and he plays good, maybe not great at that position. He wasn't that when Lebeau drafted him, so again Lebeau and his staff had to teach him.


You dont see whats wrong with how LeBeau uses him?

LeBeau tries to use him like Aaron Smith. You talk about Ziggy's versatility, but when do you EVER see it?

Answer: You dont, and thats because LeBeau, as keth likes to say, is trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

Ziggy isnt terrible. He would be much better if utlized to what he does best, which he is not.

Thats exactly what we are talking about when saying he doesnt adjust.

As I said earlier, he expects Ziggy to mold into his idea of a 3-4 end, which is Aaron Smith. Ziggy will never be that though, and the longer he tries to force it, the longer Ziggy will continue to be misused.

Quote:
If ziggy doesn't satisfy you guys by now, he probably never will becaue at this point he is what he is and maybe that is more on ziggy than on the coaches. Confused


To a limited extent, this is correct.

But ONCE AGAIN, if he starts getting used to what he does best, then we may see another dimension to his game and ability.

At this point, Lebeau has put a muzzle on him. If he took it off, Im not saying Ziggy would be much better, but my guess is he would, even if only moderately.


Quote:
Look at cam Heyward, McLendon, Foote, Keisel, Hampton, Woodley, Taylor, And Harrison and what the defensive coaches have done with them. They've done a good job there.


????

This really doesnt have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Youre talking about the development of players. Guys like Hampton, Kiesel, Foote, Taylor, Woodley and Harrison all adjusted to what LeBeau does and fit the roles he created. We arent talking about the players that fit his defense well, we are talking about the ones that dont, and how LeBeau refuses to adjust to make those players more effective.

Disclaimer: This isnt meant to bash LeBeau at all, but the apologists acting like he can do no wrong is getting old.
_________________

simonwayne wrote:
We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 60798
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
@Turtle: I don't think people are complaining about Hood's skillset as much as complaining where the coaches are lining him up on our D. He should take over Keisel's spot and Heyward should take his spot.
I think the coaches and especially Keisel know their players and how to use them better than any of us. I trust Lebeau, who has 50 years experience in the nfl
_________________
RIP SSFmike23md
Quote:
óDays until: NFL Draft 30; Training camp 96
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47287
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
at23steelers wrote:
@Turtle: I don't think people are complaining about Hood's skillset as much as complaining where the coaches are lining him up on our D. He should take over Keisel's spot and Heyward should take his spot.
I think the coaches and especially Keisel know their players and how to use them better than any of us. I trust Lebeau, who has 50 years experience in the nfl


I hate using this emoticon, but I cant think of anything else to say that sums it up better, so...

Rolling Eyes
_________________

simonwayne wrote:
We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 60798
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
at23steelers wrote:
@Turtle: I don't think people are complaining about Hood's skillset as much as complaining where the coaches are lining him up on our D. He should take over Keisel's spot and Heyward should take his spot.
I think the coaches and especially Keisel know their players and how to use them better than any of us. I trust Lebeau, who has 50 years experience in the nfl


I hate using this emoticon, but I cant think of anything else to say that sums it up better, so...

Rolling Eyes
same here but Rolling Eyes Laughing Wink
_________________
RIP SSFmike23md
Quote:
óDays until: NFL Draft 30; Training camp 96
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
rrize24


Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Steeler Nation
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After watching the 49er-Green Bay & Alabama-Notre Dame games and watching how a dominant offensive line can take over a game, I'm slowly warming up to the idea of drafting Chance Warmack. Hiring an excellent line coach, with the young talent already on the team, could really bring the offensive line to the next level.
_________________

^ ^ ^
Props to DAWG24 on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 7858
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrize24 wrote:
After watching the 49er-Green Bay & Alabama-Notre Dame games and watching how a dominant offensive line can take over a game, I'm slowly warming up to the idea of drafting Chance Warmack. Hiring an excellent line coach, with the young talent already on the team, could really bring the offensive line to the next level.


While i like Warmack I do not think it is the direction that Tomlin is taking the Oline. I think they are moving away from fat, belly hanging linemen to more athletic ( perhaps belly hanging) linemen.

The Steelers are limited on offense partly because most of their linemen can not move out in screens or pull or get to the second level and be expected to hit someone. Watch Denver or NE line in action.

If they go OG it is more likely to be Jonathan cooper than Warmack.
_________________

"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9265
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
rrize24 wrote:
After watching the 49er-Green Bay & Alabama-Notre Dame games and watching how a dominant offensive line can take over a game, I'm slowly warming up to the idea of drafting Chance Warmack. Hiring an excellent line coach, with the young talent already on the team, could really bring the offensive line to the next level.


While i like Warmack I do not think it is the direction that Tomlin is taking the Oline. I think they are moving away from fat, belly hanging linemen to more athletic ( perhaps belly hanging) linemen.

The Steelers are limited on offense partly because most of their linemen can not move out in screens or pull or get to the second level and be expected to hit someone. Watch Denver or NE line in action.

If they go OG it is more likely to be Jonathan cooper than Warmack.


an OL of Mike Adams - Beachum - Pouncey - DeCastro - <somebody> would certainly make for wicked ZBS potential. zone stretch to the weakside, DeCastro pulling behind Mike Adams to the weakside...shades of Will Shields pulling behind Willie Roaf...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HeySteelers


Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 6132
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Favorite OLB who will be there around where we draft?

Ezekiel Ansah?
Dion Jordan?
Sam Montgomery?
Barkevious Mingo?

I really like Jordan, his speed and first step from the position is elite. He is good in coverage. He will need to add weight to that frame.

Really like Ziggy also. He is a freak.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2152
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many have overrated Chase Warmack. Yes, he's an elite running blocker but his pass blocking is something left to be desired.

To compare Warmack to DeCastro is like comparing Steve Hutchinson to Alan Faneca. I'd want me Faneca all day long and the talents isn't problem with our O-linemen anyway, it's the depth and system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MightyJoeYoung


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 2793
Location: Wakefield, England
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
Many have overrated Chase Warmack. Yes, he's an elite running blocker but his pass blocking is something left to be desired.

To compare Warmack to DeCastro is like comparing Steve Hutchinson to Alan Faneca. I'd want me Faneca all day long and the talents isn't problem with our O-linemen anyway, it's the depth and system.

So Warmack would only be the second best guard in the league?

DO NOT DRAFT!!!
_________________


Thanks to Joe_is_the_best for the sig

"The King Stay the King"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Page 10 of 12

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group