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Why I love and at the same time DESPISE - LeBeau
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9739
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Lake would of done nothing differently then Horton with the talent he was given.


I don't see how you can say that. How can you possibly know this?

SteelProven wrote:
I can't say if Horton would of done better with this current talent pool, but it was leaning more that way.


ok, before I go further, please explain.

SteelProven wrote:
Horton DBs in AZ are far outperforming the DBs with the Steelers in the turnover departement.


really?

Gee, I wonder why? Is it perhaps because

1. They have the 5th overall draft pick in Patrick Peterson?
2. 3 of their 4 starters missed a grand total of 3 games?
3. Troy was injured for 85% of the season?

I wonder how they would've done with Peterson gone for 85% of the games?

SteelProven wrote:
C. Lake still hasn't taught the Steelers DBs how to catch, still the same issue it was before. Troy and Clark gets 7-9 Ints, I. Taylor gets 1-2 whoever plays #2 and 3 get 1-2.


so Lake is supposed to teach guys to catch? Horton had several of those guys for years and couldn't teach them to catch

Dude, seriously. Are you trolling me or something?
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
Lake would of done nothing differently then Horton with the talent he was given.


I don't see how you can say that. How can you possibly know this?

SteelProven wrote:
I can't say if Horton would of done better with this current talent pool, but it was leaning more that way.


ok, before I go further, please explain.

SteelProven wrote:
Horton DBs in AZ are far outperforming the DBs with the Steelers in the turnover departement.


really?

Gee, I wonder why? Is it perhaps because

1. They have the 5th overall draft pick in Patrick Peterson?
2. 3 of their 4 starters missed a grand total of 3 games?
3. Troy was injured for 85% of the season?

I wonder how they would've done with Peterson gone for 85% of the games?

SteelProven wrote:
C. Lake still hasn't taught the Steelers DBs how to catch, still the same issue it was before. Troy and Clark gets 7-9 Ints, I. Taylor gets 1-2 whoever plays #2 and 3 get 1-2.


so Lake is supposed to teach guys to catch? Horton had several of those guys for years and couldn't teach them to catch

Dude, seriously. Are you trolling me or something?


No I just don't clamor over a coach that was a relative unknown ( as a coach) then heap credit upon him when the team does well. The Steelers defense with Horton last year was #1 is the credit to Horton or Lake? Up until I. Taylor got injured the Steelers secondary was relatively healthy and didn't produce much as far as turnovers.

That statement about C. Lake teaching them how to catch was a joke. M. Tomlin and D. LeBeau are the ones who should receive most of if not all the credit.

Lake could of done nothing different with Gay or Mac, both were terrible man coverage CBs. People are making it out like C. Lake by himself made the Steelers CBs what they are. The only one I can give him real credit for is Cortez Allen as he was the one player taken during his time that has amounted to anything.
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grubs10


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Up until I. Taylor got injured the Steelers secondary was relatively healthy and didn't produce much as far as turnovers.
You know except for the player who missed the majority of that time and happens to be our best playmaker back there.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grubs10 wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
Up until I. Taylor got injured the Steelers secondary was relatively healthy and didn't produce much as far as turnovers.
You know except for the player who missed the majority of that time and happens to be our best playmaker back there.


Yes Troy was out, but it wasn't like the Steelers secondary didn't play well without him. I could understand if they weren't playing well at all, but that's not the case.

All I'm saying is Horton is getting way to much blame for things he couldn't control. The Steelers drafted zone CBs during the pass evolution, which didn't bode well.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
I know...Heyward looked quite good when given a chance.

I REALLY dont understand the McClendon deal. All preseason I heard how great he was, and then as soon as Snack was ready, he gets buried and we hardly see him.

I understand LeBeau's loyalty, but think about what is best for the team. Im not saying those two shouldve been starting, but there were many times where I thought Hampton was struggling that we didnt even attemtpt to use McClendon.

I could never "despise" LeBeau. He has done too much for us. I do, however, still hope he would bow out and let us move on.
agreed. Here is what is do for next year. I'd re-sign Snack to an affordable contract. I'd start Snack but Id play McLendon a lot more, like twice as many snaps as he played this year.

I'd keep Keisel for at the least one more year, but again I'd keep giving Heyward more snaps. I'd give him some of Ziggy's snaps also. I'd double Heywards snaps.

It's pretty clear Heyward and McClendon are a solid part of this DLs future and they need more playing time.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
steelcurtain29 wrote:
Hood was invisible until around week 11. How he still got three times the snaps defensively than Heyward is beyond me.

Hood just doesn't have what it takes to come off the edge. Perhaps he should get more looks at NT?


I don't understand do fans believe that Hood should be getting more sacks? Z. Hood is a Brett Keisel clone. If you like Brett Keisel then you like Z. Hood. I just think Z. Hood is playing on the wrong side of the defense.

I agree that C. heyward should be getting more snaps because 207 isn't enough. But to Z. Hoods defense he plays NT in the sub package defense. Which is a position that I believe should belong to S. McLendon.
i agree with that. Makes total sense to me.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SP, what about Clark playing the best of his career and we actually had a solid secondary without Polamalu, something that was almost never the case with Horton.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
SP, what about Clark playing the best of his career and we actually had a solid secondary without Polamalu, something that was almost never the case with Horton.


I'm not taking anything away from C. Lake, because our SS/FS should benefit the most from him. I just think the CB play was beginning to evolve and would of turned out this way regardless.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our CBs had been our achilles' heel during the entirety of Horton's tenure with us. Now they're becoming a strength. Horton had Keenan Lewis for 3 full seasons and he did jackall and was on the verge of being a complete bust. Now he's about to get himself a fat contract because Carnell Lake taught him how to play CB.

If you don't see that Lake has made a difference, then ok. I guess we'll just agree to strongly disagree.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
Our CBs had been our achilles' heel during the entirety of Horton's tenure with us. Now they're becoming a strength. Horton had Keenan Lewis for 3 full seasons and he did jackall and was on the verge of being a complete bust. Now he's about to get himself a fat contract because Carnell Lake taught him how to play CB.

If you don't see that Lake has made a difference, then ok. I guess we'll just agree to strongly disagree.


Lewis did his own self in, not Horton! K. Lewis could of started as the #2/3 in 2010 and 2011 but put himself in the dog house. K. Lewis was talked about a lot for his great play during TC and his ability to cover the NFL best deep threat. So it wasn't Horton fault that K. Lewis had mental issues.

C. Lake has give the Steelers a insider perspective into the defense because of familiarity in the same defense. Its makes the understanding and possibly the "learning curve" that much easier which should get young players up to speed quicker. C. Lake has help the Steelers but I believe the Steelers have done a better job of drafting better CBs.

I still believe there is a good chance for C. Brown, but the jury is still out on him. We'll see if Lake is as good as everybody is making him out to be because C. Brown needs to step up.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems like Curtis Brown is forever getting nicked up. Dude can't stay healthy.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Lewis did his own self in, not Horton! K. Lewis could of started as the #2/3 in 2010 and 2011 but put himself in the dog house. K. Lewis was talked about a lot for his great play during TC and his ability to cover the NFL best deep threat. So it wasn't Horton fault that K. Lewis had mental issues.


Yes, it was Horton's fault.

Lewis was horribly undisciplined. That was an ongoing theme with our DBs under Horton.

Its not shocking that that has changed dramatically since Lake took over.

Quote:
C. Lake has give the Steelers a insider perspective into the defense because of familiarity in the same defense. Its makes the understanding and possibly the "learning curve" that much easier which should get young players up to speed quicker. C. Lake has help the Steelers but I believe the Steelers have done a better job of drafting better CBs
.

Or maybe we are just doing a better job of developing them?

Cant really either argue either side since there is no real way of knowing that.

Quote:
I still believe there is a good chance for C. Brown, but the jury is still out on him. We'll see if Lake is as good as everybody is making him out to be because C. Brown needs to step up.


Wait...

You bascially gave Horton a pass for failing consistently to develop our young DBs, yet now you are basically saying if Lake is truly good he will develop Brown? How about looking at the improvements that have already taken place?

Its one thing not to jump on a bandwagon too soon. I completely understand that....but you are flat out dismissing what Lake has done thus far in terms of how much better he has been than Horton.

And one last thing I need to address about something you said earlier....

Quote:
The Steelers defense with Horton last year was #1 is the credit to Horton or Lake?


For one...I dont really get what youre trying to say. Horton wasnt with us last year.

Secondly....in the 2 years since Lake has been here, we have had the number 1 pass defense in the league both years....and thats without the luxury of a pass rush that Horton had most of his time here.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
Our CBs had been our achilles' heel during the entirety of Horton's tenure with us. Now they're becoming a strength. Horton had Keenan Lewis for 3 full seasons and he did jackall and was on the verge of being a complete bust. Now he's about to get himself a fat contract because Carnell Lake taught him how to play CB.

If you don't see that Lake has made a difference, then ok. I guess we'll just agree to strongly disagree.


Again, I would say that Lewis benefited from a scheme change that played to his strengths. C. Allen would have sucked this year had they asked him to play zone like they did with Lewis. Some of it is Lake but most of it is a scheme change that LeBeau had planed for several years.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
Our CBs had been our achilles' heel during the entirety of Horton's tenure with us. Now they're becoming a strength. Horton had Keenan Lewis for 3 full seasons and he did jackall and was on the verge of being a complete bust. Now he's about to get himself a fat contract because Carnell Lake taught him how to play CB.

If you don't see that Lake has made a difference, then ok. I guess we'll just agree to strongly disagree.


Again, I would say that Lewis benefited from a scheme change that played to his strengths. C. Allen would have sucked this year had they asked him to play zone like they did with Lewis. Some of it is Lake but most of it is a scheme change that LeBeau had planed for several years.


I agree that both Allen and Lewis benefit from playing man.

at the same time, no chance does LeBeau "trust" that without their development.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
SteelProven wrote:
Lewis did his own self in, not Horton! K. Lewis could of started as the #2/3 in 2010 and 2011 but put himself in the dog house. K. Lewis was talked about a lot for his great play during TC and his ability to cover the NFL best deep threat. So it wasn't Horton fault that K. Lewis had mental issues.


Yes, it was Horton's fault.

Lewis was horribly undisciplined. That was an ongoing theme with our DBs under Horton.

Its not shocking that that has changed dramatically since Lake took over.

Quote:
C. Lake has give the Steelers a insider perspective into the defense because of familiarity in the same defense. Its makes the understanding and possibly the "learning curve" that much easier which should get young players up to speed quicker. C. Lake has help the Steelers but I believe the Steelers have done a better job of drafting better CBs
.

Or maybe we are just doing a better job of developing them?

Cant really either argue either side since there is no real way of knowing that.

Quote:
I still believe there is a good chance for C. Brown, but the jury is still out on him. We'll see if Lake is as good as everybody is making him out to be because C. Brown needs to step up.


Wait...

You bascially gave Horton a pass for failing consistently to develop our young DBs, yet now you are basically saying if Lake is truly good he will develop Brown? How about looking at the improvements that have already taken place?

Its one thing not to jump on a bandwagon too soon. I completely understand that....but you are flat out dismissing what Lake has done thus far in terms of how much better he has been than Horton.

And one last thing I need to address about something you said earlier....

Quote:
The Steelers defense with Horton last year was #1 is the credit to Horton or Lake?


For one...I dont really get what youre trying to say. Horton wasnt with us last year.

Secondly....in the 2 years since Lake has been here, we have had the number 1 pass defense in the league both years....and thats without the luxury of a pass rush that Horton had most of his time here.


You give a coach crap talent and the coach looks bad. Horton was given 2 quality CBs in his entire time in Pittsburgh, the Steelers never drafted a 1st round CB in his entire time. Can't give a coach a empty fridge and expect him to make Christmas dinner.
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