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UKClevelander
Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| duke2056 wrote: | | UKClevelander wrote: | | duke2056 wrote: |
However, the entire argument changes when we get a new coach, and also if we get a new GM.. |
Judging by the rumours it looks like we clean house from Monday. With a new GM/coach duo coming in my first thought would be they would want "their" man (be it a trade or draft).
I have a question which I am not sure if it can be answered easily or not:
What is the % of a new GM/coach duo sticking with the incumbent QB? From my patchy memory I think the Falcons drafted Ryan after a new HC/GM but I don't know about any other examples to help. |
I think the % is pretty irrelevant, cause generally when a team's coach and GM are fired it is because they were losing. Chances are if you have a good QB you won't be a losing team on a consistent basis, so you aren't going to clean house firing everyone.
Off hand I would say the % is very low, but I would be willing to bet the vast majority of those teams had crappy QBs.
For example, if the Chargers clean house are they going to get rid of Phillip Rivers?? No
If the Cardinals clean house, would they get rid of Skelton, Lindley, and Kolb and bring in someone new?? Yeah, pretty likely. |
I completely agree with you duke which is why I fear we are going to roll the dice on yet another QB. We have been losing for years (although this year has seen big signs of improvement in my opinion) so another QB change through the draft is (for me) a step back in our progress.
Its an interesting comment you made about Rivers as they are likely to be changing their GM/HC as well. I would not be suprised if they look to get a draft pick for him this off season. A new coach may want a different skill set and a GM may want to sell a 31 year old who could still fetch a 2nd round pick. |
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 9035
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| UKClevelander wrote: | | duke2056 wrote: | | UKClevelander wrote: | | duke2056 wrote: |
However, the entire argument changes when we get a new coach, and also if we get a new GM.. |
Judging by the rumours it looks like we clean house from Monday. With a new GM/coach duo coming in my first thought would be they would want "their" man (be it a trade or draft).
I have a question which I am not sure if it can be answered easily or not:
What is the % of a new GM/coach duo sticking with the incumbent QB? From my patchy memory I think the Falcons drafted Ryan after a new HC/GM but I don't know about any other examples to help. |
I think the % is pretty irrelevant, cause generally when a team's coach and GM are fired it is because they were losing. Chances are if you have a good QB you won't be a losing team on a consistent basis, so you aren't going to clean house firing everyone.
Off hand I would say the % is very low, but I would be willing to bet the vast majority of those teams had crappy QBs.
For example, if the Chargers clean house are they going to get rid of Phillip Rivers?? No
If the Cardinals clean house, would they get rid of Skelton, Lindley, and Kolb and bring in someone new?? Yeah, pretty likely. |
I completely agree with you duke which is why I fear we are going to roll the dice on yet another QB. We have been losing for years (although this year has seen big signs of improvement in my opinion) so another QB change through the draft is (for me) a step back in our progress.
Its an interesting comment you made about Rivers as they are likely to be changing their GM/HC as well. I would not be suprised if they look to get a draft pick for him this off season. A new coach may want a different skill set and a GM may want to sell a 31 year old who could still fetch a 2nd round pick. |
I would give up a 2nd for Rivers in a heartbeat. I mean, he is two years older than Weeden, and 100x better, and obviously more proven with a nice track record of some NFL success. And we used a 1st on Weeden.
Geesh, if had we not used that pick on Weeden then traded for Rivers this offseason at that low of a price, I think we make the playoffs in 2013 easily.
But no, I don't think there is a chance in hell the Chargers let go of Rivers, UNLESS it is due to some sort of irreconcileable differences (spelling).
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3/18/17 predictions:
Jimmy G stays with New England this year.
We draft Garrett at #1 (out on a limb there).
We trade back from 12 for another 2018 1st.
We do NOT draft a QB in the first 2 rounds. |
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 9035
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| LETSGOBROWNIES wrote: | I've said this previously and I'll continue to say it until proven wrong.
Until this joke of a franchise is willing to give a head coach, OC and a reasonably talented QB 3-4 years together in the same system, we'll continue to have the same problems.
Giving a new OC/HC 1-2 years and a QB a one year audition, as a rookie/2nd year player, to be a 'stud' is never going to work.
Hopefully Banner understands that.
As to the prospects this year, I'll take Weeden over all of them. |
I agree that generally speaking a coach needs several years, and a QB at least a couple. Same with coordinators.
Problem is, you could give Shurmur 50 years and he will still be a deer in headlights on game day.
Shurmur has about a 0.000001% chance of staying IMO, and I will crack a beer and celebrate when he is gone. I can only watch so much idiocy from one coach.
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3/18/17 predictions:
Jimmy G stays with New England this year.
We draft Garrett at #1 (out on a limb there).
We trade back from 12 for another 2018 1st.
We do NOT draft a QB in the first 2 rounds. |
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briggsie2006
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 3474
Location: St. Marys, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not saying that Weeden is or isn't the answer, but I certainly don't think he is a WCO QB. Why are we always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Isn't it about time that we finally use the players we have to their strengths rather than trying to make them adapt to our systems? Again, just my observations and two cents about what I think since 99.
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| Glenn (fellow associate) wrote: | | Derek Anderson in like the weather man. He gets the calls right maybe 15%-20% of the time, and yet he never loses his job or somehow figures a way to get it back. |
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| briggsie2006 wrote: | | I'm not saying that Weeden is or isn't the answer, but I certainly don't think he is a WCO QB. Why are we always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Isn't it about time that we finally use the players we have to their strengths rather than trying to make them adapt to our systems? Again, just my observations and two cents about what I think since 99. |
Why don't you think he is a WCO QB? He has a strong arm, he's accurate, has a quick release, can throw on the run...why exactly?
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 9035
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | briggsie2006 wrote: | | I'm not saying that Weeden is or isn't the answer, but I certainly don't think he is a WCO QB. Why are we always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Isn't it about time that we finally use the players we have to their strengths rather than trying to make them adapt to our systems? Again, just my observations and two cents about what I think since 99. |
Why don't you think he is a WCO QB? He has a strong arm, he's accurate, has a quick release, can throw on the run...why exactly? |
Probably cause he runs like Bernie Kosar.
Throw on the run?? More like throw on the "walk".
I never thought he was a WCO type of QB either. Maybe I just don't understand what the WCO is trying to accomplish exactly, but I always thought to maximize the effectiveness of the style the WCO needed a QB who is mobile. Not necessarily a running QB, but quick and mobile like an Aaron Rodgers type.
I always think of Steve Young when I think of a perfect fit for a WCO.
_________________
3/18/17 predictions:
Jimmy G stays with New England this year.
We draft Garrett at #1 (out on a limb there).
We trade back from 12 for another 2018 1st.
We do NOT draft a QB in the first 2 rounds. |
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| duke2056 wrote: | | Entropy wrote: | | briggsie2006 wrote: | | I'm not saying that Weeden is or isn't the answer, but I certainly don't think he is a WCO QB. Why are we always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Isn't it about time that we finally use the players we have to their strengths rather than trying to make them adapt to our systems? Again, just my observations and two cents about what I think since 99. |
Why don't you think he is a WCO QB? He has a strong arm, he's accurate, has a quick release, can throw on the run...why exactly? |
Probably cause he runs like Bernie Kosar.
Throw on the run?? More like throw on the "walk".
I never thought he was a WCO type of QB either. Maybe I just don't understand what the WCO is trying to accomplish exactly, but I always thought to maximize the effectiveness of the style the WCO needed a QB who is mobile. Not necessarily a running QB, but quick and mobile like an Aaron Rodgers type.
I always think of Steve Young when I think of a perfect fit for a WCO. |
Kosar? That's a pretty big stretch there. He's certainly no Young, but he's much closer to that than Kosar.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you need to reconsider using some stats to support your opinions more often.
Your eyes can lie to you, your memory can fail, your emotions can overrule all of that. That's why stats can help.
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 9035
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | duke2056 wrote: | | Entropy wrote: | | briggsie2006 wrote: | | I'm not saying that Weeden is or isn't the answer, but I certainly don't think he is a WCO QB. Why are we always trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? Isn't it about time that we finally use the players we have to their strengths rather than trying to make them adapt to our systems? Again, just my observations and two cents about what I think since 99. |
Why don't you think he is a WCO QB? He has a strong arm, he's accurate, has a quick release, can throw on the run...why exactly? |
Probably cause he runs like Bernie Kosar.
Throw on the run?? More like throw on the "walk".
I never thought he was a WCO type of QB either. Maybe I just don't understand what the WCO is trying to accomplish exactly, but I always thought to maximize the effectiveness of the style the WCO needed a QB who is mobile. Not necessarily a running QB, but quick and mobile like an Aaron Rodgers type.
I always think of Steve Young when I think of a perfect fit for a WCO. |
Kosar? That's a pretty big stretch there. He's certainly no Young, but he's much closer to that than Kosar.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you need to reconsider using some stats to support your opinions more often.
Your eyes can lie to you, your memory can fail, your emotions can overrule all of that. That's why stats can help. |
Stats can lie, mislead, and are misused more than anything in the land of making arguments.
For example, a terrible read and poorly thrown ball can still turn into an 80 yard TD pass and look awesome on the stat sheet.
While on the next play, a perfect read and perfect throw can be a dropped ball that turns into the game losing interception, which looks horrible on a stat sheet.
And I would certainly say Weeden's mobility is closer to Kosar than Young, easily.
I am not talking about running the 40 yard dash. I mean mobility and how good they are at moving in the pocket. I actually think Kosar was better at moving in the pocket than Weeden. Experience will certainly help that.
I am not bashing Weeden at all. I like Weeden and think he could be pretty darn good. I just didnt view him as a WCO QB, so if/when we change our offensive schemes, I certainly won't mind.
_________________
3/18/17 predictions:
Jimmy G stays with New England this year.
We draft Garrett at #1 (out on a limb there).
We trade back from 12 for another 2018 1st.
We do NOT draft a QB in the first 2 rounds. |
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 10805
Location: C-bus
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Stats lie...
The eye can fool you...
Use all info to form your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that weeden is NOT a good fit for a wco QB, and I am very happy that it looks like we will move away from that.
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Estonianzulu
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 27078
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: |
Use all info to form your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that weeden is NOT a good fit for a wco QB, and I am very happy that it looks like we will move away from that. |
Why?
Because he can not accurately complete passes or throw open receivers.
Unfortunately that means he will be a bad QB in any system. If gunslinger types like a Brett Favre can succeed in the WCO, the only reason Weeden can't is because he's not good.
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | Stats lie...
The eye can fool you...
Use all info to form your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that weeden is NOT a good fit for a wco QB, and I am very happy that it looks like we will move away from that. |
My opinion is that you used nothing to support your opinion that Weeden is not a good fit for the WCO...no, wait, that wasn't an opinion.
And stats don't lie. They can be misused and interpreted poorly.
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 10805
Location: C-bus
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | Stats lie...
The eye can fool you...
Use all info to form your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that weeden is NOT a good fit for a wco QB, and I am very happy that it looks like we will move away from that. |
My opinion is that you used nothing to support your opinion that Weeden is not a good fit for the WCO...no, wait, that wasn't an opinion.
And stats don't lie. They can be misused and interpreted poorly. |
We all know your zeal for weeden, I'm not going to bother with adding more to my comment because nothing I say will make any difference to you.
I'll let you try to argue with EZ's very true and excellent comment instead. Lol
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Entropy wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | Stats lie...
The eye can fool you...
Use all info to form your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that weeden is NOT a good fit for a wco QB, and I am very happy that it looks like we will move away from that. |
My opinion is that you used nothing to support your opinion that Weeden is not a good fit for the WCO...no, wait, that wasn't an opinion.
And stats don't lie. They can be misused and interpreted poorly. |
We all know your zeal for weeden, I'm not going to bother with adding more to my comment because nothing I say will make any difference to you.
I'll let you try to argue with EZ's very true and excellent comment instead. Lol |
Zeal? horse-apples!
Where does that even come from? I refuse to exaggerate or hate on the guy and now I'm zealous?... laughable
I'll let you ignore what I said and just move along.
Oh, and I think you misunderstood what EZ was saying, either that or I did. 
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