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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo was bad and there is no arguing that at all.

But he and Lovie are tied together and we really don't know who wanted who and the inner workings of player personnel.

Lovie and Angelo were together 8 years and they are tied at the hip because of it.

No one can say that this is not Lovie's team, which means he is responsible for the success and the ample failings.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
PacAttack04 wrote:
I mean, I always see Bears fans worried about the core of their defense. But as they replace their stars, they are going to have young players reaching their prime.

Guys like Henry Melton and Major Wright for sure I feel established they can always be playmakers on defense no matter the talent around them. At DE, you've invested in young talent such at Wootton as at LE, and McClein possibly at RE, and when guys like Idonije and Peppers leave, they could establish themselves as legitimate starting options. Paea is already at NT and he's shown some success and will likely be improving. Yes, there's a rebuild coming, but the team has slowly been adding high pickings, adding good young players, to the point where maybe when you replace Urlacher this year, you pick up a 3rd Round LB to eventually replace Briggs.

You say you need to rebuild, but Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, and Tillman are still playing at a high level, so why not slowly replace them? I feel that's what you have been doing on the D-line, then you move onto the LBs or secondary. Rebuilds don't necessarily have to take a long time


Exactly…but some don’t have the patience to see that.
Some won't tolerate the yearly December collapse. It is easy to see why Packer fans defend Smith but if McCarthy's record was like Smith - winning only every other year - he would have been sent packing from Cheeseville long ago.


Nothing to do with injury at all the last two years huh.


All teams deal with injuries it cannot be execuse.

Every year guys are going to get hurt and you have to rise above it.

Last year with Jay it was different, QB is the exception when it comes to injuries.


Exactly…so it’s no excuse.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Angelo was the sacrificial victim thrown to the Lynch Mob rather than bite the bullet and get rid of both. How does Smith get the credit for the Bears success while Angelo gets the blame?


It was Angelo’s job to fill the roster with talent and depth…he failed to do that and it cost him his job…Smith worked with the little talent he was given and made us somewhat successful hence the reason he is praise and Angelo is sitting at home…Phil Emery did in one offseason what Angelo couldn’t do in years…he got us former starters to back up at QB, RB, OG, LB & CB…he got us a #1 WR that has went on to set all-time records…he drafted us a #2 WR who could actually have a big part to play…Angelo could never do that.
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Saying a guy is an "Angelo pick" or a "Lovie guy" is all hearsay, and you guys just makeup whatever you feel like to back your arguments.

Unless you were in the room or have solid evidence on this stuff, it's all just speculation.
There wasn't a player put on the Bears without Smith's approval. That is the bottom line. Angelo never went out and found players without that, never said "here he is, coach him up."

How do you know that for certain?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Angelo was the sacrificial victim thrown to the Lynch Mob rather than bite the bullet and get rid of both. How does Smith get the credit for the Bears success while Angelo gets the blame?


It was Angelo’s job to fill the roster with talent and depth…he failed to do that and it cost him his job…Smith worked with the little talent he was given and made us somewhat successful hence the reason he is praise and Angelo is sitting at home…Phil Emery did in one offseason what Angelo couldn’t do in years…he got us former starters to back up at QB, RB, OG, LB & CB…he got us a #1 WR that has went on to set all-time records…he drafted us a #2 WR who could actually have a big part to play…Angelo could never do that.
Angelo's players took us to the Super Bowl and we were within a couple of plays of winning it. It is simply false that he did not get players. His bad luck with drafting O linemen is the reason he is counting his money. But that could happen to any GM including Emery.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Saying a guy is an "Angelo pick" or a "Lovie guy" is all hearsay, and you guys just makeup whatever you feel like to back your arguments.

Unless you were in the room or have solid evidence on this stuff, it's all just speculation.
There wasn't a player put on the Bears without Smith's approval. That is the bottom line. Angelo never went out and found players without that, never said "here he is, coach him up."

How do you know that for certain?
Because that is the way things are done in the pros. These are not functions totally separated from each other in ANY way. As MM90 tells us "it is a team".

Besides had the contrary been the case you would have heard about it - one way or the other.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Angelo was the sacrificial victim thrown to the Lynch Mob rather than bite the bullet and get rid of both. How does Smith get the credit for the Bears success while Angelo gets the blame?


It was Angelo’s job to fill the roster with talent and depth…he failed to do that and it cost him his job…Smith worked with the little talent he was given and made us somewhat successful hence the reason he is praise and Angelo is sitting at home…Phil Emery did in one offseason what Angelo couldn’t do in years…he got us former starters to back up at QB, RB, OG, LB & CB…he got us a #1 WR that has went on to set all-time records…he drafted us a #2 WR who could actually have a big part to play…Angelo could never do that.
Angelo's players took us to the Super Bowl and we were within a couple of plays of winning it. It is simply false that he did not get players. His bad luck with drafting O linemen is the reason he is counting his money. But that could happen to any GM including Emery.


Laughing

Oh man I think you are remembering things way better than they were...Oline was his only "bad luck" lol...go take a look at the 2007 NFL draft and try and remember how things actually were.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Angelo was the sacrificial victim thrown to the Lynch Mob rather than bite the bullet and get rid of both. How does Smith get the credit for the Bears success while Angelo gets the blame?


It was Angelo’s job to fill the roster with talent and depth…he failed to do that and it cost him his job…Smith worked with the little talent he was given and made us somewhat successful hence the reason he is praise and Angelo is sitting at home…Phil Emery did in one offseason what Angelo couldn’t do in years…he got us former starters to back up at QB, RB, OG, LB & CB…he got us a #1 WR that has went on to set all-time records…he drafted us a #2 WR who could actually have a big part to play…Angelo could never do that.
Angelo's players took us to the Super Bowl and we were within a couple of plays of winning it. It is simply false that he did not get players. His bad luck with drafting O linemen is the reason he is counting his money. But that could happen to any GM including Emery.


Laughing

Oh man I think you are remembering things way better than they were...Oline was his only "bad luck" lol...go take a look at the 2007 NFL draft and try and remember how things actually were.
I never said that was his only bad luck but it was horrible. The way things actually were was that there were sufficient good players to be within a couple of plays from winning the Super Bowl and they were collected by Angelo for the most part. And most of his busts were players about which there was little or no controversy. Benson for example. But he had to go just for that luck alone.

Trading for a guy who died was pretty damn bad luck, too. About the worst, I would think.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7959
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
It is undeniable that Angelo was vilified here way out of proportion to his faults. Unless I press the point no one acknowledged that Smith helped make those decisions and got little blame for them.
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BEARS24


Joined: 25 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion on the whole situation of Lovie...

Lovie Smith has been a faithful and excellent coach to one of the most illustrious and difficult teams to coach in all of team based sport, but in a town that expects so much he has not delivered the number one prize and it is wearing thin on many level headed fans here on FF

I don't think of myself as irrational and hot headed, and I hope that my posts on this site have reflected this, so my calls for a change at HC have been made with thought on how it could affect the team both positively and adversely as well

MM90 stated that Lovie is great 1 on 1 with the players, but when you get too comfortable in a job weather it be as a bag boy or an exec, you get complacent, so I think a new culture needs to be brought in especially with arguably the dawning of a new era in Chicago

Let me preface this next passage by saying this. My whole love of football stems from Brian Urlacher. He is the reason I started watching the game, why I wanted to play Linebacker when I first began to play football and why the Bears are my favorite sports team on the planet win or lose. But I think he will be gone this season, and I think it will be the right time for the team to move on and usher in a new era where we catch up with the rest of the NFL.

Emery was the beginning of this new era, and he showed he knows what it takes to be a championship calibre team in this day and age, with his immediate display of daylight robbery, or as it is more commonly referred to, the Brandon Marshall trade.

However, there is only so much a GM can do and it is down to the coach to handle his team throughout the season. Fact is we have not performed particularly well against quality opponents, and the playoffs is the cream of the crop, and a place we do not deserve to be.

Individual players have been outstanding this year ie: Brandon Marshall and units have been on fire as well, but there has been a slow down and there has to be a reason why. Not to say that the team is comfortable with losing, but it seems that there will be no desire to become great at this time, and I think the first step to a new mentality in the team is to bring in a new coach and re-form the o-line, a job that has been put off for years, and this is a fact that still to this day baffles me.

Who this man will be, I do not know, but anyone who comes to Chicago will have to know the size of the task they have at hand, even with a winning team, fans and media will treat you like you are yet to win a game in your career, I trust Emery to make the right decision in this regard when discussing it the relevant higher ups in the franchise.

Some things should be left somewhat alone, that being the defense and the fact that we run a 4 -3, but things as simple as pressing at the line could have prevented so many obvious scores, and its a change that Lovie is not willing to make. I am sure people will argue the advantages of not doing it as well and more knowledgeable posters will say that we do not have the personnel to do this as well but something as got to give, and the prevent D has got to be thrown out of the playbook, I can't explain how badly I want to headbutt whoever thought of the concept of it.

Finally, the biggest reason for our lack of sustainable success is that prick Angelo. I forget who posted it, but they were right in saying that it will take at least a few years to wash the stink of his term as GM off our team, but regardless he has dug us into too many holes and deserves to never manage a team again, even a team of huskies in the north pole pulling him from the winter abyss we should all put him in.

Overall, all I want is change because the current formula has been very hit and miss. the time for a new era in Chicago is now and we need to strike while the iron is hot. Sustainable success is the one thing we all want as Bears fans and it needs to be built from the ground up rather than filling in the gaps.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
It is undeniable that Angelo was vilified here way out of proportion to his faults. Unless I press the point no one acknowledged that Smith helped make those decisions and got little blame for them.

Nobody gave Lovie a full pass then and few if any are doing so now. Remember the outcry here after the 2009 season when Lovie WASN'T fired? I do - I even wore this sig for a while about the debacle of a press conference the day after the season ended:



People just held Angelo more accountable because he had the final say. For all the criticism Lovie takes he has a team with probably the 2nd worst (behind AZ) OL in the entire league and the 31st most productive passing game (and only ahead of MIN because Harvin got hurt) and yet this team is 8-5. He isn't above criticism but he should credit for that, same as he should get credit for the 2010 team reaching the NFCCG with a porous offense. He hasn't won the big game (yet) and that is the only reason he isn't revered. Had we won SB XLI with no other differences to any other outcomes he would be as revered as Ditka. For what it's worth, Ditka made 3 NFCCG in 11 seasons with decidedly more talented teams than Lovie has had and he is a legend. Lovie has made 2 NFCCG in 9 seasons with teams annually having inferior talent at several key positions and people can't wait to run him out of town. Lovie isn't without flaws but he isn't the complete numbskull many make him out to be either.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lovie is not an idiot and he is not a bad football coach.

He is just not the guy who is going to turn the Bears into a top tier team. He has had 9 years and we are still incredibly inconsistent.

We need a new voice, a new vision and someone who can lead us to being a competent offense. Lovie has been given more than enough time and it is time for a change.

Andy Ried is not an idiot or a bad coach and he has been to 4 NFCCG and a Superbowl, but after 10 years or more you start to realize that while your coach is good he is not good enough.

I appreciate the comments of the last 2 posters.
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