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RavensfanRD


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 1664
Location: Baltimore, MD (Land of the Greatness)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Give me a reason Reply with quote

I'll star this off by saying take a look at my post from years past to understand this isn't recent with me. With that being said... why are Harbaugh, Cam, and Pees still here? I don't see how it couldn't be more obvious that these people are costing us games and potentially championships?

And I'm not just talking about last night's tomfoolery, no, I'm talking about years of absurd in-box losses. When I look at Harbaugh on the sidelines I don't have confidence in him on the field. I believe he's just here for the ride and escaping because of the talent we have on the field.

I've said it multiple times before. We win in spite of these people. There is no game in the last 5 years where I can say "Hey, this game was won by the coaching staff". I look at Belicheck, Tomlin, Fox and McCarthy and can say "Damn, these schemed these boys to a win". They made necessary adjustments to guide the team to the W.

I see John Harbaugh and I remember the nonsense in Jacksonville. We're down by 2 and can win with a field goal with 2 timeouts and the 2 minute warning. Why are we onside kicking the ball when the Jags couldn't move all day? When one of the best offensive players on the team doesn't touch the ball once in the 4th quarter with the lead, at home, why isn't something being said by the head coach?

I like Harbaugh, I really do, but I can't see us getting it done with him. We'll only get there IF the players can put it together. No help from the box will get us to the promise land. We're talking about the same problems from 3 and 4 years ago!

When does it end! I don't get it! If we see it at home. Jaws, Greg Cosell and many other media folks see it... why can't our Coaching Staff? I'm pretty sure now that everyone has talked it up, Ray Rice will carry the ball for 50 times. We're wasting precious time folks and it's getting old!

I want to see the sequel to this movie with us winning it all! I'm tired of being betrayed at the end by drop passes (Boldin, Housh, Lee) and going home looking stupid when we have 2 possesion leads going into the 4th! I'm tired! Somebody gotta go!

/Rant

*Flame on* Laughing
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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Give me a reason Reply with quote

RavensfanRD wrote:
I'll star this off by saying take a look at my post from years past to understand this isn't recent with me. With that being said... why are Harbaugh, Cam, and Pees still here? I don't see how it couldn't be more obvious that these people are costing us games and potentially championships?

And I'm not just talking about last night's tomfoolery, no, I'm talking about years of absurd in-box losses. When I look at Harbaugh on the sidelines I don't have confidence in him on the field. I believe he's just here for the ride and escaping because of the talent we have on the field.

I've said it multiple times before. We win in spite of these people. There is no game in the last 5 years where I can say "Hey, this game was won by the coaching staff". I look at Belicheck, Tomlin, Fox and McCarthy and can say "Damn, these schemed these boys to a win". They made necessary adjustments to guide the team to the W.

I see John Harbaugh and I remember the nonsense in Jacksonville. We're down by 2 and can win with a field goal with 2 timeouts and the 2 minute warning. Why are we onside kicking the ball when the Jags couldn't move all day? When one of the best offensive players on the team doesn't touch the ball once in the 4th quarter with the lead, at home, why isn't something being said by the head coach?

I like Harbaugh, I really do, but I can't see us getting it done with him. We'll only get there IF the players can put it together. No help from the box will get us to the promise land. We're talking about the same problems from 3 and 4 years ago!

When does it end! I don't get it! If we see it at home. Jaws, Greg Cosell and many other media folks see it... why can't our Coaching Staff? I'm pretty sure now that everyone has talked it up, Ray Rice will carry the ball for 50 times. We're wasting precious time folks and it's getting old!

I want to see the sequel to this movie with us winning it all! I'm tired of being betrayed at the end by drop passes (Boldin, Housh, Lee) and going home looking stupid when we have 2 possesion leads going into the 4th! I'm tired! Somebody gotta go!

/Rant

*Flame on* Laughing


You lost me when you mentioned John Fox.
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to make an argument to defend Cameron or Pees since I think both deserve to be fired but the head coach is a different situation entirely. When his team goes 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, and 9-3 with playoffs wins in every post-season thus far he isn't going anywhere for a while. It doesn't matter how they got those wins the fact of the matter is that they're winning. Period. I agree that Harbaugh has his flaws (mostly his choice in coordinators) but past that it's hard to say what else he should be legitimately criticzed for since we don't have any clue what goes on behind the scenes. All we're privy to are the results. Any talk of getting rid of him is just a waste of time at the moment in my opinion.

Harbaugh isn't going to be a part of the offensive or defensive scheming either, that's just not his background. I've said it before but I like a head coach that doesn't meddle where he doesn't have much experience in. It's just that the coordinators he's giving free-reign to are terrible. Are his staff choices alone enough to fire him? Probably not, and like I said I'm not expecting his job to be endangered any time soon.

The thing I'm concerned about is how protected the coordinators are with the winning games argument. You could make the case that Cameron should stick around since he's been a part of the winning under Harbaugh too but I think we're all tired of the scheme (which he is solely responsible for given his role on the team) and would like to see if something different helps Flacco and the rest of the offense. It's a bit trickier with the defense since Pees is the 4th coordinator in 5 years (Ryan, Mattison, Pagano, Pees) to work with Harbaugh and the defense has been ravaged by injuries this season. I still think his system is crap though. His history with the Patriots does nothing to convince me he'll get better even with a healthy team.
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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
I'm not going to make an argument to defend Cameron or Pees since I think both deserve to be fired but the head coach is a different situation entirely. When his team goes 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, and 9-3 with playoffs wins in every post-season thus far he isn't going anywhere for a while. It doesn't matter how they got those wins the fact of the matter is that they're winning. Period. I agree that Harbaugh has his flaws (mostly his choice in coordinators) but past that it's hard to say what else he should be legitimately criticzed for since we don't have any clue what goes on behind the scenes. All we're privy to are the results. Any talk of getting rid of him is just a waste of time at the moment in my opinion.

Harbaugh isn't going to be a part of the offensive or defensive scheming either, that's just not his background. I've said it before but I like a head coach that doesn't meddle where he doesn't have much experience in. It's just that the coordinators he's giving free-reign to are terrible. Are his staff choices alone enough to fire him? Probably not, and like I said I'm not expecting his job to be endangered any time soon.

The thing I'm concerned about is how protected the coordinators are with the winning games argument. You could make the case that Cameron should stick around since he's been a part of the winning under Harbaugh too but I think we're all tired of the scheme (which he is solely responsible for given his role on the team) and would like to see if something different helps Flacco and the rest of the offense. It's a bit trickier with the defense since Pees is the 4th coordinator in 5 years (Ryan, Mattison, Pagano, Pees) to work with Harbaugh and the defense has been ravaged by injuries this season. I still think his system is crap though. His history with the Patriots does nothing to convince me he'll get better even with a healthy team.


I wouldn't be sharpening my pitchfork if Pees is retained, especially if the reason for retaining him is injuries along with the fact that we don't want to replace 2 coordinators in one offseason Laughing

Honestly, I hope that Biscotti puts some serious pressure on Harbaugh to part ways with Cam this offseason.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah if I had to pick one of the two it would definitely be Cameron. Giving Pees one more year to see what he could with a (hopefully) healthy team makes sense. I just wouldn't be expecting much of an improvement.
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RavensfanRD


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 1664
Location: Baltimore, MD (Land of the Greatness)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Give me a reason Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
RavensfanRD wrote:
I'll star this off by saying take a look at my post from years past to understand this isn't recent with me. With that being said... why are Harbaugh, Cam, and Pees still here? I don't see how it couldn't be more obvious that these people are costing us games and potentially championships?

And I'm not just talking about last night's tomfoolery, no, I'm talking about years of absurd in-box losses. When I look at Harbaugh on the sidelines I don't have confidence in him on the field. I believe he's just here for the ride and escaping because of the talent we have on the field.

I've said it multiple times before. We win in spite of these people. There is no game in the last 5 years where I can say "Hey, this game was won by the coaching staff". I look at Belicheck, Tomlin, Fox and McCarthy and can say "Damn, these schemed these boys to a win". They made necessary adjustments to guide the team to the W.

I see John Harbaugh and I remember the nonsense in Jacksonville. We're down by 2 and can win with a field goal with 2 timeouts and the 2 minute warning. Why are we onside kicking the ball when the Jags couldn't move all day? When one of the best offensive players on the team doesn't touch the ball once in the 4th quarter with the lead, at home, why isn't something being said by the head coach?

I like Harbaugh, I really do, but I can't see us getting it done with him. We'll only get there IF the players can put it together. No help from the box will get us to the promise land. We're talking about the same problems from 3 and 4 years ago!

When does it end! I don't get it! If we see it at home. Jaws, Greg Cosell and many other media folks see it... why can't our Coaching Staff? I'm pretty sure now that everyone has talked it up, Ray Rice will carry the ball for 50 times. We're wasting precious time folks and it's getting old!

I want to see the sequel to this movie with us winning it all! I'm tired of being betrayed at the end by drop passes (Boldin, Housh, Lee) and going home looking stupid when we have 2 possesion leads going into the 4th! I'm tired! Somebody gotta go!

/Rant

*Flame on* Laughing


You lost me when you mentioned John Fox.


Don't know why. He had Tebow at the helm and went won a playoff game. His team made adjustments to fit his play style. Even had them tone it down when Kyle Orton was throwing the ball all over the place. Which is why I mentioned him.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Shanahan should be in there as well. I watched the NYG vs WAS game last night and their offensive scheme is brilliant. Tons of looks, tons of motion, tons of plays that look the same but are different, and they cause problems for defenses.

I agree with the OP in that Harbaugh can't just get a "Get out of jail free" card because of his victories here. Marty Schottenheimer was fired after a 14-2 season, and I'm not saying that was justified, but it happens. Harbaugh has been the coach and we've made the playoffs, but like the OP, I can't point to a game that we won where Harbaugh has made some good coaching decisions or anything like that, but I can point to several losses where he has made some HORRIFIC coaching decisions (Jacksonville, last Sunday, etc.).

Furthermore, I don't care if he doesn't run the offense or defense, IT'S YOUR JOB to ensure that if a player isn't getting touches, you make it known to the OC that either you want him to get touches or that he knows Ray Rice isn't getting touches. This might be a bad example, but when I'm playing Madden there are times where I just start getting so into the game that I call 12 passes in a row and not even think about running the ball, but if someone were to tell me "Hey, you haven't ran in a while and they're just playing the pass" at least the thought of running gets back in my head and I kind of step back from the situation. I don't see Harbaugh doing that at all. What I see is a coach who stands on the sidelines on gameday with a stupid face and no clue what's going on outside of yelling at the refs and throwing his challenge flag and congratulating players when they come off the field.

I'm not saying we need to fire Harbaugh, although I am saying he deserves a heavy dose of accountability for what occured last Sunday night, but he NEEDS to step it the hell up as a coach and start asserting his authority and stop being such a damn pushover to Cam, to the players, to the media, to EVERYONE. Cam is obviously not getting the job done, and neither is Dean Pees, and I don't see Harbaugh taking any authority over those guys and doing his duty as a head coach.

That's my take. I'm not a fan of coaches who do absolutely nothing on gameday besides throw challenge flags, and he can't even do that correctly most of the time.

So TL:DR; Harbaugh needs to step up, receive accountability and place some damn accountability on other coaches on the staff or else he needs to go. If we can't have a head coach who is willing to light a fire under people, we need to make a change.
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draftguru1234


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The HC is ultimately judged on wins, and those Harbs has an abundance of.

While his staff hires are puzzling, you just don't fire a coach who hasn't missed the playoffs in 5 years.
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GaTechRavens


Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Give me a reason Reply with quote

On the topic of Harbaugh...

RavensfanRD wrote:
I'll star this off by saying take a look at my post from years past to understand this isn't recent with me. With that being said... why are Harbaugh, Cam, and Pees still here? I don't see how it couldn't be more obvious that these people are costing us games and potentially championships?


Harbaugh is still here because he is 53-23. It is physically impossible for a coach to go 53-23 if he isn't doing really good things.

As for Pees, teams don't fire their coordinators midseason for a reason. Especially when so many fans have a complete blind spot when factoring injuries into Pees' performance. Coordinator instability is not healthy.

Quote:
And I'm not just talking about last night's tomfoolery, no,


No, but there's no doubt that it carries a disproportionate/unreasonable amount of weight on your outlook Monday.

Quote:
I'm talking about years of absurd in-box losses. When I look at Harbaugh on the sidelines I don't have confidence in him on the field. I believe he's just here for the ride and escaping because of the talent we have on the field.


Translation: the guy was a special teams coordinator, so I don't know what he actually does. Therefore, I will hold this against him FOREVER.

Harbaugh was

Quote:
I've said it multiple times before. We win in spite of these people. There is no game in the last 5 years where I can say "Hey, this game was won by the coaching staff". I look at Belicheck, Tomlin, Fox and McCarthy and can say "Damn, these schemed these boys to a win". They made necessary adjustments to guide the team to the W.


Translation: I don't know what they actually do, I just see their teams are winning and assume that they're doing the right things, because the best coaches are the ones who win games. Except Harbaugh.

Steeler fans are hard on Tomlin for the same reasons some Ravens fans are hard on Harbaugh. I assume many Packer fans are hard on McCarthy for the same reason. Because they believe those coaches inherited gold mines of talent and they see that they don't run the offense or defense. Those are basically the only reasons. And you know what? That's completely asinine.

Quote:
I see John Harbaugh and I remember the nonsense in Jacksonville. We're down by 2 and can win with a field goal with 2 timeouts and the 2 minute warning. Why are we onside kicking the ball when the Jags couldn't move all day? When one of the best offensive players on the team doesn't touch the ball once in the 4th quarter with the lead, at home, why isn't something being said by the head coach?


We're onside kicking the ball because we can't allow a single first down and we'd still get the ball back with a chance to win if the kick failed. That was a very smart call that not every coach would make.

Quote:
I like Harbaugh, I really do, but I can't see us getting it done with him.


You want a 53-23 coach to be fired. You do not like him.

Quote:
We'll only get there IF the players can put it together. No help from the box will get us to the promise land. We're talking about the same problems from 3 and 4 years ago!


The only problem that's really been the same is Cam Cameron. That's why you fire him. You don't fire Harbaugh.

And you don't fire Harbaugh for standing by Cameron, either. That's insane. If you think his loyalty to his coordinators is a problem, then you override him in that one case. You don't fire the guy. You don't sacrifice all of the great thinga Harbaugh brings to the table along with that.

Quote:
When does it end! I don't get it! If we see it at home. Jaws, Greg Cosell and many other media folks see it... why can't our Coaching Staff? I'm pretty sure now that everyone has talked it up, Ray Rice will carry the ball for 50 times. We're wasting precious time folks and it's getting old!


Yes, Cameron should be fired. And he probably will be when the season is over.
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bmorecareful


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong I want a Superbowl as bad as the next guy but to act like this team hasn't been better with Harbaugh than before he came is just ridiculous. You can point out our flaws but think about it we have had 4 DC in five years. We were all but guaranteed to fire Cam last year then he called the game in New England. We felt we lost that game due to poor special teams and the lack of a decent third receiving option. We Addressed both and now have the best special teams in the NFL and a viable third option. Then we started to get injured and had a letdown in Pittsburgh. Its a long season man we learn about ourselves more ever week u would like to see more but what difference does it make we need to be playing our best come playoffs and our best can still compete with anyone. Its funny to me though because before Harbaugh we never made the playoffs consistently now we are on pace to finish with the best record in the North for the third straight year. No doubt something needs to be done (namely get rid of Cam) but overall as Ravens fans I think we forget how up and down we were before Harbaugh and Flacco
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of in the middle on Harbaugh. I don't mind him, but I'm not a huge fan either. He makes some mistakes, but he's a young inexperienced head coach and I think he's only getting better. Pretty much the only reason I can see for firing Harbaugh is because he kept Cam. If he gets rid of him after this season, I'm definitely fine with keeping Harbaugh as the head coach.
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Baltimore Pride


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fine with Harbaugh. I thought he called a overly conservative game today, to the point it hurt us more than helped and his issues with timeouts still plague our team.

The real issue lies with Cam and Pees. Cam is as predictable as he is inconsistent and Pees can't scheme his way out of coloring book maze. The sad truth is we'll more than likely be stuck with both or at the very least 1 of them going forward.

At this point I would much rather see Cam go, hes just a bad omen at this point, the Montezuma's Revenge for whenever our team takes a lead. I can't stand watching our team try and find ways to win in spite of Cam any longer.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baltimore Pride wrote:
I'm fine with Harbaugh. I thought he called a overly conservative game today, to the point it hurt us more than helped and his issues with timeouts still plague our team.

The real issue lies with Cam and Pees. Cam is as predictable as he is inconsistent and Pees can't scheme his way out of coloring book maze. The sad truth is we'll more than likely be stuck with both or at the very least 1 of them going forward.

At this point I would much rather see Cam go, hes just a bad omen at this point, the Montezuma's Revenge for whenever our team takes a lead. I can't stand watching our team try and find ways to win in spite of Cam any longer.


Agreed, if anyone gets to stick around it's Pees. While both of them have been absolutely horrible, Pees has the excuse of injuries, whereas Cam has absolutely zero excuse for NOT using Boldin and Rice more than he has over the season and today (especially today with Boldin).
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RavensfanRD


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we have 40 or so secs left with timeouts and we sit on the ball in hostile territory. Laughing

Hell of a comeback by the Redskins. Ravens are who I thought they were. But when change comes, it may be too little too late.
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Mancunian Raven


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only real problem I have with Harbaugh is his stubborn loyalty to people who don't seem to be doing anything to deserve such loyalty.

Cam called an okay game today, but I think he's instilled a mindset in the offense that allows for mental lapses both in key moments, and for entire quarters. The stop-start nature of the Ravens offense has to be on Cam's shoulders, because he's the guy tasked with creating an identity and a culture within those players.

So far, the man has not lived up to the bold claims made in pre-season, that the team would transition to a stronger, more consistent, explosive offense that would win games without the need for a strong defense.

So, given that Cam has not done the things expected of him, I really need to see Harbaugh make the move he needs to make as head coach, and tell him enough is enough.

Pees, it's too early to judge, and there are too many injuries on defense to really be too critical. But I find the team's pass coverage to be seriously lacking, and it doesn't seem to have been addressed. It looks more scheme related than player related, too.

But, one area where I think Harbs has shown that he can take decisive action is Special Teams.

Last year, to be blunt, the Ravens sucked on Special Teams. They gave up return TDs, they struggled with their own return game and they had an inconsistent, dangerously unreliable kicker.

Harbaugh and Ozzie have addressed all of those concerns in this off-season. They signed some dedicated Special Teams guys for the coverage units, and they brought in Jacoby Jones to return kicks, which he's proving to be devastatingly effective at (so much so that the Redskins were deliberately kicking it away from him). But the biggest decision, I think, was signing a rookie kicker and cutting a well-liked veteran (the aforementioned dangerously unreliable guy).

The upshot of that is that the Ravens' Special Teams unit has become a legitimate weapon where before it was a liability. Harbaugh deserves a lot of credit for that.
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