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Darkness
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 4153
Location: CA-TX
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 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bitty wrote: | | Darkness wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | Posted in the Te'o thread but applies here:
Not sure who the 'elite' players are in this draft if any, but that's what the Raiders need.
Star, Te'o, Moore don't jump of the screen.
IMO Werner flashes more but comes in underrated.
Warmack IMO is the best player in this draft, but you don't draft G that high right? Warmack might be as close to 'elite' as I see in this class |
There will be quite a few great defensive players to come out of this draft IMO. In most drafts, you're lucky to have 5 elite prospects in the top 10. But the potential could still be there for other players. JPP, CM3, A Smith, and Watt weren't viewed as elite prospects, but their GM's did a great job of recognizing their talent and potential.
In this years draft, there's a ton of great defensive talent, particularly in the front 7. I have no doubt we'll have our choice of a few defensive cornerstones, regardless of where we pick. I can't wait to see who Reggie ends up liking.  |
This is the deepest DL class ever. The Raiders can get top 20 talent in the second round. |
Yeah. I'm just glad we have our 1st round pick this year. It would have been great to have it last year too, but this years class plays way better to our needs. Dontari Poe was the first DL drafted last year and Bruce Irvin the first pass rusher. Both have high potential, but neither are the kind of prospects that should be getting drafted 1st at their positions.
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El ramster made the sig!
| candyman93 wrote: | Reading Darkness posts you'd think the warriors were playoff contenders  |
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Raidin
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 4308
Location: Dublin
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sucks we don't have our second round pick. Could have then went BPA in the first and went DL in the second.
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NickButera
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 5015
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Raidin wrote: | | Sucks we don't have our second round pick. Could have then went BPA in the first and went DL in the second. |
If we get a high enough pick (top 5), the chance of trading down 4 or 5 spots and getting a 2nd rounder and maybe more is a good possibility. Just read today in Schefter's 10 spot that he thinks Te'o will go in the 10-15 range. FWIW. He'd be a much better pick there than in the top 5 IMO.
D-line is deep this year (like most recent years), if we could get a mid 2nd rounder I have no doubt we could be getting a good starter.
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Bah-Weep-Granah-Weep-Nini-Bong
My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. |
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Darkness
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 4153
Location: CA-TX
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| NickButera wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | Sucks we don't have our second round pick. Could have then went BPA in the first and went DL in the second. |
If we get a high enough pick (top 5), the chance of trading down 4 or 5 spots and getting a 2nd rounder and maybe more is a good possibility. Just read today in Schefter's 10 spot that he thinks Te'o will go in the 10-15 range. FWIW. He'd be a much better pick there than in the top 5 IMO.
D-line is deep this year (like most recent years), if we could get a mid 2nd rounder I have no doubt we could be getting a good starter. |
I have my doubts. There will be a significant talent drop off on edge rushers by the time the mid 2nd round comes around. We could probably land a DT there, but we can't pass on an impact pass rusher in the 1st. Wouldn't make sense with all the talent that will be available and our need at the position.
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El ramster made the sig!
| candyman93 wrote: | | Reading Darkness posts you'd think the warriors were playoff contenders |
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LivingLegendWFC
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 10956
Location: BP On The Geno Sig
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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The way I see it there are two elite pass rushing prospects in Jarvis Jones and Damontre Moore, then two very good pass rushing prospects in Werner and Okafor, and then you have the two overrated LSU defensive ends. After that it gets a bit cluttered with decent prospects but probably not anyone that is going to be an immediate contributor. Though I will say Corey Lemonier is a sleeper that has a great skill set.
Moore and Jones sit atop my big board for us. Those are two guys that I think are going to contribute early on and have the potential to be All Pros. I don't like the idea of passing up one of those guys for someone else and hope to find an impact pass rusher later because I don't think anybody in the third round is going to upgrade our pass rush enough to see any marketable improvement in our defense.
I think three are some solid DTs in that third round range that can contribute to run defense and help in that regard early on, and there are some pretty solid free agent options as well. You can find guys to help sure up the run defense in the mid rounds easier then finding a great pass rusher.
I don't love the CBs in this draft and while we nerved quite a bit of help there I think upgrading the pass rush would help more then anything. And we need help at LB, but again I believe its much easier to find serviceable LBs in the mid rounds then it is to find a guy that can boost your pass rush.
Now I'm not saying we should reach on a pass rusher if Moore and Jones are off the board but if either guy is there they should be the pick IMO. Those two guys would go a long way to transforming our defense into a good one then and would offer a greater impact then some of the other top defensive prospects. And I typically like the idea of going BPA and not drafting simply for need, but in this case I think both of these guys constitute as both.
Bottom line if you can't put any pressure on the QB your defense is going to struggle, especially when you pair that with poor play on the back end. The secondary needs a lot of help, but fixing the secondary before upgrading your pass rush is foolish, doing so is only going to lead to more poor defensive play. We desperately Ned a guy that can apply pressure on the edge, until we have a guy capable of doing that were going to continue to struggle on the defensive side of the ball. It has to be our first priority and this draft is a great time t do so considering the prospects in this draft and where were picking.
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Favorite Prospects - Tank Carradine, Kwame Geathers, Gerald Hodges, Justin Hunter, Luke Joeckel, Barrett Jones, Jarvis Jones, Corey Lemonier, Bacarri Rambo, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Larry Warford, |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 7076
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| NickButera wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | | Sucks we don't have our second round pick. Could have then went BPA in the first and went DL in the second. |
If we get a high enough pick (top 5), the chance of trading down 4 or 5 spots and getting a 2nd rounder and maybe more is a good possibility. Just read today in Schefter's 10 spot that he thinks Te'o will go in the 10-15 range. FWIW. He'd be a much better pick there than in the top 5 IMO.
D-line is deep this year (like most recent years), if we could get a mid 2nd rounder I have no doubt we could be getting a good starter. |
I seriously can't believe some of you guys want the next Rolando McClain type of player in our defense in Manti Te'o. He doesn't have the speed or athleticism to play in the 4-3 as he lacks sideline to sideline range. And he struggles to get off of blocks when they get to the second level, yet we have nothing resembling a defensive line that could keep him clean. He'd be worse than McClain in our defense and another huge setback for our franchise. We can't waste another top ten selection on an inside backer.
If we move back I really hope we look at Sheldon Richardson, Werner, Banks, or Milliner.
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JTagg7754
Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 7221
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LivingLegendWFC wrote: | | JTagg7754 wrote: | | Pozzi wrote: | | With the rookie salary cap and the crazy amount of trades that happened in the top of last years draft, it shows us teams are less afraid to trade up and get their guy now. So if our guy isn't there, maybe it won't be as hard to trade out and down and collect some more picks. |
Normally i don't expect trade downs but if we are picking high, and for the reasons you mentioned, I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen... not at all and I'm definitely rooting for it. We need as many picks as we can get. W/ our cap issues, this is the best way to build for the future. Maybe not immediate future but definitely later down the line. |
Not that I disagree with the idea of a trade down, just curious as o your personal opinion on draft strategy, but at what point would you rather stay put and draft what should be a blue chip prospect rather then gaining more draft picks to use on more flawed prospects? Do you support trading down simply because we need so much, or are you always a fan of gaining more draft picks?
I like the idea of trading down, but I got to thinking about it and I started to convinced myself that we really don't have one star or elite player. Yes we need a ton of help everywhere, but how do you weigh having one elite player vs having a couple of good solid players. Now obviously elite players can be found outside of the top five, but one would think your odds are higher of finding a true franchise player higher in the draft.
I want as many picks as possible, but the thing I want most is a truly elite player that we can build around for the future. Then again this draft isn't the greatest draft I can recall, especially at the top so acquiring more chances at finding a gem may be the way too go, but if you fall in love with someone at the top of the draft that your coincident is a franchise player do you pass that up for more draft picks that your maybe not as confident in? |
My stance on this draft differs from most. I don't really see too many standout prospects in this class. I find it kinda weak. For that reason, we should accumulate. Had this been a draft in different years, I'm on board w/ getting a "blue chip" prospect. I just don't see too many of those in this draft. Again, my stance could change but that's where I'm at right now.
So my logic is, stockpile picks, draft as many people to fill as many voids as possible (BPA should work since we need so much) THEN go after that blue chipper next draft as I feel that class will be better than this. Normally I'm against trading down but combined w/ the fact that we have so many needs and there's not many standout, sure-fire prospects makes me want to lean that way this time around.
Moore is a solid prospect but is he really worth drafting that high? Is he best suited to put his hand on the ground or stand up? Is Jones back gonna hold up enough to warrant that high of a pick? The question marks surrounding the "top prospects" worries me. If we could get to the middle of the first or even later in the single digits while getting more picks, I see much, much more value as I feel the prospects will be around the same talent level and we'll have more picks.
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| NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | Quote: |
you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs? |
not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them |
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NickButera
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 5015
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bo_Spice wrote: | | I seriously can't believe some of you guys want the next Rolando McClain type of player in our defense in Manti Te'o. |
If we're picking in the 9-13 range, and he's available, he's probably the BPA. At that point all the elite edge rushers will be off the board and we'll need the biggest help on defense we can find. There's no facts out there that says he's gong to bust like Rolando, that's just an opinion, and a minority one at that. His character style is completely different, so if anything, there's much more evidence to say he's gong to be a much better leader.
Just because we busted on a MLB pick doesn't mean picking another MLB in this draft is a bad thing.
That being said, I would much rather get as good of a pass rusher as we can get. But I certainly won't be upset if we ended up with Te'o.
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Bah-Weep-Granah-Weep-Nini-Bong
My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. |
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 7076
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| NickButera wrote: | If we're picking in the 9-13 range, and he's available, he's probably the BPA. At that point all the elite edge rushers will be off the board and we'll need the biggest help on defense we can find. There's no facts out there that says he's gong to bust like Rolando, that's just an opinion, and a minority one at that. His character style is completely different, so if anything, there's much more evidence to say he's gong to be a much better leader.
Just because we busted on a MLB pick doesn't mean picking another MLB in this draft is a bad thing.
That being said, I would much rather get as good of a pass rusher as we can get. But I certainly won't be upset if we ended up with Te'o. |
From another thread.
| Bo_Spice wrote: | The media loves Te'o more than they loved McClain so that obviously makes him a better prospect and a better fit for our defense than McClain, duh!
But in all seriousness, Te'o and McClain do have some similarities as prospects. Both played in a 3-4 behind a dominant defensive line that kept them clean. Both played on the best defense in college football which made them look better than they actually were. Both have a hard time getting off of blocks when they do reach the second level, both lack elite speed or quickness which limits them to a 3-4 defense because they don't have sideline to sideline range.
Even their measurable's are pretty similar.
McClain 6'3" 250, 4.69 forty.
Te'o 6'2" 255, 4.68 forty. (Projected) |
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bitty
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 2985
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| You can't properly evaluate the LB's with the DT's we have. There's always an O-lineman on top of them. The Raiders need DT's that occupy blockers so the LB's can flow to the ball. |
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early43
Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 982
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Per NFLN, Marcus Lattimore is going to enter the draft.
Worth a late look? |
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19019
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| bitty wrote: | | You can't properly evaluate the LB's with the DT's we have. There's always an O-lineman on top of them. The Raiders need DT's that occupy blockers so the LB's can flow to the ball. |
Good LBs can shed blocks and use their hands to create space. The DT excuse only goes so far. Open field tackling has nothing to do with the DTs.
Can you stack and shed a blocker. That is the mark of a good LB.
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Bo_Spice
Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 7076
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| early43 wrote: | Per NFLN, Marcus Lattimore is going to enter the draft.
Worth a late look? |
I wouldn't mind using a 6th or 7th round pick on him even if he has to miss most of next season. Depending on how his knee checks out though I could see him being an UDFA.
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19019
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm actually on board with Jtagg.
Stockpile as many picks as possible. Try landing about 10-12 rookies of various position and see what shakes out.
The Raiders need talent and depth. Best they can do is add lots of it and hopefully find a stud or 2 in the mix.
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Oaktown
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 3125
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Trading down would be ideal but I think it will be hard this year.
The lack of elite talent hurts.
Teams like Buffalo, Arizona, NYJ could want to move up for a qb.
Last year everyone knew Luck was going 1 then St Louis made that huge trade. I don't think we will know who goes 1 this year until the week of the draft. |
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