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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
Boise&cards Fan wrote:
khodder wrote:
Here is a question.

Does Ken have a legitimate thought that this season would have been so much different save for the Kolb injury?

I think the fact that he named Skelton the starter out of TC hurts his stance, but ultimately when it mattered I think he was going to stick with Kevin right through if he had stayed healthy and this team likely looks very different right now across the board and in record if Kolb did not get injured.


Still think we lose all but the Falcons game and the Jets game.


That's 6-6. I doubt he's under half as much pressure as he is now at 6-6.


True but still think we finish 6-10 or 7-9
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khodder


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Still think we lose all but the Falcons game and the Jets game.


Second Rams game?

And if we win those two we are 6-6 and had a 5 game losing streak that included two very tough road trips (@MN, @GB) and a tough home test vs SF.

This season looks entirely different if Arizona is 6-6 or 7-5. And that is where Kolb could have them.
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Still think we lose all but the Falcons game and the Jets game.


Second Rams game?

And if we win those two we are 6-6 and had a 5 game losing streak that included two very tough road trips (@MN, @GB) and a tough home test vs SF.

This season looks entirely different if Arizona is 6-6 or 7-5. And that is where Kolb could have them.


Nothing Kolb did in the first Rams game makes me believe he would have won them the 2nd rams game.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Nothing Kolb did in the first Rams game makes me believe he would have won them the 2nd rams game.


Despite the complete change in performance from the entire OL (Which was the reason for the Kolb stuggles in the first meetin) we gave up two Pick 6's and another 2 INT's.

Even if you take away the Pick 6's that is 17-17. I am not saying we do win, but it is going to be a very close game and we get far closer with Kolb than we do with Lindley.
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Last edited by khodder on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
khodder wrote:
Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Still think we lose all but the Falcons game and the Jets game.


Second Rams game?

And if we win those two we are 6-6 and had a 5 game losing streak that included two very tough road trips (@MN, @GB) and a tough home test vs SF.

This season looks entirely different if Arizona is 6-6 or 7-5. And that is where Kolb could have them.


Nothing Kolb did in the first Rams game makes me believe he would have won them the 2nd rams game.


That's not a great argument to make. Bobby Massie got embarassed in the 1st Rams game and then was lights out in the 2nd. Players watch the tape and make corrections. Get a tough game on the road turned into a game at home. Happens all the time.
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tthis is all what if here and that not really what matter. We can't change what happen. Kolb got hurt and there no real way to know if Arizona would be any different.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to put this out there;

1 - If/When we fire Ken do not be surprised when he picks up work quickly.
2 - When he picks up work quickly do not be surprised when his offenses start to put up big points.
3 - Schematically what Ken Whisenhunt does is very, very good.
4 - Schematically what Ken Whisenhunt does is very, very complicated.
5 - The issue is not with scheme here, the issue is not with playcalling here.
6 - We had this same scheme and the same playcalls when we put up 27 PPG and made a trip to the Superbowl. I did not hear a lot of complaints about scheme then.
7 - The issue lies within the management of the Roster.
8 - Ken has struggled with the management of the offensive roster and in particular the Quarterback position and the Offensive Line.
9 - Past Kurt Warner Ken never really had any answers.
10 - We had Matt Leinart, but you get the feeling that Ken never really liked him.
11 - We had no succession plan in place behind Kurt, hence us ending up with Anderson/Skelton/Hall starting for us.
12 - We rushed Skelton onto the field.
13 - We then panicked on Kolb.
14 - We then rushed Lindley onto the field.
15 - The nail in the coffin of Ken Whisenhunt is not going to be schematics, it is not going to be playcalling, it is not going to be his "losing" of the football team, it is going to be his terrible mismanagement of the Quarterback position.
16 - Ken will learn from this.
17 - I don't doubt Ken will be a Head Coach in this league again past this stint in Arizona.
18 - I would not bet against Ken having a large degree of success as a Head Coach in the future.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The QB debacle is on him and he's ignored the OL for years. If it wasn't for Ray Horton (who I give credit to Whiz for hiring) we'd be a 2-3 win team this year and last... I don't see him getting a HC job in the future but then again guys Norv Turner have gotten 3 opportunities. The NFL has a short memory.
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame Whiz for putting Qb that don't fit his system into his system and refusing to change the offense to the strength of the QB that he has named the starter. Only few QB can do what Kurt did and Arizona does not have one close to that on its roster.

Sure the Scheme is nice if they have a QB like Kurt but it completely flawed if you don't have someone like him. You change the offense to your players you do not force your players into a offense.

I don't think Whiz will every see his offense do good again until he gets a QB like Kurt to run it.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I blame Whiz for putting Qb that don't fit his system into his system and refusing to change the offense to the strength of the QB that he has named the starter. Only few QB can do what Kurt did and Arizona does not have one close to that on its roster..


What? Which QB's didn't fit his system? You could argue Max Hall, but that is about it. Whis' system wants a big armed guy to stretch the field vertically forcing the opposition to keep two safeties deep. He can then run the football against a 7 man front and throw shorter routes into spaces vacated by having two deep safeties (pre snap). Anderson, Skelton, Lindley all fit this system, issue is two of them were thrown into the game far two early and the third never got his accuracy to the point where he could execute the plays.

There are a lot of NFL QB's that can operate and operate successfully in the Whisenhunt system, don't act like you need a HoF caliber QB to be successful with it. Matt Cassell had his best NFL season under Todd Haley in an offense that incorporated a heck of a lot of what Whisenhunt wants to do.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Sure the Scheme is nice if they have a QB like Kurt but it completely flawed if you don't have someone like him. You change the offense to your players you do not force your players into a offense. .


The scheme is nice if you have a Quarterback that can execute it. It is not about Kurt, it is about the Quarterbacks making the throws that they should. Again you come back to putting players into the wrong scheme, why? That is patently false, it is the lack of execution from the players. Now that does come back on Ken, but it has nothing to do with his schematics it is about his management of the roster.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I don't think Whiz will every see his offense do good again until he gets a QB like Kurt to run it.


Just wait. You will see a veteran QB with a semi-decent arm tearing up the league in a Whisenhunt run offense in the next 2 years if he is fired after this season.
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Yibbyl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I blame Whiz for putting Qb that don't fit his system into his system and refusing to change the offense to the strength of the QB that he has named the starter. Only few QB can do what Kurt did and Arizona does not have one close to that on its roster..


What? Which QB's didn't fit his system? You could argue Max Hall, but that is about it. Whis' system wants a big armed guy to stretch the field vertically forcing the opposition to keep two safeties deep. He can then run the football against a 7 man front and throw shorter routes into spaces vacated by having two deep safeties (pre snap). Anderson, Skelton, Lindley all fit this system, issue is two of them were thrown into the game far two early and the third never got his accuracy to the point where he could execute the plays.

There are a lot of NFL QB's that can operate and operate successfully in the Whisenhunt system, don't act like you need a HoF caliber QB to be successful with it. Matt Cassell had his best NFL season under Todd Haley in an offense that incorporated a heck of a lot of what Whisenhunt wants to do.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Sure the Scheme is nice if they have a QB like Kurt but it completely flawed if you don't have someone like him. You change the offense to your players you do not force your players into a offense. .


The scheme is nice if you have a Quarterback that can execute it. It is not about Kurt, it is about the Quarterbacks making the throws that they should. Again you come back to putting players into the wrong scheme, why? That is patently false, it is the lack of execution from the players. Now that does come back on Ken, but it has nothing to do with his schematics it is about his management of the roster.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I don't think Whiz will every see his offense do good again until he gets a QB like Kurt to run it.


Just wait. You will see a veteran QB with a semi-decent arm tearing up the league in a Whisenhunt run offense in the next 2 years if he is fired after this season.

First bolded: You failed to mention Kolb. Certainly, Kolb does not have that big of an arm, at least by NFL standards. Given how much it cost to acquire him, to be fair, you can't avoid addressing him in this discussion IMHO.

Second bolded: True and it will be at the expense of the running game.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yibbyl wrote:
khodder wrote:
Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I blame Whiz for putting Qb that don't fit his system into his system and refusing to change the offense to the strength of the QB that he has named the starter. Only few QB can do what Kurt did and Arizona does not have one close to that on its roster..


What? Which QB's didn't fit his system? You could argue Max Hall, but that is about it. Whis' system wants a big armed guy to stretch the field vertically forcing the opposition to keep two safeties deep. He can then run the football against a 7 man front and throw shorter routes into spaces vacated by having two deep safeties (pre snap). Anderson, Skelton, Lindley all fit this system, issue is two of them were thrown into the game far two early and the third never got his accuracy to the point where he could execute the plays.

There are a lot of NFL QB's that can operate and operate successfully in the Whisenhunt system, don't act like you need a HoF caliber QB to be successful with it. Matt Cassell had his best NFL season under Todd Haley in an offense that incorporated a heck of a lot of what Whisenhunt wants to do.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
Sure the Scheme is nice if they have a QB like Kurt but it completely flawed if you don't have someone like him. You change the offense to your players you do not force your players into a offense. .


The scheme is nice if you have a Quarterback that can execute it. It is not about Kurt, it is about the Quarterbacks making the throws that they should. Again you come back to putting players into the wrong scheme, why? That is patently false, it is the lack of execution from the players. Now that does come back on Ken, but it has nothing to do with his schematics it is about his management of the roster.

Boise&cards Fan wrote:
I don't think Whiz will every see his offense do good again until he gets a QB like Kurt to run it.


Just wait. You will see a veteran QB with a semi-decent arm tearing up the league in a Whisenhunt run offense in the next 2 years if he is fired after this season.

First bolded: You failed to mention Kolb. Certainly, Kolb does not have that big of an arm, at least by NFL standards. Given how much it cost to acquire him, to be fair, you can't avoid addressing him in this discussion IMHO.

Second bolded: True and it will be at the expense of the running game.


Yeah, but Kolb does not fit the offense in the same way that Kurt Warner did not fit the offense. They were not ideal fits for it, but they could succeed in it.

It might and it might not. The passing game will likely dictate the game, but when you can run the ball against 7 man fronts you are going to run the ball more often and you are going to get better results.

If you look at our playoff run in 08, that is how a Whisenhunt offense works at his best, We had 23 carries from our backs vs ATL vs Carolina we had 40+ carries from our RB's against the Eagels we had 29 carries from our backs.

We did not run it often against the Steelers But we were down 10-0 and 20-7 at different points in that football game.

Whis wants to use the pass to open up the run. He wants to throw the ball early, score early, keep defenses honest with a deep ball, make them keep their two safeties deep and then shorten the game on the ground.

During those playoffs, outside of the Superbowl there were not really any outstanding throws that really stick out to me. No throws that say "Wowee only Kurt could make that happen" but they were smart throws. Heck some were not even that smart. Throwing it up to Larry in double coverage, TWICE, and having him come down with it.

You need a good QB to run the system, but lets not act like it has to be a HOF calibre player.
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Yibbyl


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HOF?!? Umm, yeah, I definitely didn't utter that! Just was noticing you stated that the desired QB for Whis' offense has a strong arm to get the ball deep. You brought up how most of the QB's on recent rosters fit, but failed to address Kolb, even though Kolb was the QB Whis had to actually go after...he didn't just fall into our laps. Odd that he pursued and paid a significant price for a QB who wasn't ideal for his system. Just sayin'.

Whis may subscribe to the pass opens up the run philosophy, but I know of no other NFL coaches who share that philosophy and run the ball less than 40% of the time like Whis does! IMHO, Whis' offense is so out of balance that it actually hurts the overall team. It is more likely to result in a lower TOP, which gives opposing team's offenses more opportunities to score. Of course, this also means the D spends more time on the field, risking getting gassed, which makes their play even less effective. I have never liked his offense. Ever. It forces the D to consistently be far superior, not just solid, in order to win games. Given injuries alone, that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little birdy told me today that Ray Horton has been working on compiling a list of potential coordinator candidates. Whether the front office had anything to do with this I don't know but Ray obviously is gearing up for a head job somewhere.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
A little birdy told me today that Ray Horton has been working on compiling a list of potential coordinator candidates. Whether the front office had anything to do with this I don't know but Ray obviously is gearing up for a head job somewhere.


Now if only that birdy would tell us who he is looking at then...

Also, if the birdy knows then so will Ken and most of the staff and so will all of those in the Front Office.
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