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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
You know what it seems like...it seems like after every season there's a very convenient "excuse" to keep Cameron around, or rather an excuse as to why we shouldn't fire him. In '09 it was his first season, in '10 it was the lockout, and then last year it was Pagano leaving. What's it gonna be this year when this team falls short, again?

In order to grow you have to suffer, and if firing Cam means this team is set back ONE year, maybe that's a good thing, because right now we're already being set back by Cam's mere presence on the coaching staff.
'09 wasn't Cam's first season, '08 was. And there wasn't a good reason to fire him in '09, because at that point Flacco had been progressing well and all things considered, he was actually doing a good job.

What you call 'excuses' are simply reasons. Reasons why Harbaugh did what he did. One of those reasons being that we were flat out 1 play away from the Super Bowl last year, so he sought stability over an unknown quantity. I would have rather fired Cam as well, but I understand Harbaugh's reasoning. You don't have to agree with it, but the point is that there were two really simple explanations for the reasons why he didn't fire Cam these past 2 seasons, neither of which have anything to do with evaluating Cam at the end of this season. And I think he knows he put himself on a limb this past year giving Cam another shot. I'd be surprised if Cameron is back next year unless the offense turns it on down the stretch.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
draftguru1234 wrote:
Guys, Cam ain't going anywhere....
I wouldn't be so sure. All depends on how we do in the playoffs (provided we get there). He was retained this year because our top choice to replace him, Norv Turner, wasn't fired by San Diego and because of how close we came to to the Super Bowl. I think Harbaugh looked at this team and how close they got in their current form and decided that big, structural changes on both sides of the ball (with Pagano leaving) wasn't the prudent direction to go in if the team had already established that it was capable of going all the way. Not saying that I love the line of thinking, but it's important to understand that this isn't just some situation where Harbaugh refuses to fire his buddies or something like that, as the more anti-Harbaugh faction likes to think.

I think unless we end up in a situation where the offense delivers for us in the postseason in a big way (ie Flacco hitting Lee Evans for the AFC-winning touchdown pass last year), firing Cam will be on the table. Not saying it's a definite occurrence, but it's something that will be under a lot of consideration, particularly if we flame out in such a way that really points to stagnation. You could at least look at 2011 vs. 2010 and '09 as real progress, in that we got over our Pittsburgh hump and were arguably the class of the AFC last year and would have gone to the Super Bowl if not for some really unfortunate circumstances. Even if it wasn't the ultimate goal, there was reason to feel like the team was making steps forward. But at this point there's no way to spin anything as progress unless we're playing for a Super Bowl in Feburary, and so if we're not, I think a change will be under consideration.

Harbaugh pushed Mattison out and probably would have pushed Cameron out after '10 if not for the impending lockout. He's also got a very demanding owner in Bisciotti to answer to. And I just don't think anyone here can talk with authority about what Harbaugh will or won't do in several months when it's actually decision time.


Completely agree here. I think the last 2 seasons Cam may have been on the hot seat but both seasons we needed a new DC for varying reasons. And when you're a team with SB aspirations, you don't just swap out both sides of the ball for all new systems at the same time -- if it backfires, Harbaugh is on the hot seat himself.

That said, while I don't really like Pees, I can tolerate him more than I can Cam at this point -- which is weird, all season I thought Cam was doing an ok job but I see him slowly regressing back into his stupid ways. Whereas Pees seems to be able to make some pretty good adjustments during the game and it seems like the players are beginning to play well in his system. Don't get my wrong, I still dislike the 'bend but don't break' mentality, but I can tolerate it for now.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
I'd be surprised if Cameron is back next year unless the offense turns it on down the stretch.


I agree -- there really hasn't been any improvement shown from last year to this year that Cam could point to as support for keeping his job unless they turn it on for the rest of the year which is unlikely. I think Pees stays and we let Cam go personally.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
You know what it seems like...it seems like after every season there's a very convenient "excuse" to keep Cameron around, or rather an excuse as to why we shouldn't fire him. In '09 it was his first season, in '10 it was the lockout, and then last year it was Pagano leaving. What's it gonna be this year when this team falls short, again?

In order to grow you have to suffer, and if firing Cam means this team is set back ONE year, maybe that's a good thing, because right now we're already being set back by Cam's mere presence on the coaching staff.
'09 wasn't Cam's first season, '08 was. And there wasn't a good reason to fire him in '09, because at that point Flacco had been progressing well and all things considered, he was actually doing a good job.

What you call 'excuses' are simply reasons. Reasons why Harbaugh did what he did. One of those reasons being that we were flat out 1 play away from the Super Bowl last year, so he sought stability over an unknown quantity. I would have rather fired Cam as well, but I understand Harbaugh's reasoning. You don't have to agree with it, but the point is that there were two really simple explanations for the reasons why he didn't fire Cam these past 2 seasons, neither of which have anything to do with evaluating Cam at the end of this season. And I think he knows he put himself on a limb this past year giving Cam another shot. I'd be surprised if Cameron is back next year unless the offense turns it on down the stretch.


1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.

2.) I agree with your last sentence. After all the hyping Cam did during the offseason of how different our offense would look under the no-huddle, it looks exactly the same and we are getting the same results and actually as the year has gone on, Joe has looked worse and worse in terms of just about everything.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Exactly, those teams are generally in full rebuild mode (in fairness a lot of people around here and on the radio *cough* Glenne Yeunes *cough* have been beating that drum in the offseason, which baffles me).

Also, I agree that Cam will probably be pushed out this offseason barring a SB win. Harbs went out on a limb for him and if we don't get it done this year, then perhaps Biscotti demands it.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Well considering our defense is one of the worst in the league right now and our offense is middle-of-the-road at best, it seems to me like 2 coordinator changes can't really hurt us that bad.

But even with that said, I'll grant you both that point. But after this year, if we don't get it done I can't see Cam Cameron coming back. Idk why Pees would be back either but Cam should FOR SURE be gone.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Well considering our defense is one of the worst in the league right now and our offense is middle-of-the-road at best, it seems to me like 2 coordinator changes can't really hurt us that bad.

But even with that said, I'll grant you both that point. But after this year, if we don't get it done I can't see Cam Cameron coming back. Idk why Pees would be back either but Cam should FOR SURE be gone.


I definitely think Pees will be back. While we don't like his scheme much, we have shown improvement in it, and he faced a stacked deck against him.

We started the season without 3 starters from last season (Redding, JJ and Suggs) -- then we lost 2 of our star players in Ray and Webb, and got Suggs back on a limited basis. Then we lost Jimmy to injury, Ngata banged up, Ed with his shoulder injuries, etc. We're starting Corey Freakin' Graham at CB. And while we're still defnitely not what we're used to, we've shown improvement. That, coupled with the fact it was Pees first year installing his system, is a huge reason why he'll 99.9% sure be back next season. I don't necessarily agree with it, but all signs points to him coming back -- especially if we get rid of Cam because again, good teams aren't ditching both coordinators in the same off-season.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Well considering our defense is one of the worst in the league right now and our offense is middle-of-the-road at best, it seems to me like 2 coordinator changes can't really hurt us that bad.

But even with that said, I'll grant you both that point. But after this year, if we don't get it done I can't see Cam Cameron coming back. Idk why Pees would be back either but Cam should FOR SURE be gone.


I definitely think Pees will be back. While we don't like his scheme much, we have shown improvement in it, and he faced a stacked deck against him.

We started the season without 3 starters from last season (Redding, JJ and Suggs) -- then we lost 2 of our star players in Ray and Webb, and got Suggs back on a limited basis. Then we lost Jimmy to injury, Ngata banged up, Ed with his shoulder injuries, etc. We're starting Corey Freakin' Graham at CB. And while we're still defnitely not what we're used to, we've shown improvement. That, coupled with the fact it was Pees first year installing his system, is a huge reason why he'll 99.9% sure be back next season. I don't necessarily agree with it, but all signs points to him coming back -- especially if we get rid of Cam because again, good teams aren't ditching both coordinators in the same off-season.


We started out terribad, then got somewhat decent, and now we are going quickly back down to being terrible again.

It's not the injuries that I'm even worried about, it's the general scheme. There are pieces for him to work with and to be able to be creative with, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SUCH GREAT DEPTH according to all of you, but now that we have injuries you are like "Well, we had injuries and blah blah blah", but isn't that the reason we drafted guys like Kruger, Upshaw, Jones, Ellerbe, etc. to fill in eventually for the older guys?

Bottom line: Pees' scheme is horrible. It's outdated, it's unoriginal, it's full of holes (literally), and obviously hasn't been working. To keep him here under the excuse of injuries is just ridiculous.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:


We started out terribad, then got somewhat decent, and now we are going quickly back down to being terrible again.


I don't think one bad game means the team is quickly going back down to being terrible again.

Prior to this Pittsburgh game, the defense was showing improvements each week, in almost every statistic you could name. And honestly I think a lot of the drop off in performance, from everyone, was due to complacency. The media telling them all week that 'you've won this game already. The Steelers are too banged up in every phase of the game', and I think that got into the heads of too many players, resulting in what we saw.

Add to that additional injuries to Suggs and Ellerbe, the latter of whom has been a stand out player since the bye, and there are reasons for the poor performance beyond Pees.

I saw enough in the way the defense played in the four games prior to this to say that Pees would be deserving of a second year if the defense keeps to that standard for the remainder of the season.

Cam though, Cam has had every chance any coach should ever be given, and then some. He's been on the way out at the end of each of the last three seasons, it seems, and has somehow managed to weather the storm. I don't think he'll be able to do it again this time unless the Ravens somehow win the Super Bowl.

Because the talk before the season started was all about improved offense. The pieces there, with the receivers and the tight ends and the running backs, and Flacco looking better than ever in practice and training camp. Yet the inconsistencies and baffling play calling remain. There is one man who has to take the blame for that, and in my mind, he's completely out of excuses.

If he goes, as he should, then I'd favour any OC coming in who is prepared to check his own ego at the door and build a system that fits the personnel on the team best. That isn't going to be Air Coryell, I don't think. It needs to be more flexible, to incorporate more short, quick routes and a more creative running game.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Pees can finish the year strong, I'm fine with him coming back. If he doesn't, there's no reason to keep him around either.

As for Cam, bye.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
We started out terribad, then got somewhat decent, and now we are going quickly back down to being terrible again.


Quickly back to bad after 1 game? Sorry, but I don't quite buy that. We're still improved from day 1.

Quote:
It's not the injuries that I'm even worried about, it's the general scheme. There are pieces for him to work with and to be able to be creative with, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SUCH GREAT DEPTH according to all of you, but now that we have injuries you are like "Well, we had injuries and blah blah blah", but isn't that the reason we drafted guys like Kruger, Upshaw, Jones, Ellerbe, etc. to fill in eventually for the older guys?


Some to eventually fill in, others as quality depth. That doesn't mean that there isn't a drop off from the veterans to the younger guys -- it just means there's less of a dropoff.

Quote:
Bottom line: Pees' scheme is horrible. It's outdated, it's unoriginal, it's full of holes (literally), and obviously hasn't been working. To keep him here under the excuse of injuries is just ridiculous.


I disagree that it's "horrible", but I'm certainly not a fan of the style -- I like aggressive attacking defenses rather than methodical, bend but don't break types, but that's just preference.

Outdated? I find that hard to believe. What's outdated about it really?

"Hasn't been working", again, when put into context, is in a middle ground -- we've gone backwards from years past, but some of that is attributed to turnover in the roster, some is due to injuries, some is due to adjustment, and some is due to his scheme. To act like the turnover and injuries don't at least play some part is being closed minded. We've definitely improved since the beginning of the season even despite losing 3 additional guys and only getting back 1. That said, again, I still don't like Pees but I don't see any way he's fired after 1 season under those circumstances.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Well considering our defense is one of the worst in the league right now and our offense is middle-of-the-road at best, it seems to me like 2 coordinator changes can't really hurt us that bad.

But even with that said, I'll grant you both that point. But after this year, if we don't get it done I can't see Cam Cameron coming back. Idk why Pees would be back either but Cam should FOR SURE be gone.


For the last time, it's not.
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draftguru1234


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not breaking news to anyone I'm sure, but looks like Turner will be fired at the end of the season.

Like I said before, I wouldn't exactly be thrilled with him being hired as the next OC, but if thats the only way to get rid of Cam, I'll take it. Beggars can't be choosers after all.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) There have been plenty of other coordinator changes during the lockout and some of them worked out quite nicely.


But not TWO coordinator changes for a SB contender, which is what we would have went through. We went through a DC change. Some teams went with two new coordinators, but they weren't very much in the SB picture like we were.


Well considering our defense is one of the worst in the league right now and our offense is middle-of-the-road at best, it seems to me like 2 coordinator changes can't really hurt us that bad.

But even with that said, I'll grant you both that point. But after this year, if we don't get it done I can't see Cam Cameron coming back. Idk why Pees would be back either but Cam should FOR SURE be gone.


For the last time, it's not.


http://www.nfl.com/teams/baltimoreravens/profile?team=BAL

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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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