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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
I asked Jeff Dickerson and he reiterated what we are talking about that if for some reason, however unlikely at this point, the Bears don't make the playoffs that Lovie will be fired.

If we miss the playoffs this season, again not likely, we will have made the playoffs 1 time in 6 years and that gets any coach fired.
It is amazing how willing people are here to accept such a crappy record. I can tell you season ticket holders are NOT. This is the Chicago Bears for crying out loud not the Chicago Cubs.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
Pack4life7 wrote:
Oh how quickly things change.

Lovie isn't going anywhere and niether is the Cover 2. Both are far from the problem.


Agreed...even the packers fan can see Lovie & the "Cover 2" isn't the problem lol.
Hilarious stuff. If I was a Packer fan I would be praising Smith to the skies and praying that he stays. They OWN him.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Pack4life7 wrote:
Oh how quickly things change.

Lovie isn't going anywhere and niether is the Cover 2. Both are far from the problem.


Agreed...even the packers fan can see Lovie & the "Cover 2" isn't the problem lol.


It might not be the problem but if they don't make the playoffs then surely it's entirely possible Lovie is canned and a brand new coaching staff is brought in next season. Whether or not you see it this way, I think the selection of Shea McClellin last year was an indication that Emery is willing to keep his options open. There were better suited players for the Bears 4-3 cover-2 that he could have selected over McClellin IMO.


Yeah but the core of this D is Cover 2 through and through...you start trying to change this D into a 3-4 and you can forget the playoffs for a couple of years.
What is new about that?
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Pack4life7 wrote:
Oh how quickly things change.

Lovie isn't going anywhere and niether is the Cover 2. Both are far from the problem.


Agreed...even the packers fan can see Lovie & the "Cover 2" isn't the problem lol.


It might not be the problem but if they don't make the playoffs then surely it's entirely possible Lovie is canned and a brand new coaching staff is brought in next season. Whether or not you see it this way, I think the selection of Shea McClellin last year was an indication that Emery is willing to keep his options open. There were better suited players for the Bears 4-3 cover-2 that he could have selected over McClellin IMO.


Yeah but the core of this D is Cover 2 through and through...you start trying to change this D into a 3-4 and you can forget the playoffs for a couple of years.


We have been in the playoffs 1/5 years right now, so lets not act like we are ending a dynasty.
A dynasty of Mediocrity perhaps.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: If we are going to change defensive schemes then... Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
...this coming offseason is the time to do so.

To be clear, I'm not driving the "Fire Lovie" bus nor am I even sure if I want to be on it. But this is the offseason that makes the most sense if it's going to happen.

Think about it. Urlacher is up after this year and may retire. At minimum we need to add a long term replacement now, and unless the new guy is a Urlacher-like athletic freak the player will need to be a fit to the scheme meaning adding a guy to fit for Lovie in 2013 and then potentially changing schemes in 2014 may mean the relative waste of a high draft pick. Melton is a UFA after the season, and if he isn't a fit for a new scheme (he's ideal as a 3-technique but not sure where he fits in other schemes) then he'd be a very expensive misfit after getting extended. This year's #1 pick (the first of this front office's regime) is a better fit as a pass rushing OLB than a cover 2 DE. Our other young starters (Paea, Conte & Wright, and to a lesser extent Wootton) would all fit in multiple schemes, and the aging vets under contract (Peppers, Briggs and Tillman) would all transition to other schemes adequately.

As much as it is a pain that basically half of our defense is out of contract either this or next year it would be advantageous if a scheme change were to happen at the end of this season. We would certainly have less low-cost flexibility for at least the next few offseasons after this coming one to implement a new scheme.

Again, I'm not pushing Lovie out the door and still expect us to win 2 or 3 of our final 4 games (should beat MIN, AZ and DET in my opinion and finish 11-5). Just something to think about.
We SHOULD have beaten Seattle and didn't so winning another two becomes doubtful given the schedule. It will be extremely hard to beat Detroit; they can score points. I see no chance of beating GB. Or evenMinn if they learned from the first game and I suspect they have.

BTAIM this is Smith's defense, if it goes he goes, if he stays it stays. I am not sure that we play a T2 that much anyway and don't see a scheme change coming without a whole new operation coming in.

I always have figured December would tell the tale as to whether Smith stays and it ain't looking good for him. Not only is our schedule brutal but it follows a month of shambles and we do not play well in December in general.

I agree that the Cover 2 will stay as long as Smith does but I certainly don't see the rest of our schedule as some unclimbable mountain. Minnesota is too one dimensional without Harvin to do anything on offense. I suspect Green Bay will beat us but they aren't unbeatable by any stretch. Arizona hasn't won since September. Detroit is already as good as eliminated from the postseason and is now down their next 3 receivers behind Calvin. Even looking pessimistic ally I see 2 wins there.
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ak06max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
topwop1 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
Pack4life7 wrote:
Oh how quickly things change.

Lovie isn't going anywhere and niether is the Cover 2. Both are far from the problem.


Agreed...even the packers fan can see Lovie & the "Cover 2" isn't the problem lol.


It might not be the problem but if they don't make the playoffs then surely it's entirely possible Lovie is canned and a brand new coaching staff is brought in next season. Whether or not you see it this way, I think the selection of Shea McClellin last year was an indication that Emery is willing to keep his options open. There were better suited players for the Bears 4-3 cover-2 that he could have selected over McClellin IMO.


Yeah but the core of this D is Cover 2 through and through...you start trying to change this D into a 3-4 and you can forget the playoffs for a couple of years.


We have been in the playoffs 1/5 years right now, so lets not act like we are ending a dynasty.



LMAO exactly. Everyone is reacting like we have 4 rings from this D. If it changes so be it. It may be for the better
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DaMike


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our defense isn't the reason we haven't been as successful as we could have been. It's the reason we've had the success we've had.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: If we are going to change defensive schemes then... Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
...this coming offseason is the time to do so.

To be clear, I'm not driving the "Fire Lovie" bus nor am I even sure if I want to be on it. But this is the offseason that makes the most sense if it's going to happen.

Think about it. Urlacher is up after this year and may retire. At minimum we need to add a long term replacement now, and unless the new guy is a Urlacher-like athletic freak the player will need to be a fit to the scheme meaning adding a guy to fit for Lovie in 2013 and then potentially changing schemes in 2014 may mean the relative waste of a high draft pick. Melton is a UFA after the season, and if he isn't a fit for a new scheme (he's ideal as a 3-technique but not sure where he fits in other schemes) then he'd be a very expensive misfit after getting extended. This year's #1 pick (the first of this front office's regime) is a better fit as a pass rushing OLB than a cover 2 DE. Our other young starters (Paea, Conte & Wright, and to a lesser extent Wootton) would all fit in multiple schemes, and the aging vets under contract (Peppers, Briggs and Tillman) would all transition to other schemes adequately.

As much as it is a pain that basically half of our defense is out of contract either this or next year it would be advantageous if a scheme change were to happen at the end of this season. We would certainly have less low-cost flexibility for at least the next few offseasons after this coming one to implement a new scheme.

Again, I'm not pushing Lovie out the door and still expect us to win 2 or 3 of our final 4 games (should beat MIN, AZ and DET in my opinion and finish 11-5). Just something to think about.
We SHOULD have beaten Seattle and didn't so winning another two becomes doubtful given the schedule. It will be extremely hard to beat Detroit; they can score points. I see no chance of beating GB. Or evenMinn if they learned from the first game and I suspect they have.

BTAIM this is Smith's defense, if it goes he goes, if he stays it stays. I am not sure that we play a T2 that much anyway and don't see a scheme change coming without a whole new operation coming in.

I always have figured December would tell the tale as to whether Smith stays and it ain't looking good for him. Not only is our schedule brutal but it follows a month of shambles and we do not play well in December in general.

I agree that the Cover 2 will stay as long as Smith does but I certainly don't see the rest of our schedule as some unclimbable mountain. Minnesota is too one dimensional without Harvin to do anything on offense. I suspect Green Bay will beat us but they aren't unbeatable by any stretch. Arizona hasn't won since September. Detroit is already as good as eliminated from the postseason and is now down their next 3 receivers behind Calvin. Even looking pessimistic ally I see 2 wins there.
Of course we are not speaking of an unclimbable mountain but we can see that even a gentle hill is challenging for this team. Two wins is tremendously optimistic for this team. The Lions are a very stupid team and that is the only reason the Bears might get a victory but they can score points. Smith's teams do not improve as the year goes on they get worse.

You can list all the reasons that we SHOULD win games but they don't convince me to throw out what I am watching unfold particularly since it is no surprise to me.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaMike wrote:
Our defense isn't the reason we haven't been as successful as we could have been. It's the reason we've had the success we've had.
You are correct but it has shot its wad now. That display against Seattle was pathetic.
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DaMike


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
DaMike wrote:
Our defense isn't the reason we haven't been as successful as we could have been. It's the reason we've had the success we've had.
You are correct but it has shot its wad now. That display against Seattle was pathetic.
The 49ers got ran over by the Vikings. The Ravens just lost to Charlie Batch. It happens. Our D is still very good as a whole. Any given Sunday.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: If we are going to change defensive schemes then... Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
...this coming offseason is the time to do so.

To be clear, I'm not driving the "Fire Lovie" bus nor am I even sure if I want to be on it. But this is the offseason that makes the most sense if it's going to happen.

Think about it. Urlacher is up after this year and may retire. At minimum we need to add a long term replacement now, and unless the new guy is a Urlacher-like athletic freak the player will need to be a fit to the scheme meaning adding a guy to fit for Lovie in 2013 and then potentially changing schemes in 2014 may mean the relative waste of a high draft pick. Melton is a UFA after the season, and if he isn't a fit for a new scheme (he's ideal as a 3-technique but not sure where he fits in other schemes) then he'd be a very expensive misfit after getting extended. This year's #1 pick (the first of this front office's regime) is a better fit as a pass rushing OLB than a cover 2 DE. Our other young starters (Paea, Conte & Wright, and to a lesser extent Wootton) would all fit in multiple schemes, and the aging vets under contract (Peppers, Briggs and Tillman) would all transition to other schemes adequately.

As much as it is a pain that basically half of our defense is out of contract either this or next year it would be advantageous if a scheme change were to happen at the end of this season. We would certainly have less low-cost flexibility for at least the next few offseasons after this coming one to implement a new scheme.

Again, I'm not pushing Lovie out the door and still expect us to win 2 or 3 of our final 4 games (should beat MIN, AZ and DET in my opinion and finish 11-5). Just something to think about.
We SHOULD have beaten Seattle and didn't so winning another two becomes doubtful given the schedule. It will be extremely hard to beat Detroit; they can score points. I see no chance of beating GB. Or evenMinn if they learned from the first game and I suspect they have.

BTAIM this is Smith's defense, if it goes he goes, if he stays it stays. I am not sure that we play a T2 that much anyway and don't see a scheme change coming without a whole new operation coming in.

I always have figured December would tell the tale as to whether Smith stays and it ain't looking good for him. Not only is our schedule brutal but it follows a month of shambles and we do not play well in December in general.

I agree that the Cover 2 will stay as long as Smith does but I certainly don't see the rest of our schedule as some unclimbable mountain. Minnesota is too one dimensional without Harvin to do anything on offense. I suspect Green Bay will beat us but they aren't unbeatable by any stretch. Arizona hasn't won since September. Detroit is already as good as eliminated from the postseason and is now down their next 3 receivers behind Calvin. Even looking pessimistic ally I see 2 wins there.
Of course we are not speaking of an unclimbable mountain but we can see that even a gentle hill is challenging for this team. Two wins is tremendously optimistic for this team. The Lions are a very stupid team and that is the only reason the Bears might get a victory but they can score points. Smith's teams do not improve as the year goes on they get worse.

You can list all the reasons that we SHOULD win games but they don't convince me to throw out what I am watching unfold particularly since it is no surprise to me.

We lost this past game when we should have won, but this team has also shown the ability to win games it has no business winning (Carolina). I certainly won't argue that they look great right now - they don't - but this same team is 14-3 over Cutler's last 17 starts dating back to last October with Lovie and all of his flaws as head coach, losing only to Green Bay, a Houston game which Jay left at the half and this past week. What Lovie's teams have shown, especially the past 3 seasons with Jay at QB, is the ability to stack wins against the league's average or worse teams. Minnesota, Arizona and Detroit all fit that bill. We SHOULD win at least 2 of those 3 games and if we do we will be in the tournament where anything can happen. If we don't win and miss the playoffs then I would expect Lovie to be let go, for large scale changes to take place and for the Bears to look far different starting in 2013.
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C


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
I think you guys are misinterpreting my post. I am not at all saying to fire the head coach right now or to change schemes right now. What I am saying is if they are going to change schemes that doing so this off-season will allow them to do that without having that in between misfit players season that accompanies a lot of scheme changes because the young players are compatible in multiple schemes and because Urlacher is on his way out and because scheme specific Melton is a free agent.

Firing the head coach is only going to help things if the new players match the new scheme as well as the current players match the current regime's scheme. Otherwise we're looking at change for the sake of change which is not a good thing IMO.


I think you're misinterpreting what others are saying. Lovie, and therefore the scheme, aren't going away. What people are saying is that there will be no scheme change now or in the off-season for as long as Lovie is the coach. And since you seem to agree that Lovie will be around, you can stop trying to convince yourself that there's even the possibility of an overhaul to the defensive scheme.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
I think you guys are misinterpreting my post. I am not at all saying to fire the head coach right now or to change schemes right now. What I am saying is if they are going to change schemes that doing so this off-season will allow them to do that without having that in between misfit players season that accompanies a lot of scheme changes because the young players are compatible in multiple schemes and because Urlacher is on his way out and because scheme specific Melton is a free agent.

Firing the head coach is only going to help things if the new players match the new scheme as well as the current players match the current regime's scheme. Otherwise we're looking at change for the sake of change which is not a good thing IMO.


I think you're misinterpreting what others are saying. Lovie, and therefore the scheme, aren't going away. What people are saying is that there will be no scheme change now or in the off-season for as long as Lovie is the coach. And since you seem to agree that Lovie will be around, you can stop trying to convince yourself that there's even the possibility of an overhaul to the defensive scheme.

I know this scheme will be here as long as Lovie is. But change will happen eventually as Lovie won't be here forever even if he is here for at least the next few years. I m saying that, from a personnel standpoint, if that change were to take place this year (meaning if Lovie were to be replaced after this year versus being replaced after any of the next few seasons) that the transition from players fitting his scheme to players fitting whatever scheme would replace his in the hypothetical would be most seamless this year because of where our current personnel sits age-wise and contract-wise.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaMike wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
DaMike wrote:
Our defense isn't the reason we haven't been as successful as we could have been. It's the reason we've had the success we've had.
You are correct but it has shot its wad now. That display against Seattle was pathetic.
The 49ers got ran over by the Vikings. The Ravens just lost to Charlie Batch. It happens. Our D is still very good as a whole. Any given Sunday.
Our defense had a fantastic first half of the year and that is the only reason we were 7-1. It has not even looked like the same defense since then and SF and Seattle showed it cannot be counted on.

It isn't impossible for the Bears to win but the Vikes are going to have to actively throw their chances away for us to do it.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: If we are going to change defensive schemes then... Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
...this coming offseason is the time to do so.

To be clear, I'm not driving the "Fire Lovie" bus nor am I even sure if I want to be on it. But this is the offseason that makes the most sense if it's going to happen.

Think about it. Urlacher is up after this year and may retire. At minimum we need to add a long term replacement now, and unless the new guy is a Urlacher-like athletic freak the player will need to be a fit to the scheme meaning adding a guy to fit for Lovie in 2013 and then potentially changing schemes in 2014 may mean the relative waste of a high draft pick. Melton is a UFA after the season, and if he isn't a fit for a new scheme (he's ideal as a 3-technique but not sure where he fits in other schemes) then he'd be a very expensive misfit after getting extended. This year's #1 pick (the first of this front office's regime) is a better fit as a pass rushing OLB than a cover 2 DE. Our other young starters (Paea, Conte & Wright, and to a lesser extent Wootton) would all fit in multiple schemes, and the aging vets under contract (Peppers, Briggs and Tillman) would all transition to other schemes adequately.

As much as it is a pain that basically half of our defense is out of contract either this or next year it would be advantageous if a scheme change were to happen at the end of this season. We would certainly have less low-cost flexibility for at least the next few offseasons after this coming one to implement a new scheme.

Again, I'm not pushing Lovie out the door and still expect us to win 2 or 3 of our final 4 games (should beat MIN, AZ and DET in my opinion and finish 11-5). Just something to think about.
We SHOULD have beaten Seattle and didn't so winning another two becomes doubtful given the schedule. It will be extremely hard to beat Detroit; they can score points. I see no chance of beating GB. Or evenMinn if they learned from the first game and I suspect they have.

BTAIM this is Smith's defense, if it goes he goes, if he stays it stays. I am not sure that we play a T2 that much anyway and don't see a scheme change coming without a whole new operation coming in.

I always have figured December would tell the tale as to whether Smith stays and it ain't looking good for him. Not only is our schedule brutal but it follows a month of shambles and we do not play well in December in general.

I agree that the Cover 2 will stay as long as Smith does but I certainly don't see the rest of our schedule as some unclimbable mountain. Minnesota is too one dimensional without Harvin to do anything on offense. I suspect Green Bay will beat us but they aren't unbeatable by any stretch. Arizona hasn't won since September. Detroit is already as good as eliminated from the postseason and is now down their next 3 receivers behind Calvin. Even looking pessimistic ally I see 2 wins there.
Of course we are not speaking of an unclimbable mountain but we can see that even a gentle hill is challenging for this team. Two wins is tremendously optimistic for this team. The Lions are a very stupid team and that is the only reason the Bears might get a victory but they can score points. Smith's teams do not improve as the year goes on they get worse.

You can list all the reasons that we SHOULD win games but they don't convince me to throw out what I am watching unfold particularly since it is no surprise to me.

We lost this past game when we should have won, but this team has also shown the ability to win games it has no business winning (Carolina). I certainly won't argue that they look great right now - they don't - but this same team is 14-3 over Cutler's last 17 starts dating back to last October with Lovie and all of his flaws as head coach, losing only to Green Bay, a Houston game which Jay left at the half and this past week. What Lovie's teams have shown, especially the past 3 seasons with Jay at QB, is the ability to stack wins against the league's average or worse teams. Minnesota, Arizona and Detroit all fit that bill. We SHOULD win at least 2 of those 3 games and if we do we will be in the tournament where anything can happen. If we don't win and miss the playoffs then I would expect Lovie to be let go, for large scale changes to take place and for the Bears to look far different starting in 2013.
I always look at things from a historical point of view and I, unfortunately, have seen this before - a team in collapse. Smith is going to have to coach his butt off now to even save his job for another year.

I hope all the talk of extension of his contract is dead in the water as it seems to be. But I really do not see Emery keeping him unless we make the playoffs and even just that may not be enough.

Emery hopefully is closely looking at the best coached teams' staffs and planning or even, the constantly speculated upon, Toub. We desperately need an offensive minded and/or imaginative coach.
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