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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
Sorry, 4th highest cap hit.

Brady- $21.8M
Eli- $20.85M
Big Ben- $20.595M
Stafford- $20.32M
Peyton- $20M

The thing that stands out on that list is that everyone of those players are perennial winners, but Stafford. And with a cap hit of $20.32M, he'd pretty much guarantee that it stays that way.


Not just perennial winners, superbowl winners.


How many were Superbowl winners before age 25? Small list.

Also how many of them had a good defense when they won?

Yea blame Stafford alright. How dare he allow 4 return tds in two games. How dare he let the WRs march up and down the field and score
This isn't a blame game. We're simply talking about his worth.

His play isn't worth $20M, and that type of a cap hit will cripple our team's ability to attempt to field a legit contender. He's not a big enough difference maker to compensate for that cap hit.


It is the blame game. His play is worth it. He gets no help anywhere hardly outside CJ and he has had way more drops then usual.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


Unfortunately you're right. He isn't worth 20 million.


I would agree if this were 5 years ago but that is going rate for him now. That is the value of a 24 year old QB prior to rookie salary cap.

That is like saying gas is not worth the price now. No doubt its a dumb price but it is the price you have to pay


What is he, the 4th highest paid QB in the league?


Based on when drafted at position drafted and his decent play that is the cost.

It is not his fault the rookie cap came later. Sucks for Det but it is what it is


It sucks for Detroit but that wasn't my point. My point was simply that based on his play he isn't worth 20 million.
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usedaschwartz


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


Unfortunately you're right. He isn't worth 20 million.


I would agree if this were 5 years ago but that is going rate for him now. That is the value of a 24 year old QB prior to rookie salary cap.

That is like saying gas is not worth the price now. No doubt its a dumb price but it is the price you have to pay


What is he, the 4th highest paid QB in the league?


Based on when drafted at position drafted and his decent play that is the cost.

It is not his fault the rookie cap came later. Sucks for Det but it is what it is


It sucks for Detroit but that wasn't my point. My point was simply that based on his play he isn't worth 20 million.


I agree with you and Stylish, but it's a loosing battle with this group. I don't understand why Stafford gets all this love. I guess people love mediocre play with big stats and no leadership skills. That's the big difference between Stafford and the others on the highest paid list. He is not a leader of men. No amount of money will make up for that. He reminds me of Joey in a lot of ways. A lot more talented, but same personality. Embarassed
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GeneralTso


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I don't see a "leader of men" in Eli, Ben, or Rodgers either.
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usedaschwartz


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralTso wrote:
Sorry, but I don't see a "leader of men" in Eli, Ben, or Rodgers either.


Shocked Rolling Eyes
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
Sorry, 4th highest cap hit.

Brady- $21.8M
Eli- $20.85M
Big Ben- $20.595M
Stafford- $20.32M
Peyton- $20M

The thing that stands out on that list is that everyone of those players are perennial winners, but Stafford. And with a cap hit of $20.32M, he'd pretty much guarantee that it stays that way.


Not just perennial winners, superbowl winners.


How many were Superbowl winners before age 25? Small list.

Also how many of them had a good defense when they won?

Yea blame Stafford alright. How dare he allow 4 return tds in two games. How dare he let the WRs march up and down the field and score
This isn't a blame game. We're simply talking about his worth.

His play isn't worth $20M, and that type of a cap hit will cripple our team's ability to attempt to field a legit contender. He's not a big enough difference maker to compensate for that cap hit.


It is the blame game. His play is worth it. He gets no help anywhere hardly outside CJ and he has had way more drops then usual.


I disagree with this. He gets very good pass blocking.

On the issue of drops it really has to be evaluated a bit more closely.

It isn't just one player dropping passes. All the receivers are dropping passes which in my mind would indicate either ball placement or velocity is a contributing factor.

I would feel differently if it was one player continuing to have drop issues, but its not.
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qball8001


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


You know I agree with you, but what could the Lions do? They need a good QB and haven't any other option but bite their lip and pay the money correct? I think Stafford deserves at least another year to show he can be paid like a top-5 QB. If he flounders next year and the Lions lose, or gets injured for the majority of the year again then I would consider severing ties.
That's actually not what I'm calling for. Notice I said Stafford needs to restructure first.

If it comes down to paying him the $20M, or forcing him out of town, of course the latter is not an option. But if/when we cross that road, just be prepared as a fan to endure yet another crappy season of football. Stafford obviously can't run our offense without 1st and 2nd round WR's and RB's, so we'll probably grab him another and ignore other desperate areas of our team.

We won't be able to re-sign our important F/A's, since their all UFA's. You all will get what you want in that case, a "franchise QB"; but you'll also get the SOL as well.


I do not think you get what restructuring means. It does not mean he takes a pay cut, it just moves money around from one year to another, and makes that money that he was taking as a pay cut for the season guaranteed in another year.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qball8001 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


You know I agree with you, but what could the Lions do? They need a good QB and haven't any other option but bite their lip and pay the money correct? I think Stafford deserves at least another year to show he can be paid like a top-5 QB. If he flounders next year and the Lions lose, or gets injured for the majority of the year again then I would consider severing ties.
That's actually not what I'm calling for. Notice I said Stafford needs to restructure first.

If it comes down to paying him the $20M, or forcing him out of town, of course the latter is not an option. But if/when we cross that road, just be prepared as a fan to endure yet another crappy season of football. Stafford obviously can't run our offense without 1st and 2nd round WR's and RB's, so we'll probably grab him another and ignore other desperate areas of our team.

We won't be able to re-sign our important F/A's, since their all UFA's. You all will get what you want in that case, a "franchise QB"; but you'll also get the SOL as well.


I do not think you get what restructuring means. It does not mean he takes a pay cut, it just moves money around from one year to another, and makes that money that he was taking as a pay cut for the season guaranteed in another year.
Thanks, in all my time on this forum that's never been explained to me Rolling Eyes
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25780
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qball8001 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


You know I agree with you, but what could the Lions do? They need a good QB and haven't any other option but bite their lip and pay the money correct? I think Stafford deserves at least another year to show he can be paid like a top-5 QB. If he flounders next year and the Lions lose, or gets injured for the majority of the year again then I would consider severing ties.
That's actually not what I'm calling for. Notice I said Stafford needs to restructure first.

If it comes down to paying him the $20M, or forcing him out of town, of course the latter is not an option. But if/when we cross that road, just be prepared as a fan to endure yet another crappy season of football. Stafford obviously can't run our offense without 1st and 2nd round WR's and RB's, so we'll probably grab him another and ignore other desperate areas of our team.

We won't be able to re-sign our important F/A's, since their all UFA's. You all will get what you want in that case, a "franchise QB"; but you'll also get the SOL as well.


I do not think you get what restructuring means. It does not mean he takes a pay cut, it just moves money around from one year to another, and makes that money that he was taking as a pay cut for the season guaranteed in another year.


I think he understands exactly what it means.

Restructuring can only be used so often before it cripples a team. The future guaranteed money also becomes more of a burden because even cutting players provides no relief.

A great deal of the Lions cap issues stem from restructuring in past years.

Now the only relief is attempting to get players resigned early and the only way that happens is if it puts even more guaranteed money in players pockets.

Restructuring which has been Lewand's operating methodology has kept Detroit in cap problems for years. The only real solution is to deal with it by avoiding manipulation tactics. That's the only long term solution.
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
qball8001 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


You know I agree with you, but what could the Lions do? They need a good QB and haven't any other option but bite their lip and pay the money correct? I think Stafford deserves at least another year to show he can be paid like a top-5 QB. If he flounders next year and the Lions lose, or gets injured for the majority of the year again then I would consider severing ties.
That's actually not what I'm calling for. Notice I said Stafford needs to restructure first.

If it comes down to paying him the $20M, or forcing him out of town, of course the latter is not an option. But if/when we cross that road, just be prepared as a fan to endure yet another crappy season of football. Stafford obviously can't run our offense without 1st and 2nd round WR's and RB's, so we'll probably grab him another and ignore other desperate areas of our team.

We won't be able to re-sign our important F/A's, since their all UFA's. You all will get what you want in that case, a "franchise QB"; but you'll also get the SOL as well.


I do not think you get what restructuring means. It does not mean he takes a pay cut, it just moves money around from one year to another, and makes that money that he was taking as a pay cut for the season guaranteed in another year.


I think he understands exactly what it means.

Restructuring can only be used so often before it cripples a team. The future guaranteed money also becomes more of a burden because even cutting players provides no relief.

A great deal of the Lions cap issues stem from restructuring in past years.

Now the only relief is attempting to get players resigned early and the only way that happens is if it puts even more guaranteed money in players pockets.

Restructuring which has been Lewand's operating methodology has kept Detroit in cap problems for years. The only real solution is to deal with it by avoiding manipulation tactics. That's the only long term solution.
I've argued against restructuring in the past, however I can see the rationale when we're talking about such a young player who the Lions have no intention of separating with anytime soon anyway.

If we extend Stafford after next season, then we could just roll the remainder of his money into the new contract. It's what was done with CJ, and it pushes the burden further down the line. And still, not all of CJs contract at that point is guaranteed, so the Lions sill have somewhat of an out; but regardless that's what it costs to keep a player of Calvin's stature in Detroit.
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DrRay11


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of the opinion we extend Stafford this offseason.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
qball8001 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
carlande wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
The cap is all jacked up next season. Stafford's hit is debilitating. He's not worth the money, and needs to restructure. He's just not a big enough difference maker.

Houston has to be top priority. Avril deserves a contract averaging $10M, of course not guaranteed though- he should have to earn those figures.

I don't look for the Lions to acquire any notable F/A's, we'll be lucky to keep our own. We don't have the luxury of tagging a bunch of players like we did last season. Better hope these guys believe in what Schwartz and Mayhew are doing, or else we could be left holding the short end of the stick for real.


Not big enough difference maker?

He won them 4 games all alone last year and was main reason they made playoffs.

Forgot he is supposed to play ST (2 win this year) defense another win this year.

That is 7 wins
He's gonna cost $20M, NO, he is not a big enough difference maker for that kind of money.

For what he costed us this season, great. $20M??? Nope.


You know I agree with you, but what could the Lions do? They need a good QB and haven't any other option but bite their lip and pay the money correct? I think Stafford deserves at least another year to show he can be paid like a top-5 QB. If he flounders next year and the Lions lose, or gets injured for the majority of the year again then I would consider severing ties.
That's actually not what I'm calling for. Notice I said Stafford needs to restructure first.

If it comes down to paying him the $20M, or forcing him out of town, of course the latter is not an option. But if/when we cross that road, just be prepared as a fan to endure yet another crappy season of football. Stafford obviously can't run our offense without 1st and 2nd round WR's and RB's, so we'll probably grab him another and ignore other desperate areas of our team.

We won't be able to re-sign our important F/A's, since their all UFA's. You all will get what you want in that case, a "franchise QB"; but you'll also get the SOL as well.


I do not think you get what restructuring means. It does not mean he takes a pay cut, it just moves money around from one year to another, and makes that money that he was taking as a pay cut for the season guaranteed in another year.


I think he understands exactly what it means.

Restructuring can only be used so often before it cripples a team. The future guaranteed money also becomes more of a burden because even cutting players provides no relief.

A great deal of the Lions cap issues stem from restructuring in past years.

Now the only relief is attempting to get players resigned early and the only way that happens is if it puts even more guaranteed money in players pockets.

Restructuring which has been Lewand's operating methodology has kept Detroit in cap problems for years. The only real solution is to deal with it by avoiding manipulation tactics. That's the only long term solution.
I've argued against restructuring in the past, however I can see the rationale when we're talking about such a young player who the Lions have no intention of separating with anytime soon anyway.

If we extend Stafford after next season, then we could just roll the remainder of his money into the new contract. It's what was done with CJ, and it pushes the burden further down the line. And still, not all of CJs contract at that point is guaranteed, so the Lions sill have somewhat of an out; but regardless that's what it costs to keep a player of Calvin's stature in Detroit.


It's manageable if, restructuring is kept to only a few players and the intent is to extend them early.

The Lions are going to have to continue down the path because they have painted themselves into a corner.

I just wish they would have bite the bullitt in the first couple of years and not relied so heavily on restructuring.
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flyguy1609


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we could be in trouble $$ wise...If we restructure Staffords contract he could take a *team friendly deal* you know take less up-front and back-load it. do like a 6 yr 80 mil deal + incentives... I know in baseball(im a Phillies fan) Cliff did back-loaded his deal, yr 1 was 11 mil so they could sign people and then it jumped to 20-21m in yr up to 25 depending on if the phils won the WS or he won ind. awards.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrRay11 wrote:
I'm of the opinion we extend Stafford this offseason.
Honestly, if I'm Stafford and we finish the season 4-12, why would I re-sign or restructure with the Lions?

If Detroit has another abysmal season next year, chances are Schwartz and his staff will be fired and the Lions will be starting all over. In that case, why would he have any faith in Mayhew to turn this thing around? It would be the best time in his career to run away from this mess while he still can take matters into his own hands.

He'd be smart to force the Lions to pay him his $20M+, and then force them to franchise him for another $20M in 2014. By then, the Lions will be in complete disaster evasion mode having to deal with Suh becoming UFA, and franchising Stafford for the 2nd consecutive season. We'll lose many of our best players to F/A, having to pay 45% of our cap to three players, and will probably be in full-blown rebuild mode.

Exit strategy executed flawlessly.
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DrRay11


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
DrRay11 wrote:
I'm of the opinion we extend Stafford this offseason.
Honestly, if I'm Stafford and we finish the season 4-12, why would I re-sign or restructure with the Lions?

If Detroit has another abysmal season next year, chances are Schwartz and his staff will be fired and the Lions will be starting all over. In that case, why would he have any faith in Mayhew to turn this thing around? It would be the best time in his career to run away from this mess while he still can take matters into his own hands.

He'd be smart to force the Lions to pay him his $20M+, and then force them to franchise him for another $20M in 2014. By then, the Lions will be in complete disaster evasion mode having to deal with Suh becoming UFA, and franchising Stafford for the 2nd consecutive season. We'll lose many of our best players to F/A, having to pay 45% of our cap to three players, and will probably be in full-blown rebuild mode.

Exit strategy executed flawlessly.


Money talks... Although his cap hit is over 20m in 2013, almost 50% of that - 8m, to be exact, is bonus proration. If the Lions offer him an extension, he could stand to make about $30-40m next year alone rather than $12m, which is fantastic financial security in case of injury.
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