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A case for REDBALL.... Long Post.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: A case for REDBALL.... Long Post. Reply with quote

****PLEASE LEAVE JERRY JONES/GM RELATED COMMENTS OUT OF THIS THREAD. THIS THREAD IS TO TALK ABOUT LOGICAL CHANGES THAT HAVE A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY OF HAPPENING. THERE IS ZERO PERCENT CHANCE OF JERRY NO LONGER BEING INVOLVED IN SOME CAPACITY, SO DO NOT DISCUSS IT IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE. I SAID PLEASE TWICE, SO YOU HAVE TO COMPLY.****

So - As many of you know, I am a supporter =>OF THE DIRECTION<= the franchise is going under Garrett. I emphasis those words to make a point. I do think Garrett as a coach and play caller has some significant deficiencies. Namely, the game day management of the offense and the perpetual problem with penalties (side note, 2003 was the last year we had under 6 penalties a game. We have been in the bottom 10 almost every year since then).

So Matt, why do you like Garrett? I think he has brought something that we have sorely lacked for far to long. He brought an identity.

Identity, who cares about that? All that matters are W/L.... Right? Sure - Wins are all that matters. But to build a franchise that can have continued success, you need to have an identity. For some teams that is "Smash Mouth"', "Defense" or "Passing Attack". Others it is simply "fundamental/Smart". But look at the teams that have continued success and they have a coach that embodies the identity of their team. Those coaches are in place for a significant tenure and mold a culture that breeds success.

Well then Mr. SmartyPants - What is our identity? RKG. Right kind of guy. Listen to Garrett talk about any roster move and you will hear this phrase. You will hear it more than once. Its our hope for the Dallas Cowboys, our future. Its a mentality. Its a type of player. Its a type of person. Its the culture that Garrett has started to implement.

Lots of hyperbole there, still didnt define RKG. Well, I can give you what MY definition would be. Not sure if it is Garretts. To me, it means a person with good character. A player who has passion for the game. A scrappy fighter who will give it 100%. Its people who will put in the work. An ode to the old school in that sense - football means more than money or fame. A team full of players that all have the heart of Jason Witten.

Thats cute, but I see an 8-8 team. Wheres the proof? I am impatient. I NEED A SUPERBOWL NOW!! You're right - we are an average team right now. There is no reasonable thought process that says otherwise. But that doesn't mean we are not improving. I posted this in another thread, but take a look at this:

Quote:
Redballs froster changes (Before - After - 3rd year):

Romo - Romo - Romo (RKG)
Barber (WKG) - Jones - Murray (RKG)
Austin - Austin - Austin(RKG)
Williams (WKG) - Bryant - Bryant (RKG)
Witten - Witten - Witten (RKG)
Free - Free - Smith ((RKG)
Kosier - Kosier - Livings
Gurode (WKG) - Costa - Costa
Davis (WKG) - Nagy/Holland - M.B.
Colombo (WKG) - Smith - Free

Spears - Coleman - Spears
Ratliff - Ratliff - Ratliff (RKG)
Olgoshansky (WKG)- Hatcher - Hatcher (RKG)
Spencer - Spencer - Spencer
James (WKG) - James - Carter (RKG)
Brooking - Lee - Lee (RKG)
Ware - Ware - Ware (RKG)
Newman (WKG) - Newman - Carr (RKG)
Jenkins - Jenkins - ClaiMaker (RKG)
Ball (WKG) - Elam - Church
Sensabaugh - Sensabaugh - Sensy



Alright, so we've transformed ~60% of the starters in 2 years. We are still AVERAGE, you said it yourself. Sure, I said it. I think we are average for a few key reasons:
1. We are young in a lot of places
2. Even with all the turnover, not all positions have been appropriately addressed.
3. We are injured... Very injured.


Injuries are an excuse. Besides, we drafted injury prone players, what can you expect? We should be able to overcome *some* injuries. But the truth is we are not talented enough to overcome multiple injuries at key positions. When Garrett took over, he had ~5 great players, ~5 good players, ~5 good enough guys and about ~35 guys who wouldn't make it on most NFL rosters. We know this because we have cut them - and most are buried on a depth chart or not on a team at all.

As for being injury prone, I don't buy into that for MOST NFL players. You want to say Glass Hammy Austin is injury prone? Okay, fine. But to say a guy who breaks a hand one year and then a toe the next year is injury prone is false (in my opinion). He is simply unlucky. Those are two very different injuries that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.


Ok, so what if I bought into your theory? Redball comes in, rebuilds the bulk of the team under our noses, all while giving us some entertaining competitive football to watch. When should we expect playoff success? Good question. Tough to answer. I think it would be fair and accurate to say that this offseason is highly critical to the future of Garrett. I do not think you put Garrett on the "Hot Seat" for all of next year. But I do think there needs to be some internal conversations with Garrett that 2013 needs to be a significantly more disciplined team. I think it should be made very aware to Garrett that the amount of boneheaded mistakes our team makes is beyond unacceptable. If it were me, I would let Garrett know that he be relieved of the offensive coordinator title. As a young Head Coach, he needs to surround himself with smart people who can help him right the ship.



TLDR version: Garrett has planted the seeds of our new identity. He deserves at least one more year to see the fruits of his labor.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause Good post, Matts and I agree with a lot of what you said.

Yes, this team still makes crucial mistakes. Yes, it is an average team. But Garrett is building something for the long-term, he is creating an identity and mindset that will result in success. Remember we are still shedding players from prior years with poor football IQs.

Like you, I also believe this off-season will be a crucial one for Garrett. We have seen in two years with him as the head coach, that this team will target the area most perceived to be a weakness from the previous year with most of their resources in free agency and the draft. This year, it would be hard to argue that our biggest weakness isn't in the trenches. Therefore, based off prior history, I believe it's logical to assume we will go OL and DL heavy in the off-season.

I also agree with Garrett giving up playcalling duties. The more the season goes on, the more I sincerely believe Norv Turner is going to be fired. If that happens, I would hope Garrett gets in contact with his former coordinator and recruits him to Dallas. For all that Norv lacks as a head coach, he is simply amazing at putting together an offensive gameplan and coordinating an offense. With a rebuilt line and the talent we have on this offense, I could just imagine the kind of results Norv could generate.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Matts

I don't see Garrett getting fired this offseason unless we go 0-4 and lose in blowouts the rest of the way. Jerry loves him, he's made a ton of mistakes but he's improving, and I think he's better than most of the options out there including Gruden/Holmgren. I'd rather let him keep working on what we have as far as culture/roster and improve as a game-day coach than start all over again.

If he hasn't taken us to the NFCC in the next 3 years, I'd be surprised.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure that RKG is an identity as much as it is a philosophy.. I mean Landry was a RKG type of coach. He simply didn't tolerate guys who were not the 'his kind of guys'. But at the same time, Landry had a system. A system that players executed flawlessly.. they didn't commit dozens of penalties game after game. They didn't shoot them selves in the foot or do STUPID things game after game... They were smart, hard workers or they were gone.

Not saying Garrett is not Landryesq at times but he is not full time yet and neither is this team.
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htfryar


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything that Matts and Des said. Garrett is building a team that will have sustained success. No, we aren't going to win the Super Bowl this year and probably not even next year. That's okay though. I don't have to have immediate results. I want our team to be built into an every year contender, not a flash in the pan, one year wonder.

I have confidence that if Jason Garrett gives up the OC duties and focuses solely on the HC position, he can be 1 of the top 3 HC's in team history. He is a smart, yet inexperienced coach. He is going to make mistakes, but given enough time, he will do more right than wrong.

I like the direction the roster is headed. Like Matts and Des said, each offseason under Garrett, the team has focused on fixing the part of the roster that was the biggest problem. I'm sure that will continue this next offseason with an overhaul of the o-line.

I have confidence that Jason Garrett is the right guy to lead the Dallas Cowboys, as long as he gives up the OC duties. If he does that, he has my complete and total support.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:
I am not sure that RKG is an identity as much as it is a philosophy.. I mean Landry was a RKG type of coach. He simply didn't tolerate guys who were not the 'his kind of guys'. But at the same time, Landry had a system. A system that players executed flawlessly.. they didn't commit dozens of penalties game after game. They didn't shoot them selves in the foot or do STUPID things game after game... They were smart, hard workers or they were gone.

Not saying Garrett is not Landryesq at times but he is not full time yet and neither is this team.



I agree - and that is actually the whole point of this. I know Landrys situation is different, but he went 13-38 in his first 4 years.. It wasnt until 6 that he had a winning record.. at year >10< he was 1-4 in the playoffs.


It took Landry 12 years to build the team/roster/culture that could win a superbowl. 12 YEARS!!!!!!!


Jimmy did it much faster... Of course with the caveat that the situations were vastly different. He did it in 4 years. But he also had the privilege of walking on to a team that had a HOF WR, would draft a HOF QB a couple weeks later and get a HOF RB the following year.


I post all that just to remind you - Garret is on year 2.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Landry started with ZIPPO, not even a draft.. just a bunch of expansion players that no other team wanted.. coupled with the lack of free agency, Landry had to BUILD from scratch.. plus Landry had a patient owner who inked him to a new 10 year deal after 5 losing seasons.. Jerry aint doing that for Garrett, nor would any owner in today's NFL.

My point is/was that the 'RIGHT KIND OF GUY' is a great philosophy but not really an identity.. Garrett needs a system.. and perhaps he has one that will eventually take hold but today's Cowboys identity is underachieving, mistake ridden, punching bags, with an occasional flare for the dramatic..


Last edited by mco65 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DKDALfan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Matts! Applause Usually a long post tend to get borring and you skip most of it, but you made yours very interesting..

I do agree with pretty much everything you say, and I like Garrett (offcourse accept his limitations at calling plays).

One thing bothers me, how can you call Marion Barber the wrong kind of guy and Dez the right?
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DKDALfan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:
Well, Landry started with ZIPPO, not even a draft.. just a bunch of expansion players that no other team wanted.. coupled with the lack of free agency, Landry had to BUILD from scratch.. plus Landry had a patient owner who inked him to a new 10 year deal after 5 losing seasons.. Jerry aint doing that for Garrett, nor would any owner in today's NFL.

My point is/was that the 'RIGHT KIND OF GUY' is a great philosophy but not really an identity.. Garrett needs a system.. and perhaps he has one that will eventually take hold but today's Cowboys identity is underachieving, mistake ridden, punching bags, with an occasional flar for the dramatic..


really? I feel that our identity this season is a mental tough team that doesnt give up. I don't see us underachieving (accept from Free), we clearly have some lack of good players on D line, safety and O line. Another identity I think we have this season is injury prone, for obvious reasons. Also, I think that we have an identity of being slow starters, and as you say, having a some love for making a bit of drama.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DKDALfan wrote:

One thing bothers me, how can you call Marion Barber the wrong kind of guy and Dez the right?


Great question. I got lazy when I started adding those titles and didnt put for the effort I should have. It was the last thing I did, and I had been writing that off and on all morning.


I should have used more defined criteria for what I considered WKG. For some, I did it because of contract VS Production/contribution/leadership/etc. Others it was Age/ability.

Barber was a player who head a great passion and should probably not be listed as WKG. I guess the main reason I put him as WKG is that he is not the type of RB that you can make a cornerstone of your offense. We tried to do that and it failed miserably.


As for Dez, I think my thoughts on him have been well played out. I feel like most of his issues are not reflective of character - but more so maturity. I think there is ample evidence that he is passionate about football, he is willing to do what it takes to succeed, and that he can become an emotional leader for our club. I still remember the 40 point arse whooping against the Packers.. He was the only guy who played 4 qrts with passion. He was trying to motivate and lead.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, they don't give up that's for sure. I give that credit to Garrett. He keeps them in the game and playing hard.. he is also keeps his cool while I am busy throwing stuff at the TV usually in the first half!
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:
Well, Landry started with ZIPPO, not even a draft.. just a bunch of expansion players that no other team wanted.. coupled with the lack of free agency, Landry had to BUILD from scratch.. plus Landry had a patient owner who inked him to a new 10 year deal after 5 losing seasons.. Jerry aint doing that for Garrett, nor would any owner in today's NFL.

My point is/was that the 'RIGHT KIND OF GUY' is a great philosophy but not really an identity.. Garrett needs a system.. and perhaps he has one that will eventually take hold but today's Cowboys identity is underachieving, mistake ridden, punching bags, with an occasional flare for the dramatic..


Yeah, I made sure to point out a couple times that the Landry situation is much different.

I disagree with your second point. I think you see the RKG shine through when we are down 28-3 at the half. Prima donnas pack it in at that point. RKGs keep fighting. Same thing against the Giants in October.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt,
I agree that Garrett has some of the 'right kind of guys' on this team... and hopefully will get more but that's not an identity IMO.. They still have to find an identity..
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DKDALfan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
DKDALfan wrote:

One thing bothers me, how can you call Marion Barber the wrong kind of guy and Dez the right?


Great question. I got lazy when I started adding those titles and didnt put for the effort I should have. It was the last thing I did, and I had been writing that off and on all morning.


I should have used more defined criteria for what I considered WKG. For some, I did it because of contract VS Production/contribution/leadership/etc. Others it was Age/ability.

Barber was a player who head a great passion and should probably not be listed as WKG. I guess the main reason I put him as WKG is that he is not the type of RB that you can make a cornerstone of your offense. We tried to do that and it failed miserably.


As for Dez, I think my thoughts on him have been well played out. I feel like most of his issues are not reflective of character - but more so maturity. I think there is ample evidence that he is passionate about football, he is willing to do what it takes to succeed, and that he can become an emotional leader for our club. I still remember the 40 point arse whooping against the Packers.. He was the only guy who played 4 qrts with passion. He was trying to motivate and lead.


yeah okay I thought you putted Barber as WKG because of his minor off the field issues, which in my opinion would be wrong as long as Dez was listed as RKG. But fair enough that in your eyes they needs to be able to have a long carreer to be a RKG, I just have another way to look at it.

In my eyes, they both are the RKG. They both have a huge passion for the game, don't mind taking some hits if it mean that it can help their team to a 1st down or a big play. They both did what it took to improve and are willing to do what it takes to be the best they can be. Big fan of both of them, and they both have that kind of attitude that I would say is the right attitude to have on a team. None of them have had major problems with the law, nothing that have gived them major implications when it comes to playing football. a lot of the Dez stuff was offcourse as you say, because he has been immature. But no doubt that he is showing that he does what he can to improve on that area as well.
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ware94


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DKDALfan wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
DKDALfan wrote:

One thing bothers me, how can you call Marion Barber the wrong kind of guy and Dez the right?


Great question. I got lazy when I started adding those titles and didnt put for the effort I should have. It was the last thing I did, and I had been writing that off and on all morning.


I should have used more defined criteria for what I considered WKG. For some, I did it because of contract VS Production/contribution/leadership/etc. Others it was Age/ability.

Barber was a player who head a great passion and should probably not be listed as WKG. I guess the main reason I put him as WKG is that he is not the type of RB that you can make a cornerstone of your offense. We tried to do that and it failed miserably.


As for Dez, I think my thoughts on him have been well played out. I feel like most of his issues are not reflective of character - but more so maturity. I think there is ample evidence that he is passionate about football, he is willing to do what it takes to succeed, and that he can become an emotional leader for our club. I still remember the 40 point arse whooping against the Packers.. He was the only guy who played 4 qrts with passion. He was trying to motivate and lead.


yeah okay I thought you putted Barber as WKG because of his minor off the field issues, which in my opinion would be wrong as long as Dez was listed as RKG. But fair enough that in your eyes they needs to be able to have a long carreer to be a RKG, I just have another way to look at it.

In my eyes, they both are the RKG. They both have a huge passion for the game, don't mind taking some hits if it mean that it can help their team to a 1st down or a big play. They both did what it took to improve and are willing to do what it takes to be the best they can be. Big fan of both of them, and they both have that kind of attitude that I would say is the right attitude to have on a team. None of them have had major problems with the law, nothing that have gived them major implications when it comes to playing football. a lot of the Dez stuff was offcourse as you say, because he has been immature. But no doubt that he is showing that he does what he can to improve on that area as well.


I'm not disputing you, but what were Barber's off field issues?
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