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AnAngryAmerican
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 17524
Location: Loveland, CO
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 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Russell2Bailey wrote: | | Steve Tasker is more deserving than Terrell Davis? I've heard it all. |
Steve Tasker was the greatest special teams player of all time. He changed games, teams had to account for him, he was game-planned against. And he was a special teamer!!!
Don't get me wrong I love TD and TD played at a Hall of Fame level during his career, but he didn't have a Hall of Fame career.
In making the list of players who would get my vote (and as a professional sportswriter I could very well get a HOF vote one day...), the two I struggled the most with were Morton Anderson and Steve Tasker, not Terrell Davis. And, as a Broncos fan who still has the Terrell Davis jersey I got my sophomore year of high school, I feel terrible saying that as he's one of my favorite athletes of all time. But he does not, ugh I hate saying this, deserve a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4434
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| AnAngryAmerican wrote: | | Russell2Bailey wrote: | | Steve Tasker is more deserving than Terrell Davis? I've heard it all. |
Steve Tasker was the greatest special teams player of all time. He changed games, teams had to account for him, he was game-planned against. And he was a special teamer!!!
Don't get me wrong I love TD and TD played at a Hall of Fame level during his career, but he didn't have a Hall of Fame career.
In making the list of players who would get my vote (and as a professional sportswriter I could very well get a HOF vote one day...), the two I struggled the most with were Morton Anderson and Steve Tasker, not Terrell Davis. And, as a Broncos fan who still has the Terrell Davis jersey I got my sophomore year of high school, I feel terrible saying that as he's one of my favorite athletes of all time. But he does not, ugh I hate saying this, deserve a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. |
We'd disagree, but it depends mostly on what HOF means to an individual. To me it means someone extremely special, best of an era, top of the class .... Thats why I'll always disagree with the selection of someone like Curtis martin and the rejection of TD. Martin was an average back for a very long time. TD was the best back in the NFL for a very short time.
That criteria just places more value on luck (no significant injuries) and durability than I think it should. |
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AnAngryAmerican
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 17524
Location: Loveland, CO
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| AKRNA wrote: | | AnAngryAmerican wrote: | | Russell2Bailey wrote: | | Steve Tasker is more deserving than Terrell Davis? I've heard it all. |
Steve Tasker was the greatest special teams player of all time. He changed games, teams had to account for him, he was game-planned against. And he was a special teamer!!!
Don't get me wrong I love TD and TD played at a Hall of Fame level during his career, but he didn't have a Hall of Fame career.
In making the list of players who would get my vote (and as a professional sportswriter I could very well get a HOF vote one day...), the two I struggled the most with were Morton Anderson and Steve Tasker, not Terrell Davis. And, as a Broncos fan who still has the Terrell Davis jersey I got my sophomore year of high school, I feel terrible saying that as he's one of my favorite athletes of all time. But he does not, ugh I hate saying this, deserve a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. |
We'd disagree, but it depends mostly on what HOF means to an individual. To me it means someone extremely special, best of an era, top of the class .... Thats why I'll always disagree with the selection of someone like Curtis martin and the rejection of TD. Martin was an average back for a very long time. TD was the best back in the NFL for a very short time.
That criteria just places more value on luck (no significant injuries) and durability than I think it should. |
Curtis Martin was far from an "average" back. The man had ten-straight 1000+ yard seasons. He has 484 career receptions (average of 44/season) and 100 career touchdowns. Luck had nothing to do with his career, he was a durable RB who produced year-in and year-out and was the focal-point of his teams' offense.
Could TD have produced at the same, if not greater, level had he played 11 seasons as Martin did? Sure. But he didn't.
TD, again a player I adore and one who will always have a special play in my football heart, played at a Hall of Fame level for three seasons ('96-'98) but Curtis Martin (among many others) had a Hall of Fame career.
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7DnBrnc53
Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 1303
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| AnAngryAmerican wrote: | | Russell2Bailey wrote: | | Steve Tasker is more deserving than Terrell Davis? I've heard it all. |
Steve Tasker was the greatest special teams player of all time. He changed games, teams had to account for him, he was game-planned against. And he was a special teamer!!!
Don't get me wrong I love TD and TD played at a Hall of Fame level during his career, but he didn't have a Hall of Fame career.
In making the list of players who would get my vote (and as a professional sportswriter I could very well get a HOF vote one day...), the two I struggled the most with were Morton Anderson and Steve Tasker, not Terrell Davis. And, as a Broncos fan who still has the Terrell Davis jersey I got my sophomore year of high school, I feel terrible saying that as he's one of my favorite athletes of all time. But he does not, ugh I hate saying this, deserve a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. |
AAA, if Gale Sayers (who only had about 4,950 career rushing yards from 65-71) and Earl Campbell (who had around 9,400 career yards from 1978-85) weren't in, I would agree. However, since they are in, TD has a case. He had around 7,600 career rushing yards, which is more than Sayers, and he won a SB MVP and had 2,000 in one year. |
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germ-x
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 7167
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: |
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The accolades part of the Hall of Fame process irritates me more than any other, especially playoff accolades. There is just so much more that goes into it than individual performance.
For me it should be about individual statistical performance and what scheme or how good the team around the player is/was shouldn't account for anything. When you start getting into all of that it becomes a slippery slope.
Terrell Davis came into a great situation in Denver, but i don't think that should sway voters into not voting for him. Nor do i think voters should vote for him because he has 2 Super Bowls and an MVP.
I am going to use Chris Johnson again because statistically he is nearly identical to Davis. If Chris Johnson were to retire today the fact that Terrell Davis has an MVP and Johnson doesn't shouldn't be the reason Davis were to go to the Hall of Fame over Johnson. Davis won his MVP in his 2000 yard rushing season, Johnson rushed for over 2000 yards and the MVP went to Peyton Manning.
I know i didn't lay that out great, but hopefully people get my drift. |
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jsthomp2007
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 6252
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Terrell Davis, without a doubt, should be a HOFer. Not question. What he did, other RB's in the HOF didn't do throughout their longer, more lengthy careers. How many of the RB's in the HOF have two Super Bowl rings, Super Bowl MVP, League MVP, over 2,000 yards rushing in one season, and was the best player during his time in the NFL.
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AKRNA
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4434
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| germ-x wrote: | The accolades part of the Hall of Fame process irritates me more than any other, especially playoff accolades. There is just so much more that goes into it than individual performance.
For me it should be about individual statistical performance and what scheme or how good the team around the player is/was shouldn't account for anything. When you start getting into all of that it becomes a slippery slope.
Terrell Davis came into a great situation in Denver, but i don't think that should sway voters into not voting for him. Nor do i think voters should vote for him because he has 2 Super Bowls and an MVP.
I am going to use Chris Johnson again because statistically he is nearly identical to Davis. If Chris Johnson were to retire today the fact that Terrell Davis has an MVP and Johnson doesn't shouldn't be the reason Davis were to go to the Hall of Fame over Johnson. Davis won his MVP in his 2000 yard rushing season, Johnson rushed for over 2000 yards and the MVP went to Peyton Manning.
I know i didn't lay that out great, but hopefully people get my drift. |
With that statement germ, all you've proven is you flunked "Statistical Analysis 101". If you look at the 1st 4 year stats, you'll realize that Johnson is a product od 1 great year and 3 mediocre. His 2000 yard season was an anomaly with his next two best being 1364 1nd 1228. Also, after his 2000 yaed season, his production dropped rapidly. Once he was a target it was all over. YPG over the 4 years were 82, 125, 85, 65. One good year.
TD on the other hand started his career at 80 ypg, then increased it by about 20% every year to 96, 117 and finally 125.
His 3 best seasons in yards gained were 1538, 1750 and 2008. Johnsons are shown above.
In that you want to use statistics as your criteria, fine. Just use them properly. Under no analysis are TD and Johnson "nearly identical". |
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jsthomp2007
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 6252
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AKRNA wrote: | | germ-x wrote: | The accolades part of the Hall of Fame process irritates me more than any other, especially playoff accolades. There is just so much more that goes into it than individual performance.
For me it should be about individual statistical performance and what scheme or how good the team around the player is/was shouldn't account for anything. When you start getting into all of that it becomes a slippery slope.
Terrell Davis came into a great situation in Denver, but i don't think that should sway voters into not voting for him. Nor do i think voters should vote for him because he has 2 Super Bowls and an MVP.
I am going to use Chris Johnson again because statistically he is nearly identical to Davis. If Chris Johnson were to retire today the fact that Terrell Davis has an MVP and Johnson doesn't shouldn't be the reason Davis were to go to the Hall of Fame over Johnson. Davis won his MVP in his 2000 yard rushing season, Johnson rushed for over 2000 yards and the MVP went to Peyton Manning.
I know i didn't lay that out great, but hopefully people get my drift. |
With that statement germ, all you've proven is you flunked "Statistical Analysis 101". If you look at the 1st 4 year stats, you'll realize that Johnson is a product od 1 great year and 3 mediocre. His 2000 yard season was an anomaly with his next two best being 1364 1nd 1228. Also, after his 2000 yaed season, his production dropped rapidly. Once he was a target it was all over. YPG over the 4 years were 82, 125, 85, 65. One good year.
TD on the other hand started his career at 80 ypg, then increased it by about 20% every year to 96, 117 and finally 125.
His 3 best seasons in yards gained were 1538, 1750 and 2008. Johnsons are shown above.
In that you want to use statistics as your criteria, fine. Just use them properly. Under no analysis are TD and Johnson "nearly identical". |
And let's not get into TD's playoff stats. He is in the top 3-5 in nearly every RB stat in the book.
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germ-x
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 7167
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| AKRNA wrote: | | germ-x wrote: | The accolades part of the Hall of Fame process irritates me more than any other, especially playoff accolades. There is just so much more that goes into it than individual performance.
For me it should be about individual statistical performance and what scheme or how good the team around the player is/was shouldn't account for anything. When you start getting into all of that it becomes a slippery slope.
Terrell Davis came into a great situation in Denver, but i don't think that should sway voters into not voting for him. Nor do i think voters should vote for him because he has 2 Super Bowls and an MVP.
I am going to use Chris Johnson again because statistically he is nearly identical to Davis. If Chris Johnson were to retire today the fact that Terrell Davis has an MVP and Johnson doesn't shouldn't be the reason Davis were to go to the Hall of Fame over Johnson. Davis won his MVP in his 2000 yard rushing season, Johnson rushed for over 2000 yards and the MVP went to Peyton Manning.
I know i didn't lay that out great, but hopefully people get my drift. |
With that statement germ, all you've proven is you flunked "Statistical Analysis 101". If you look at the 1st 4 year stats, you'll realize that Johnson is a product od 1 great year and 3 mediocre. His 2000 yard season was an anomaly with his next two best being 1364 1nd 1228. Also, after his 2000 yaed season, his production dropped rapidly. Once he was a target it was all over. YPG over the 4 years were 82, 125, 85, 65. One good year.
TD on the other hand started his career at 80 ypg, then increased it by about 20% every year to 96, 117 and finally 125.
His 3 best seasons in yards gained were 1538, 1750 and 2008. Johnsons are shown above.
In that you want to use statistics as your criteria, fine. Just use them properly. Under no analysis are TD and Johnson "nearly identical". |
I did use them properly because i accounted for the number of carries.
I figured it all up yesterday, but when you factor in carries+yards/attempt Terrell Davis IIRC had exactly 30 more rushing yards than Johnson through their first 4 seasons. To me that is "nearly identical."
Basically, Davis/Johnson are producing at similar rates through their first 4 seasons and statistically that is a fact.
Now, i guess one could debate why Johnson has less carries, maybe he is inferior to Davis, i don't know. All i know is that what Terrell Davis did in his first 4 years has been pretty darn close to replicated by Chris Johnson (aside from touchdowns) and i don't think anyone here would say that if Chris Johnson retired today he should be in the Hall of Fame. |
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Zukhyubern
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 4386
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
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jsthomp2007
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 6252
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| germ-x wrote: | | AKRNA wrote: | | germ-x wrote: | The accolades part of the Hall of Fame process irritates me more than any other, especially playoff accolades. There is just so much more that goes into it than individual performance.
For me it should be about individual statistical performance and what scheme or how good the team around the player is/was shouldn't account for anything. When you start getting into all of that it becomes a slippery slope.
Terrell Davis came into a great situation in Denver, but i don't think that should sway voters into not voting for him. Nor do i think voters should vote for him because he has 2 Super Bowls and an MVP.
I am going to use Chris Johnson again because statistically he is nearly identical to Davis. If Chris Johnson were to retire today the fact that Terrell Davis has an MVP and Johnson doesn't shouldn't be the reason Davis were to go to the Hall of Fame over Johnson. Davis won his MVP in his 2000 yard rushing season, Johnson rushed for over 2000 yards and the MVP went to Peyton Manning.
I know i didn't lay that out great, but hopefully people get my drift. |
With that statement germ, all you've proven is you flunked "Statistical Analysis 101". If you look at the 1st 4 year stats, you'll realize that Johnson is a product od 1 great year and 3 mediocre. His 2000 yard season was an anomaly with his next two best being 1364 1nd 1228. Also, after his 2000 yaed season, his production dropped rapidly. Once he was a target it was all over. YPG over the 4 years were 82, 125, 85, 65. One good year.
TD on the other hand started his career at 80 ypg, then increased it by about 20% every year to 96, 117 and finally 125.
His 3 best seasons in yards gained were 1538, 1750 and 2008. Johnsons are shown above.
In that you want to use statistics as your criteria, fine. Just use them properly. Under no analysis are TD and Johnson "nearly identical". |
I did use them properly because i accounted for the number of carries.
I figured it all up yesterday, but when you factor in carries+yards/attempt Terrell Davis IIRC had exactly 30 more rushing yards than Johnson through their first 4 seasons. To me that is "nearly identical."
Basically, Davis/Johnson are producing at similar rates through their first 4 seasons and statistically that is a fact.
Now, i guess one could debate why Johnson has less carries, maybe he is inferior to Davis, i don't know. All i know is that what Terrell Davis did in his first 4 years has been pretty darn close to replicated by Chris Johnson (aside from touchdowns) and i don't think anyone here would say that if Chris Johnson retired today he should be in the Hall of Fame. |
Chris Johnson hasn't directly contributed to the Titans winning two Super Bowls. TD did, he may have been the biggest factor for the two Championships. He was also the best running back, if not the best player at the time of those Championships. Plus, what TD did during the playoffs...stellar....TD's playoff and championship performances should put him into the hall of fame.
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4341
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:58 am Post subject: |
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The Hall of Fame is a joke and Terrell Davis even being talked about is just another example.
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Last edited by AntiSuperstar on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Russell2Bailey
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 12664
Location: Where I will, I'll roam.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| AntiSuperstar wrote: | | The Hall of Fame is a joke and Terrell Davis even being talked up about is just another example. |
Please tell me that your major part of reasoning is career length. Which is the only one that makes any sense and is arguable.
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champ+jay+al=SB
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 13807
Location: Beautiful Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't really watch TD....how much does the fact that Shanny churned out 1000 yard rushers hurt him?
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AntiSuperstar
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Russell2Bailey wrote: | | Please tell me that your major part of reasoning is career length. Which is the only one that makes any sense and is arguable. |
Career length, not to mention the fact that he literally had a dominant offensive line. He was an excellent player, you know, Jamal Charles is an excellent player right now with the Chiefs. You won't see me hyping him as a Hall of Famer player. And yeah I know some Broncos fans will be mad at that comparison.
It's frankly insulting to put Terrell Davis in the same class as guys like Emmit Smith or Barry Sanders. Those were the dominant backs of those days. Terrell Davis was a flash in the pan. But then again the HOF is mostly about statistical accomplishments anyway. Curtis Martin is in there and he was never anything more than a solid back. Maybe one day Jamal Lewis will be talked up as a HOF player, after all he had a 2,000 yard season as well. What a joke.
Put Tom Nalen in the hall.
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