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Jeebs


Joined: 18 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
steadypimpin wrote:
neezy007 wrote:
BBIB wrote:
I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place

And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.

Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way


It's not going to get a rest because people have been fighting for or against Smith for years now. It seems almost ingrained into many fans DNA. You have to have a fight about Alex Smith.
Yeah we'll fight until the season is over and he gets cut/traded.

The bolded is the truest thing ever. Smith was a huge bust in the eyes of many and Harbaugh resurrected his career.



What if he doesn't get cut or traded?


We should all worry at that point. That likely means Kaep hasn't panned out and we still won't have an answer at QB going forward. Alex won't be a backup for the 49ers.
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steadypimpin


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, this is Kaeps second round with the Rams. How do you guys think he does this time? Does the Rams defense bring the house every play like the first time?
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Ataal


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miami49er wrote:
Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/

I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:

Quote:
“Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.

“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin.


Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization.


I don't disagree with that. But, when you say, "no one should feel bad," it comes off as kind of...well...harsh. Don't you think? I was Alex's biggest critic before the 2011 season. But, he really started to come around. First pick overall good? Well, no. But, many seem to act like he's the worst quarterback in the league. Had he been cut before 2011, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye. Just another one of the many quarterbacks that haven't worked out for us in many, many years. But, that didn't happen. Alex improved beyond anyone's expectations. Probably even Harbaugh's. Unfortunately for Alex, he got a concussion and Colin, despite a very small sample size, seems to be an immediate upgrade at the position.

Don't get me wrong. Any upgrade at any position makes me a happy camper. I want my Niners to get another ring. I just don't see why feeling bad for a guy that was playing at a career high level and improving, on a winning team, is so hard for some to understand. I guess I'm just looking for that explanation.
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steadypimpin


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/

I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:

Quote:
“Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.

“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin.


Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization.


I don't disagree with that. But, when you say, "no one should feel bad," it comes off as kind of...well...harsh. Don't you think? I was Alex's biggest critic before the 2011 season. But, he really started to come around. First pick overall good? Well, no. But, many seem to act like he's the worst quarterback in the league. Had he been cut before 2011, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye. Just another one of the many quarterbacks that haven't worked out for us in many, many years. But, that didn't happen. Alex improved beyond anyone's expectations. Probably even Harbaugh's. Unfortunately for Alex, he got a concussion and Colin, despite a very small sample size, seems to be an immediate upgrade at the position.

Don't get me wrong. Any upgrade at any position makes me a happy camper. I want my Niners to get another ring. I just don't see why feeling bad for a guy that was playing at a career high level and improving, on a winning team, is so hard for some to understand. I guess I'm just looking for that explanation.
Who cares? It's a business. Let's all move forward and enjoy our new prospect at QB. He might be the real deal, something we haven't had in a long long time.

I really enjoy seeing Kaep and his development. It's an exciting time to watch what could be the future franchise guy for us. He's got the arm, skillset and coaching to be a BEAST!!!
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clarkfn2284


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i will be the first person to tell you im an not an empathetic person. I dont feel bad for people, i dont believe in good or bad luck, i believe people are in their situations because of decisions they have made and therefore get no sympathy or empathy frome me.

That being said I do not feel bad for Alex for losing his job. He has been given numerous opportunities throughout his career and has been paid a kings ransom for it. Ultimately for me results are all that matter no matter the excuses, thats loser talk and there is no place for it in my world.

However, i watched Alex talk to the media yesterday and i honestly felt terrible for him. Again, not because he lost his job, but because he stood there like a man and had listen to people ask him questions that have no true answer. I watched him say that he didnt have any ill will towards his coach, which i do not believe at all, but its what he had to say to be a good team guy. I felt bad for him that he was in a position where he really couldnt say "screw it, i deserve this job and its not right in my opinion and yeah im pissed off about it and i have ill feelings towards people for it."

The worst and best part is that when he spoke you can tell it truly bothered him to be in that position. His passion for the game and for the team showed. He is a competitor and he made that much clear. I felt sort of uncomfortable watching him struggle to censor himself during the questioning.

After all is said and done i do think Kaep has a higher ceiling. Is he the better option? I dont know that, but i trust the coaching staff so i dont question it. What i do know is that i have a ton of respect for 11, not that it means anything to anybody, but in todays sports world it is rare to see guys who truly love what they are doing and allow these things to effect them.
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NextBigThing wrote:
rice wasn't close to do as good as his stats would lead one to assume


okie dokie!!! He only had 1200 rec yards at 40, but he clearly isnt as good as it appears.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
Thought this was the best thread for this one:

Jim Harbaugh has done this before

Quote:
The true star is Jim Harbaugh, the man courageous/crazy enough to bench the NFL's No. 5-rated QB for an unproven player while the best record in the league remains in reach. "What tips the scales is Colin has the hot hand," Harbaugh said Wednesday. I think what tips the scale is Harbaugh, a guy who trusts his own voice so much that he would bench a guy who went 20-6-1 for him and was 18-for-19 with 3 TDs and no interceptions in his last full game. I don't know whether there's another coach out there who would rock the boat like that. Nor should there be. You're not supposed to do that … mess with a winning formula. But that's Harbaugh, writing his own story.



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8691524/jim-harbaugh-makes-another-bold-decision


Good point. I was listening to both Eric Davis and Steve Young yesterday on the radio and they were talking about how hard it is to bench a guy playing as well as Alex was and how "brave" (not sure what words they actually used) it was of Harbaugh to make that move. Don't think many coaches would change jockeys in the middle of the race, especially when their horse was alreadyin the lead. If we win the SB, or maybe even just get to it, this will be one of the best mid-season personnel moves a coach has ever made.
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clarkfn2284


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/

I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:

Quote:
“Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.

“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin.


Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization.


I don't disagree with that. But, when you say, "no one should feel bad," it comes off as kind of...well...harsh. Don't you think? I was Alex's biggest critic before the 2011 season. But, he really started to come around. First pick overall good? Well, no. But, many seem to act like he's the worst quarterback in the league. Had he been cut before 2011, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye. Just another one of the many quarterbacks that haven't worked out for us in many, many years. But, that didn't happen. Alex improved beyond anyone's expectations. Probably even Harbaugh's. Unfortunately for Alex, he got a concussion and Colin, despite a very small sample size, seems to be an immediate upgrade at the position.

Don't get me wrong. Any upgrade at any position makes me a happy camper. I want my Niners to get another ring. I just don't see why feeling bad for a guy that was playing at a career high level and improving, on a winning team, is so hard for some to understand. I guess I'm just looking for that explanation.


your explanation is that it sounds like you became more emotionally invested in the Alex Smith story over the last 1 1/2 years. Some people like myself do not share the same level of empathy for people. It sounds bad, but i can walk by someone who is down on their luck and not bat an eye or think twice. I think that plays into the fact that people dont feel for him.

as i said above i felt uncomfortable watching him struggle to keep his poise yesterday.

Steady is right, it is a business and ultimately most people who are happy to see Alex go are just people who have had emough of him. ultimately whatever happens Alex isnt worried about how steady views him and steady doesnt care how Alex feels.

I tend to agree with guys like steady. ive seen enough to make my judgement, but i still totally respect what i have seen from alex as teammate
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NextBigThing wrote:
rice wasn't close to do as good as his stats would lead one to assume


okie dokie!!! He only had 1200 rec yards at 40, but he clearly isnt as good as it appears.
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49ers4life


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope colin kaepernick chokes, so Alex Smith will get his job back!
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
justo wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
justo wrote:
Sorry for totally intruding in on this conversation but what are you guys arguing about? Seems like a pretty heated conversation TBH


Alex Smith or Colin Kaepernick

That's the short story. The long story will require 8 years of forum thread digging.
Wasn't it pretty obvious that Kaep was going to be the starter in the future? Smith was a FA when the Niners were trying to pitch Manning and wasn't Harbaugh like super in Luck's ear to coach up Kaepernick in the offense during the lockout? Just seems like the team was never really committed to Smith. Not a totally bad thing. You see across the league teams that are too tied up with the one they got now to go (risk) cashing another one. When you got two decent ones then you are in good position. When the other one takes the job over and you think he has more talent and upside then that's even better, right? Look at the Bledsoe/Brady, Favre/Rodgers stuff. Teams went with the young, hot hand with a higher upside instead of the vet that would be tied down with most of the teams in the league.


All 3 of these are completely different scenarios in my eyes. Bledsoe was playing pretty poorly and the Patriots were floundering (5-13 under him from 2000-2001). He gets injured and is out for a good portion of the season when Brady steps up and plays very well. Alex was playing at a high level over the last year and a half and only missed one game due to injury.

Brett Favre is actually somewhat closer, in the sense that he followed up some poor seasons with a great one, leading his team to a 13-3 record and a trip to the NFC Championship game where he lost by 3 to the Giants. However, the major difference there - Favre retired after the season. Rodgers was made the starter through natural transition. Favre then just wanted to come back, but by that time, Rodgers had gone through most of the offseason as the starter, and they decided it was time to move on.

Still - I agree that Kaepernick was brought in to eventually be Smith's replacement. The major issue now is that it was done after Smith was playing at a fairly high level over the 5 quarters (and the season as a whole) before he was injured for one game after Smith self-reported a concussion. Many question if Kaepernick is ready to handle adversity when we're very clearly a team with championship potential.

Myself - I'm torn on the subject because I can very clearly see both sides, though I do say the offense seems to operate 'better' in the eye test with Kaepernick to date. Such things as the ability to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield to make passes to receivers eventually getting open and make some riskier passes are things Smith hasn't shown he can do. IMO, it all comes down to the second one - those riskier passes are going to make or break the season. Either he'll connect with some minor miracles and we'll go all the way, or he'll throw one more Alex wouldn't have, and the season will end on a mistake that could have been avoided.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.


I agree with every single thing you've said here. I've always assumed Kap would take over when he knew the offense well enough, and knew how to read defenses and make adjustments, etc. My only reservation is that young QBs inevitably make some mistakes. I'm OK with that too as long as there aren't too many and they don't come at a horrible time for us. That's something we just won't know till the season's over.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place

And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.

Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way


Who's not giving Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt? As for ranking QBs by yards and TDs, there are lots of ways to rank QBs, but looking at total yards is one of the worst possible ways.

I'm also not sure how "recent" you mean when you talk about "recent history". There are multiple approaches to NFL offense. Some teams emphasize the pass and their QBs rack up a lot of yards and TDs, but that isn't the only way to win games, or doesn't even guarantee you will win games. You can win games with good defense, a solid running game, and a QB that doesn't pass nearly as much as long as he makes few if any mistakes and keeps the offense moving. When Pitt won the SB in 2008 Ben was 14th in yards that year and 15th in TDs; the guy he beat in the SB was 2nd and 3rd in those stats. When the Giants won in 2007 they were a much different team than they are now. Manning was not in the top 10 in either yards or TDs; the guy he beat in the SB was first in both, and by a lot. What history has taught me is that you need a team to win the SB and an approach that works for the talents of the guys you've assembled.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
BBIB wrote:
I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place

And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.

Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way


Well, let's use a little context here, though.

I'm not saying Alex is an elite passer. I don't think anyone would argue that point. But, let's not act like we had a ton of weapons for him to throw to last year, either. Crabtree has exploded this year, but Kyle freakin' Williams had the most touchdowns of any of our WRs until....week 16? 17, maybe? Braylon Edwards couldn't catch a cold. We lost Josh Morgan due to injury early in the season. Ted Ginn was great at returning, but left a lot to be desired at WR. As for tight ends, Vernon Davis didn't really show up until the playoffs. Delanie Walker was pretty non-existent as well. Oh, and did I mention we led the league in drops per attempt by a fairly wide margin?

So, we relied heavily upon our running game. Yardage is quite possibly the worst stat to look at without context, especially in run-first offense.

With the new weapons, Alex was improving. No, he wasn't doubling the stats, but he was making huge strides. Just look at how many less field goals we're making this year versus last.

All that said, Colin looks poised to be a great quarterback. Really looking forward to see how much he progresses. If he can get us to a Top 10-15 offense with our #1 defense, we are going to have a dynasty here. Very excited! I just don't like seeing revisionist history based on one or two irrelevant stats.


It seems to me that people sometimes forget that in the most of important game of the year we had one guy playing WR that couldn't make the active roster when the season started and another that wasn't even in the league when the season started.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
Ataal wrote:
Miami49er wrote:
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/

I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:

Quote:
“Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.

“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin.


Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization.


I don't disagree with that. But, when you say, "no one should feel bad," it comes off as kind of...well...harsh. Don't you think? I was Alex's biggest critic before the 2011 season. But, he really started to come around. First pick overall good? Well, no. But, many seem to act like he's the worst quarterback in the league. Had he been cut before 2011, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye. Just another one of the many quarterbacks that haven't worked out for us in many, many years. But, that didn't happen. Alex improved beyond anyone's expectations. Probably even Harbaugh's. Unfortunately for Alex, he got a concussion and Colin, despite a very small sample size, seems to be an immediate upgrade at the position.

Don't get me wrong. Any upgrade at any position makes me a happy camper. I want my Niners to get another ring. I just don't see why feeling bad for a guy that was playing at a career high level and improving, on a winning team, is so hard for some to understand. I guess I'm just looking for that explanation.


Nicely said.
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steadypimpin


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ers4life wrote:
I hope colin kaepernick chokes, so Alex Smith will get his job back!
yeah that's great. You hope we mess up so Alex comes back. You sure you're a fan of this team or an Alex fan? That's ridiculous to even want that to happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steadypimpin wrote:
49ers4life wrote:
I hope colin kaepernick chokes, so Alex Smith will get his job back!
yeah that's great. You hope we mess up so Alex comes back. You sure you're a fan of this team or an Alex fan? That's ridiculous to even want that to happen.
its pretty sad bro.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steadypimpin wrote:
49ers4life wrote:
I hope colin kaepernick chokes, so Alex Smith will get his job back!
yeah that's great. You hope we mess up so Alex comes back. You sure you're a fan of this team or an Alex fan? That's ridiculous to even want that to happen.



Be honest and tell me frankly that you never wished Alex would mess up so that Kaepernick would get on the field...

If the above situation happened, does it mean you (or an hypothetical subject) was a fan of Kaepernick, and not of the team? As if being fan of a player and a team was mutually exclusive. THAT is ridiculous.
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