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Is Schwartz on the hot seat???
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25172
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.

Part of the Lions long term problem has been a ownership group that have been far to reluctant to change.

Lets not lose sight of the fact the Lions aren't just the worst team in the NFL but historically the worst team in professional sports.
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.

Part of the Lions long term problem has been a ownership group that have been far to reluctant to change.

Lets not lose sight of the fact the Lions aren't just the worst team in the NFL but historically the worst team in professional sports.


I mean it just says alot when you hired within for the new GM spot after 0-16 the worst record ever. Not that Mayhew has even been bad. He hasn't he's been decent actually but people forget that at that time there were guys like Bill Parcels available for the job and Lions didn't even give the guy an interview. Mad How did you know Mayhew was the man if you didn't even bring in a quality sample size to choose from? Confused
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.
That isn't a list of who was fired. It is a list of people who haven't progressed.

BB hasn't really progressed since 2004. Should he be fired?

McCarthy had 1 year he won and is now being blown out by a team that was 1-3 the 4 games before them and losing in first round of playoffs all while having one of the best rosters in the the NFL. Should he be fired?

Cincy was a playoff team like us last year in a lesser conference and is only 1 game above us.

My point is you don't have to progress every year to not be fired.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just... it's a really tough sport, and one where, if you're looking to evaluate a team, you can't just look at record.

Take our game against the Texans: who was the better team? Then, take an opportunity where Jason Hanson is kicking a 47 yard FG to win the game. How many of those chances result in a Detroit Lions' win? Most of 'em. He happened to miss that one.

So, looking just at the final score, the Texans were the better team. Looking at the game, there was a point where we had a 90%+ chance to win the game from one play. Were the Texans truly "better", or did they just happen to win a close, hard-fought game?

That's an entire NFL season.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.
That isn't a list of who was fired. It is a list of people who haven't progressed.

BB hasn't really progressed since 2004. Should he be fired?

McCarthy had 1 year he won and is now being blown out by a team that was 1-3 the 4 games before them and losing in first round of playoffs all while having one of the best rosters in the the NFL. Should he be fired?

Cincy was a playoff team like us last year in a lesser conference and is only 1 game above us.

My point is you don't have to progress every year to not be fired.


My point is that those situations have absolutely no relevance to the Detroit Lions.

It becomes absurd when you mention BB in any comparison for any reason. The man has one of the best coaching records in football and New England is a contender annually.

McCarthy has success every season with the Packers. In his tenure the team is 70-37 with a Super Bowl championship. When he took over the team was 4-12 the previous year.

The Jaguars? Mike Mularky is a first year coach.

The Bengals are a poorly run franchise and ownership continues to meddle making numerous mistakes.

The Jets are the same. Poor franchise, terrible management.

The Titans have a second year head coach.

Dallas the coach is in his third year and looks to be on thin ice. Once again though the Cowboys suffer greatly because of an owner who thinks he knows football.

The Browns, Shurmur second year head coach and the franchise just changed owners.

The Raiders have a first year coach.

Philadelphia, in 13 years Andy Reid has had three losing seasons. It appears in spite of that he is on the hot seat.

You're really grasping at straws.
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qball8001


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.
That isn't a list of who was fired. It is a list of people who haven't progressed.

BB hasn't really progressed since 2004. Should he be fired?

McCarthy had 1 year he won and is now being blown out by a team that was 1-3 the 4 games before them and losing in first round of playoffs all while having one of the best rosters in the the NFL. Should he be fired?

Cincy was a playoff team like us last year in a lesser conference and is only 1 game above us.

My point is you don't have to progress every year to not be fired.


My point is that those situations have absolutely no relevance to the Detroit Lions.

It becomes absurd when you mention BB in any comparison for any reason. The man has one of the best coaching records in football and New England is a contender annually.

McCarthy has success every season with the Packers. In his tenure the team is 70-37 with a Super Bowl championship. When he took over the team was 4-12 the previous year.

The Jaguars? Mike Mularky is a first year coach.

The Bengals are a poorly run franchise and ownership continues to meddle making numerous mistakes.

The Jets are the same. Poor franchise, terrible management.

The Titans have a second year head coach.

Dallas the coach is in his third year and looks to be on thin ice. Once again though the Cowboys suffer greatly because of an owner who thinks he knows football.

The Browns, Shurmur second year head coach and the franchise just changed owners.

The Raiders have a first year coach.

Philadelphia, in 13 years Andy Reid has had three losing seasons. It appears in spite of that he is on the hot seat.

You're really grasping at straws.


I disagree, I think you are grasping to be quite frank. (not an attack)

This team has been in EVERY game despite not playing well for 3/4 of most games. This team has been battling the injury bug in the secondary, which already was one of the worst in the league.

I bet we finish the year 7-9. I can also see 6-10. But, the past two years in December the Lions are 7-1. JS gets this team to play when it has to. Also, we are not mathematically eliminated. And both the Giants and the Packers where 7-7 when they won the superbowl.

This team will be fine, one more draft for depth and hopefully some FA come in and we will be a contender year in year out.

Warren Sapp said it best, we made the playoffs one year, and then the Coaches came in thinking we where good and started to get exotic on us, and we took a step back. This team needs to back to doing what it does well, the basic's and stop trying to be crazy.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qball8001 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Why do people say "We aren't improving we need a coach that will"?

If every team had to improve or their coach woudl be fire 40+% would be canned a year.

Jets: Regressed
Packers: Regressed
Jags: Regressed
Tennessee: Regressed
NE: Hasn't improved
Dallas: Regressed
Philly: Regressed
Panthers: Regressed
Oakland: Regressed
Arizona: Regressed
Cleveland: Regressed
Cincy: Regressed

Man a lot of coaches fired this year. Confused


Basing a course of action on the inaction of others isn't the way to effectively manage anything.

Mayhew doesn't sit and look at which other coaches have been fired as part of his rationale in firing Schwartz. If he does then he should also be fired.
That isn't a list of who was fired. It is a list of people who haven't progressed.

BB hasn't really progressed since 2004. Should he be fired?

McCarthy had 1 year he won and is now being blown out by a team that was 1-3 the 4 games before them and losing in first round of playoffs all while having one of the best rosters in the the NFL. Should he be fired?

Cincy was a playoff team like us last year in a lesser conference and is only 1 game above us.

My point is you don't have to progress every year to not be fired.


My point is that those situations have absolutely no relevance to the Detroit Lions.

It becomes absurd when you mention BB in any comparison for any reason. The man has one of the best coaching records in football and New England is a contender annually.

McCarthy has success every season with the Packers. In his tenure the team is 70-37 with a Super Bowl championship. When he took over the team was 4-12 the previous year.

The Jaguars? Mike Mularky is a first year coach.

The Bengals are a poorly run franchise and ownership continues to meddle making numerous mistakes.

The Jets are the same. Poor franchise, terrible management.

The Titans have a second year head coach.

Dallas the coach is in his third year and looks to be on thin ice. Once again though the Cowboys suffer greatly because of an owner who thinks he knows football.

The Browns, Shurmur second year head coach and the franchise just changed owners.

The Raiders have a first year coach.

Philadelphia, in 13 years Andy Reid has had three losing seasons. It appears in spite of that he is on the hot seat.

You're really grasping at straws.


I disagree, I think you are grasping to be quite frank. (not an attack)

This team has been in EVERY game despite not playing well for 3/4 of most games. This team has been battling the injury bug in the secondary, which already was one of the worst in the league.

I bet we finish the year 7-9. I can also see 6-10. But, the past two years in December the Lions are 7-1. JS gets this team to play when it has to. Also, we are not mathematically eliminated. And both the Giants and the Packers where 7-7 when they won the superbowl.

This team will be fine, one more draft for depth and hopefully some FA come in and we will be a contender year in year out.

Warren Sapp said it best, we made the playoffs one year, and then the Coaches came in thinking we where good and started to get exotic on us, and we took a step back. This team needs to back to doing what it does well, the basic's and stop trying to be crazy.


With all due respect Q my opinion on Schwartz stated on the first page is that he isn't on the hot seat and shouldn't be until the end of next season.

My point to skate beans is that you don't base decisions on what other organizations do, or don't do.

The Lions as an organization need to make decisions on their organization not others. Mayhew can't sit and use the tenure of coaches in other organizations as a basis for evaluating Schwartz.

If you recall when Mayhew was first promoted I was sounding off on the Lions biggest organizational flaw being the total absence of a proper performance evaluation system. One of his biggest challenges as a new GM was to install performance metrics and evaluation structures for the entire organization from marketing right down to the practice squad. The Lions as an organization have been adrift since the day WCF bought out the minority owners. Ford Motor Company was a fine example of an organization that was failing badly due to the absence of proper corporate structure with goals and objectives. The company only turned itself around when proper leadership was brought in.

For far to many years the Lions have been a cult of personality run on handshakes, empty promises and gut feelings. Millen may have been a really nice guy but he was the worst football executive in history. A proper corporate structure would have high lighted his shortcomings by the end of year two and resulted in his dismissal at the end of year three.

As for everyone's comments about injuries in the secondary, being in position to win games etc.

None of that really matters. What matters is wins ladies and gentlemen. Nothing else.

I work in a high stress performance oriented industry. Key people come and go all the time but organizationally you have to have personnel in place to face those challenges head on. I myself am on some extended sick leave but it was my responsibility to make damn sure someone could step in for me so that my division of the corporation meets all its goals and objectives. My staff routinely eave because one of my key objectives s to groom them for management positions in our field facilities. In the next year I will lose two key people but I already have selected and been grooming their replacements.

If not for the absolute disaster inherited by Schwartz and Mayhew they shouldn't have had as much time as they've been given but some allowance has to be made.

Lions fans are just so accustomed to losing that any player of quality becomes an untouchable and one playoff appearance is viewed as a miracle.

This organization has to be held to higher standards or they will never achieve anything.

Imagine yourself performing in your career with the same success rate the Lions have had over the past decade. Rolling Eyes 25-30% success rate just doesn't cut it.

You would be searching for a new career.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the same time, DHLF, circumstances undoubtedly play a factor when considering business evaluation. For a drastic example: east coast companies were certainly hit during Hurricane Sandy. I doubt managers ignored those circumstances when evaluating how the company performed.

The best way to evaluate Jim Schwartz would be to look at each game individually and give him a pass/fail grade based on the team's performance alone. Ask: were they good enough to win that game? That is an appropriate way to evaluate a coach, in my opinion.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
At the same time, DHLF, circumstances undoubtedly play a factor when considering business evaluation. For a drastic example: east coast companies were certainly hit during Hurricane Sandy. I doubt managers ignored those circumstances when evaluating how the company performed.

The best way to evaluate Jim Schwartz would be to look at each game individually and give him a pass/fail grade based on the team's performance alone. Ask: were they good enough to win that game? That is an appropriate way to evaluate a coach, in my opinion.


In the case of an occurrence like Sandy senior managers would be evaluated on their business resumption plans and facility recovery documentation and performance against stated objectives.

Emergency plans are a part of every senior managers responsibility. What I'm suggesting is that these types of occurrences impact your business but each business needs to have clear documentation creating an emergency management plan.

That plan has multiple components.

Evacuation plans.
Facility recovery plans.
Business resumption plans.
Human Resource Plans

Now I doubt any mom and pop operations have conducted this type of planning but all mid to large corporations have and if not management is incompetent. These plans should be tested yearly to validate the concepts and ensure they can be carried out.

Managers would be assessed on how they implemented the plans. How effective the plans were and if the goals and objectives of the emergency management plan (motherhood document) were achieved.

In the case of Schwartz I would agree philosophically however it needs to be much more defined than if they were in a position to win the game.

A classic example would be Hanson's field goal attempt. Everyone in the forum thought it was the right thing to do however it was unsuccessful so by definition it wasn't. What I'm suggesting is there needs to be a game by game evaluation conducted using film study etc. to break down the game to assess play calling, schemes, points etc.

I'm certain everyone will step back and say calling Hanson's missed field goal a mistake is unfair. When evaluating you have to be brutally honest in the process or the process is invalid. Taken as a solitary failure a missed field goal wouldn't cost Schwartz or Hanson their job but its important to label it with an unsatisfactory term because it was unsuccessful.

Football like anything technical has outcomes that can and do hinge on a number of seemingly little mistakes that cumulatively contribute to an unsatisfactory result. Within industry we refer to it as lining up the holes in the Swiss Cheese.

It's extremely important to label each error accurately so once evaluation is completed areas that need improvement are clearly identifiable. That's how people can improve their performance. By not conducting these types of evaluations everyone is operating in a void without understanding clearly what they are unsuccessful.

Again I want to say that Mayhew and Schwartz shouldn't be in trouble yet but the performance of each individual within the organization should be accurately measured with a focus on improved performance.

As a side note I'm fairly certain Mayhew has implemented some level of performance assessment because there is a marked improvement in employee engagement within the organization.

My recent experience with all the staff members from marketing, bartenders, food vendors to the staff at the Lions store has been amazing. Without exception every individual I have come in contact with has had a smile on their face. They have been eager to help and have displayed amazing customer service.

Now over time if assessment and this level of engagement reaches the field the Lions organization will be a consistent winning organization.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. Thanks for the response.

If Jim Schwartz is responsible for losses, he must also be responsible for putting his team in a position to win. He did just that against Houston, leaving the outcome of the game up to a 47 yard Hanson attempt. That's a coaching victory, in my opinion... Hanson needs to execute.

Which is why I wont only consider the final score when evaluating a coach.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are al looking at this too much in terms of how many wins do the Lions have or how many wins does it take to justify keeping him on. Like any other person on this team, Schwartz should be evaluated based on his performance - what he does on and off the field. Granted, wins and losses are apart of that but it cant be the full picture. No one person on a team should be credited for the wins nor blamed for the losses.

With that said, what we can evaluate him are things like the system he installed (does it make us competitive), discipline of the team, how prepared we are, game-time decisions, and the evaluation of the talent on his team. Obviously we are not in the best vantage point as fans to properly evaluate him based on these traits, but some things we can. His system (wide-9) seems legit, we seem somewhat prepared for games and the team has found some diamonds in the rough ala Levy, Young, and Bell (some of that credit goes to Mayhew). However, we are one of the most indiscipline and penalized teams in the NFL and he has made some questionable game-time decisions especially last game.

So IMO, I think he should looked at hard next year to see if we need to keep him or move on
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
I see. Thanks for the response.

If Jim Schwartz is responsible for losses, he must also be responsible for putting his team in a position to win. He did just that against Houston, leaving the outcome of the game up to a 47 yard Hanson attempt. That's a coaching victory, in my opinion... Hanson needs to execute.

Which is why I wont only consider the final score when evaluating a coach.


I don't disagree but Schwartz had choices. He didn't have to attempt the field goal at that point.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
I see. Thanks for the response.

If Jim Schwartz is responsible for losses, he must also be responsible for putting his team in a position to win. He did just that against Houston, leaving the outcome of the game up to a 47 yard Hanson attempt. That's a coaching victory, in my opinion... Hanson needs to execute.

Which is why I wont only consider the final score when evaluating a coach.


I don't disagree but Schwartz had choices. He didn't have to attempt the field goal at that point.

We can dissect that decision as well: if the entire evaluation of Schwartz hinged on that one decision - a 47 yard field goal from Jason Hanson on 3rd down to win the game - would you say he deserves a failing grade for that game?

I think it's dangerous to state that the evaluation of a head coach is based 100% on the record, as coaches can do a terrible job and still win games. I don't think that can be denied. If that's the case, then some are willing to acknowledge that bad coaching can still win games, and good coaching can still lose games, but that those are the proper criteria to use to evaluate a head coach. And I don't think that's accurate.
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