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Bush v. Thomas

 
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Bush v. Thomas Reply with quote

Carries were essentially split between Bush and Thomas last week. The three or four weeks prior to that, there were a few more carries for Thomas. My question is, who should be toting the rock for the Dolphins more, Bush or Thomas? What kind of split would you like to see?
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Maddogg


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

65/35 Bush as far as running plays. Would like to see Bush more as a slot receiver. Get the man in open space where he can do some damage.
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fishfan4life


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a huge bush supporter but thomas is growing on me he doesnt lose yards and fallls forward on his carries lately. With that said 65/35 bush i just wish we used bush more in the passing game and it might be the one thing that has surprised me the most this year is how few catches he has i thought this system would bring back his saints days in the passing gme. With a upgrade on the line i like them together and thomas looks like he has quick feet in the screen game..
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally 18-12(60-40) Bush/Thomas. 30 carries and 30 passes for 60 plays a game.

I'm starting to like Thomas more too, still want to see Miller though. Now that we have only 4 receivers and two are developing guys, I think we might start to see Bush line up wide. Especially vs the Patriots where we're gonna need his deep speed.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.) Let's Take a Hint
I hate to break this to you guys but Reggie Bush is a glorified special teamer. Welcome to the NFL, you can't be as small and fragile as Bush and expect to hang onto the starting job when it requires power and toughness just as much as it does running ability. Look at the team that he came from--who is markedly better than us, mind you, and who is coached by an offensive genius. Sean Peyton knew what the heck he was doing and he saw the light at the end of the tunnel. Reggie Bush lacked the power to be a full-time RB and he couldn't stay healthy getting hit by NFL players each week.

2.) Offensive Interchangeability

The Saints now feature 4 RBs: Ingram, Thomas, Ivory and Sproles who also handles special teams duty. What the Saints feature today is something like 4 Lamar Millers. None of those guys stand out which is exactly the point. Good offenses feature WRs who all resemble each other. The same is true of RBs. You want interchangeability so that the offensive coordinator doesn't have his hands tied when 1 guy is in the game.

3.) Reward Your Blockers
Another fact that needs to be pointed out is how the Offensive Linemen do not seem to want to block for Reggie Bush the way they do for Thomas & Miller. As a RB, you have to respect your O-line by showing them that you're not going to just bounce it outside every time. It's become somewhat clear watching the games that the Offensive Lineman do not trust Reggie Bush to follow their blocks and are not being inspired to block aggressively by his running style. The run-blocking is significantly more authoritative when Thomas is in the game.

4.) Special Teams Won't Save Him Here

Daniel Thomas and Lamar Miller are both more valuable players to us than Reggie Bush. Plus, with Marcus Thigpen returning kicks and punts (successfully!) it's safe to say Reggie Bush's fate is sealed.

5.) Replace-ability
How fast did the Saints move on from Bush? Pretty fast, and I'd say they actually got better, too. The question is, when we inevitably get rid of Reggie Bush, would it be too crazy to draft another RB as high as the 3rd or 4th round like we did with Lamar Miller just to keep adding to the position? Like CB, you always need a stable of talented RBs, even if they aren't elite. If we had the chance, would it be something to think about? Probably not this year, but if the right guy was there, would you even consider it?




Now, that's my view put succinctly. For anyone who wants more on my thoughts regarding Bush, you can keep reading, if not don't bother.




Firstly, this isn't a diss on Reggie Bush, it's just a view that I've begun to embrace these last few weeks after having my head get re-adjusted by folks who've watched Reggie Bush his whole career. So, please, hear me out...

I believe players like Reggie Bush will always be over-rated because they represent how talented a person can be while still not fitting the mold of what makes a productive RB in the NFL: consistency, power, toughness, speed and elusiveness. It boils down to a talent-vs-production argument.

Bush might be a 10 in speed and elusiveness but he's lacking so much in the other categories (power, toughness) he's not very good for an offense looking to keep the chains moving. I believe Sean Peyton recognized this and went to move after a stable of RBs who had some of the elusiveness Bush had (Sproles, Thomas, Ivory & Ingram) but who all had ample power to achieve the goal of the position which is ultimately to run and be tough to tackle. That--at the NFL level--requires significantly more power than it does at USC! Wink

To put it bluntly, without ever even thinking about how good or bad the O-line is, it's likely that each big play Reggie Bush creates will be paid for by a half dozen others that end in minimal gains or tackles for loss. An offense trying to develop it's passing game (and in particular it's rookie QB) is shooting itself in the foot by trying to highlight a player as up and down as Reggie Bush. Ironically, a less-talented RB that offers more consistency is probably better suited not only for this offense but also our particular situation.

There are a multitude of guys who play the role that Reggie Bush does but who are significantly stronger and more physical. Short RBs with powerful bodies are all over the NFL today from Jonathan Stewart to Ray Rice to Kendall Hunter to Darren Sproles to CJ Spiller to Jacquizz Rodgers to Doug Martin to Ahmad Bradshaw. All of these guys are essentially doing the same thing: catching check-downs and making people miss in space. None of them however have had success without at some point proving they have some power to back up their athleticism. Bush, by comparison, has never shown that power and thus he's never been able to take that next step.

The very thing people complained about with Ted Ginn Jr and what supposedly made him a limited WR, is to a large extent no different than what I see with Reggie Bush. Here's a guy who lacks size. Bush tries to make up for it with agility the way Ginn did with speed. The problem is, you have to give those players so many chances to make a big play that you wind up slowing your offense down in the process.

The problem we have with Reggie Bush is that he's very weak compared with these other guys. He's an elusive runner but he's got 0 power. That makes him a liability behind almost any O-line and it makes me wonder just how valuable Reggie Bush will even be to an offense that doesn't seem to want to "check it down" all that often. I'd rather find the players to make this offense work properly than re-sign guys who are talented but who don't fit.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the majority of posters here that Bush ought to be utilized more in the passing game, however, the suspect play of the right side of the line has probably necessitated the RB's to stay into block a bit more. As a result Bush is not being used to his full ability. As for a carry split with Thomas...I'd prefer to see Thomas with no more than about 5 carries per game. He looked good last week, and from time to time before that, but Bush is far more consistent and far more of a gamebreaker. As a result, I'd like to see a much heftier split for Bush. Can I say split for Bush on this site? Wink

The notion that Reggie Bush is pedestrian or replaceable is comical. Bush provides the exact thing that every coordinator desperately searches for and that is big plays. He has the 2nd most amount of runs of 15+ yards in the league (2nd only to Adrian Peterson) on nearly 50 fewer carries. Bush also does more with less. Bush also has a top 10 rating in elusiveness according to Pro Football Focus. The "Elusive Rating" boils down a runner's success beyond the point of being helped by his blockers. In other words, when blocking breaks down, Bush still is able to make things happen.

Beyond that, Reggie is the consummate professional, THE team leader, and sets the tone in the locker room. His value is extraordinarily high.

I am not confident, however, that we will retain him. The team has some very tough decisions ahead of them due to poor cap management and we will have to let some good players go. RB is a position where good players can be found in the draft. Great players, like Bush, however, are much harder to come by. I fear we will let him go and I think our offense will suffer as a result.
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fishfan4life


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree sir. Reggie bush has started 26 of his last 27 games in the NFL thats very durable if you look around the league and compare it to other RB. Just today in the muskefire.com bill belichek said he admires bush toughness and that he is more powerful then people think. I think sometimes players get a label for what they did early in there careers and it sticks with them thats the case with bush. Though he does sometimes have lapses of dancing he is a between the tackle runner now. For a line that supposedly doesnt like to block for him he is averaging 4.5 a carry and 5 yards last year thats very solid. This all coming from a line that most of us agree is where the players dont fit the scheme. The reason the saints got rid of him was he was the last draft class where rookies raped the system and he was due a big ballon payment and yes at the time was coming off a injury and had not made his mark yet in the run game. Let me make it clear i by no means am saying we need to pay him big bucks to stay here but bush is a very good RB and if he want to stay at a fair price we do it. He just recently said he would he wnts to stay here and win a superbowl with miami cause he see's a simularity between the saints and dolphins.
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Miami2DaMax


Joined: 24 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maddogg wrote:
65/35 Bush as far as running plays. Would like to see Bush more as a slot receiver. Get the man in open space where he can do some damage.


This. Before the Season started I actually thought he would have a lot of plays like this:

xxxxx

x x x

I'm sure most people can tell where the QB is, and the left being Bush and the Right being Miller with them both going out for passes, seeing as Thomas is a runner where Miller has great speed like Bush and could be dangerous.

But I was wrong, I just wanted to see it happen...can't say it would be successful, but worth a try.
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