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(re) Building the Oakland Raiders
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
attack_in_s/b wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.


I was under the impression you were a cop. Darn, a lot of good references gone to waste. If you don't think the NFL is a corporation you have grossly underestimated why Goodell was brought in. In no way did suggest that McKenzie would purposely hire someone incompetent what I am suggesting is that McKenzie hired what he thinks is young coach on the rise that they can grow into their respective positions together rather than hire a veteran HC with a reputation that could possibly command more informal power with an inexperienced owner than he would like. Perhaps, part of the reason McKenzie let Hue go was that he was uncomfortable working with the man that Al Davis obvious had a close relationship with. McKenzie wants his hands on every aspect of the organization.


Totally agreed. Not that RM hired someone he thought would fail, but someone that wouldn't create a power struggle. Hiring a coach with a good track record/lots of experience inevitably leads to power struggles... especially with a losing team like ours... difference of opinions as to which way the team should go. DA being a first time head coach, is going to assume only the role of a coach. The premiere coaches in this league have their hands in many different aspects of the organization. Not to say DA is a pawn, however, it does seem like the move to fire hue in favor of DA was a move to secure decision making power explicitly to RM.

Also, i always hate the rep of "offensive/defensive genius".... the coaches don't control how the players play. Historically, these reps are totally interchangeable based on the talent they are working with. For example, when Tony Dungy started in Tampa, he was considered a defensive genius... goes to Indy and becomes an offensive genius... why? Because Tampa had a good defense and Indy had Peyton. Just like coaches take a lot of the blame for a teams failure, they also get credited heavily for the teams areas of success. I highly doubt DA was a defensive genius in Denver... he just had a good defense to work with. Can't expect him to come in and be a defensive genius... he doesn't have the talent to work with.

I don't hold DA accountable for our failures... i really don't think there are many coaches in this league that could make our defense good given our personell. What i do criticize DA for is being conservative.

Not to get too much into this but why not start Pryor? At this point we are basically lobbying for a good draft spot now... We are getting killed already, starting pryor isn't gonna make things any worse, it's basically unanimous that Palmer isn't our QBoTF, imo he isn't earning his starting job either. Im not sure why we have written off Pryor as a possible QBoTF, he's looked promising in preseason, he's got all the physical tools. Worst case scenario, he comes in and plays poorly... we still lose... At least now we know that our QBoTF isn't already on the roster...

We don't owe Palmer anything, definitely not a starting job when he continues to be a turnover machine...


Excellent post. I just wanted to add a few points:

The benefit or bane of the salary cap, depending on your perspective, is that no team can shore up every weakness. Because every team has a weakness it creates parity through matchups. When a "genius" is brought in their objective is create value. Let me explain using examples:

While Dungy was an excellent defensive coach he virtually knows nothing about offense evident during his tenure in Tampa. While in Tampa the offense struggled while Dungy spent most of his capital (ie:draft picks) on defensive players (Sapp, Brooks, Lynch,etc). He was fired in part because of his inability to create value in the field of his expertise. When Dungy went to Indy Peyton & OC Tom Moore had full command of the offense while Dungy focused on creating value on defense. The Tampa 2 creates value because you don't need high priced CBs to run it. In addition, value was created by capitalizing on drafting smaller players that fell in the draft (Freeney, Sanders). When the Colts had the lead during his tenure they were a dangerous team because all they had to do was pin their ears back and get after the QB but if teams ran the ball at them they were done (Steelers/Bettis, Pats/Dillon).

Gruden took over for Dungy in Tampa. Gruden has built a career by creating value at the QB position (Brad Johnson, Gannon). However, Gruden has proven unable to develop QBs in his complicated system.

Kubiak creates value through cheaper smaller OL who run his system.

The question at hand is where does current Raider HC Allen create value? Can he draft a nondescript interior DL and get more out of him than he should? or can he draft a small DE like Mingo or Moore and get Von Miller-like return? or was Knapp brought in to create value on the OL by using the ZBS? The jury is still out because we have yet to be able to identify the strength of his defensive philosophy.

Secondly, in regards to Palmer. I have yet to see any indication that the Raiders have any waivering confidence in Palmer. I don't think they are concerned about the QBotF because I believe they are under the impression that they are set at QB for the next few seasons and can concentrate on other weak links. Thank goodness Palmer is here. Desperately seeking a QB in a weak QB class with all of the other glaring needs would be a recipe for complete disaster. Granted Palmer had back-to-back bad games. However, generally speaking most football people (ie: people who run teams & evaluate players) don't think that Palmer is the reason the Raiders are losing games. Stop believing that the organization views things the way you do.

What's frustrating is why the pro-Pryor camp cannot see how installing Pryor while the offense is already struggling with the current offense would be a HUGE setback as the entire offensive unit would have to learn an entire new package mid-season.


I wish I could create a flash opening of this statement that pops up before every post in the forum is submitted. Kudos, someone gets it.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6470
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.


Man we could only hope. But I think losing that 5th is a done deal.


Based on what?? Curry barely played . . .
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6470
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those expecting a multitude of cuts this offseason:

Q: Could the Raiders potentially cut every single starter (22 players) and start completely over if they wanted?
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34533
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.


Man we could only hope. But I think losing that 5th is a done deal.


Based on what?? Curry barely played . . .


No, its gone forever from what I read in the Seattle forum while filling in for SoS
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6470
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.


Man we could only hope. But I think losing that 5th is a done deal.


Based on what?? Curry barely played . . .


No, its gone forever from what I read in the Seattle forum while filling in for SoS


Of course Seattle fans are under impression the Seahawks have garnered an additional 5th. However, Curry didn't play so I'll hold judgement until I see something official or the terms of the conditional pick are released.
_________________
Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 2620
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.


Man we could only hope. But I think losing that 5th is a done deal.


Based on what?? Curry barely played . . .


No, its gone forever from what I read in the Seattle forum while filling in for SoS


Of course Seattle fans are under impression the Seahawks have garnered an additional 5th. However, Curry didn't play so I'll hold judgement until I see something official or the terms of the conditional pick are released.


The only way the Raiders would have got the 5th back if he failed the physical last year so yes its gone.

I also think the Raiders traded the 7th round pick in this past draft, but Louis Murphy was traded for a conditional pick not sure if its this coming draft or next.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10900
Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
Dat Raider wrote:
I would love to get Rex Ryan as our DC once he gets kicked out of New York. Once we get some talent during the off-season to add to our defense, he will be the perfect person for us to move forward with.

Now that would be interesting. Not sure he fits the type of guy DA or Reggie would want though.

Still mad we didnt make a big push to get Mike Nolan.


While I also would have liked the Raiders to pursue more well established coordinators, I realize that the NFL is also about relationships. I wonder how Mike Nolan would feel about working for Allen when he probably feels Allen should be his understudy? It would be a mistake to believe that compensation is the only factor of consideration.

I would like the Raiders to focus on attracting coordinators that are proven commodities but who are at a point in their careers where they are no longer ambitious and seek the stability of being a long-time coordinator (just examples not who i'd want: tom moore, saunders, wade, turner, lebeau)


We have Al Saunders in the building but they didn't wanna utilize him as the OC. He is just a senior offensive assistant. Whatever the hell that means. Maybe when we get rid of Knapp then Saunders can roll right into the OC spot. I just don't know how big he is on the whole ZBS thing.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3812
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
Dat Raider wrote:
I would love to get Rex Ryan as our DC once he gets kicked out of New York. Once we get some talent during the off-season to add to our defense, he will be the perfect person for us to move forward with.

Now that would be interesting. Not sure he fits the type of guy DA or Reggie would want though.

Still mad we didnt make a big push to get Mike Nolan.


While I also would have liked the Raiders to pursue more well established coordinators, I realize that the NFL is also about relationships. I wonder how Mike Nolan would feel about working for Allen when he probably feels Allen should be his understudy? It would be a mistake to believe that compensation is the only factor of consideration.

I would like the Raiders to focus on attracting coordinators that are proven commodities but who are at a point in their careers where they are no longer ambitious and seek the stability of being a long-time coordinator (just examples not who i'd want: tom moore, saunders, wade, turner, lebeau)


We have Al Saunders in the building but they didn't wanna utilize him as the OC. He is just a senior offensive assistant. Whatever the hell that means. Maybe when we get rid of Knapp then Saunders can roll right into the OC spot. I just don't know how big he is on the whole ZBS thing.


Saunders is an offensive genius he's a legend in the NFL.
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dawsonleery


Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 793
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Al Saunders is promoted to OC, than we have to keep Carson Plamer. Saunders system is somewhat complex. Trent Green understood it, but it took until year 3 in that system for things to really click for Kansas City. I do believe Saunders is probably the Raiders best option since he has been around the talented for two years now.
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