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dolphan9954


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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Location: Miami
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am of the belief that you need to add a playmaker with your first pick no matter what. With our needs I would only draft a CB, S, or DE in round 1.
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carlos2104


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are the things we SHOULD draft, but if the BPA is outstanding at another position, then I think we have to do it. We need Talent, now matter where it's from
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, look at the defenses which Houston, Green Bay and New Orleans put on the field and tell me that you think they have exceptional DBs.

I definitely see a few outstanding talents like Jonathan Joseph, Charles Woodson, and Nick Collins but I think those groups as a whole benefits from being physical all around.

Great modern defenses seem to be about turnovers. The idea being that you want to get a great offense as many possessions as possible. The most important thing to remember is that pressure creates turnovers because it leads to bad decisions and inaccurate throws. The greatest coverage in the world is going to lead to passes being broken up. What we want is a physical group of DBs that can make plays on the ball when our pass rush gets pressure and creates an opportunity for them.

To me, if we're going to try and build a defense that can create turnovers, we need to look at getting guys more like you seen in Buffalo or like the teams above and less like Sean Smith who might be in solid position but have little-to-no instinct for catching the ball.

We need help but I don't think we necessarily need to be putting 1st round picks into our secondary right now. We should be looking to secure our pass rush first and foremost before we do that.

Remember, Jones has looked very good this year and Chris Clemons is in only his 2nd year starting which means he's still developing although I don't think that's the problem. He came from a very good Clemson secondary and was a 2nd-round talent we got in the 4th or 5th if I recall correctly. Mike Mayock praised Jeff Ireland very highly for making this selection and I think Clemons fits our scheme beautifully and has the skills to stand out in coverage with Jones standing our as the more physical SS.

The one guy we have that doesn't fit our scheme is Sean Smith who's a total man corner. He struggles immensely in zone and simply doesn't look right at all in our secondary. He's a good starter for another type of defense (think of how the Jets play) but I don't think he has what we will be after in a CB.

Once our D-line starts getting better pressure, Chris Clemons is going to start looking more like he did in 2009 when he was playing very well back there and seemed to be much better in coverage. He has the skills but he has no leverage on opposing QBs because our pass rush isn't doing the job. A FS is only as good as the pressure getting to the QB.

I think we're judging a good FS with very solid pass coverage ability badly and it'd be a huge mistake to replace him especially with a 1st round pick like Eric Reid when we need to use that pick to develop our pass rush or our weaponry on offense.

I'll pass on Eric Reid in the 1st round. I've made a decision on that.
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fishfan4life


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishfan4life wrote:
Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .


It would help us a lot if we could get to the passer with our front 4 BUT we also need to recognize that the need is present for talent @ CB. Sean Smith is a smart player and a hard CB to beat in man coverage but we're not that type of defense quite frankly and so I think we'd do best to let him sign with another team instead of tying up our money in a guy that can't really fulfill his duties here, in this scheme.

Chris Clemson and Reshad Jones I like. I have faith in Marshall being decent and don't mind Jimmy Wilson as depth. We will need a young CB to develop but I'm thinking 3rd or 4th rounder who only sees limited action.

Rather than re-sign Sean Smith, I'd let him go play for a team that needs a man-style CB and try to nab someone in FA who might be a decently-reliable starter for a couple of seasons. A Cover-2 style player in the mold of a guy like Asante Samuel is the picture I have in my head. Offer that player a little less money than you'd offer Sean Smith and in 2 years replace him with whoever we've developed.

We can deal with Marshall the same way. The most important thing is that we get guys who fit the mold of what we want which is quickness and athleticism with reliable ball skills. Sean Smith is just not an ideal fit in this Cover-2 style of play.

It would do him best to be somewhere else and it would do us best to find a different set of skills.
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2240
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .


It would help us a lot if we could get to the passer with our front 4 BUT we also need to recognize that the need is present for talent @ CB. Sean Smith is a smart player and a hard CB to beat in man coverage but we're not that type of defense quite frankly and so I think we'd do best to let him sign with another team instead of tying up our money in a guy that can't really fulfill his duties here, in this scheme.

Chris Clemson and Reshad Jones I like. I have faith in Marshall being decent and don't mind Jimmy Wilson as depth. We will need a young CB to develop but I'm thinking 3rd or 4th rounder who only sees limited action.

Rather than re-sign Sean Smith, I'd let him go play for a team that needs a man-style CB and try to nab someone in FA who might be a decently-reliable starter for a couple of seasons. A Cover-2 style player in the mold of a guy like Asante Samuel is the picture I have in my head. Offer that player a little less money than you'd offer Sean Smith and in 2 years replace him with whoever we've developed.

We can deal with Marshall the same way. The most important thing is that we get guys who fit the mold of what we want which is quickness and athleticism with reliable ball skills. Sean Smith is just not an ideal fit in this Cover-2 style of play.

It would do him best to be somewhere else and it would do us best to find a different set of skills.


What are Smith's stats this season. This just seems like made up stuff. You have no facts to support that Sean Smith doesn't work in the lineup.

Dont you think every team in the league would want a CB with 'quickness, atheleticism and reliable ball skills'? Everyone wouldn't want at least 1 Asante Samuel?

You telling me Smith would be good in zone because he can tackle or because of his quickness? I know the answer.

Seems like your opinion, hardly fact.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
phinmun wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .


It would help us a lot if we could get to the passer with our front 4 BUT we also need to recognize that the need is present for talent @ CB. Sean Smith is a smart player and a hard CB to beat in man coverage but we're not that type of defense quite frankly and so I think we'd do best to let him sign with another team instead of tying up our money in a guy that can't really fulfill his duties here, in this scheme.

Chris Clemson and Reshad Jones I like. I have faith in Marshall being decent and don't mind Jimmy Wilson as depth. We will need a young CB to develop but I'm thinking 3rd or 4th rounder who only sees limited action.

Rather than re-sign Sean Smith, I'd let him go play for a team that needs a man-style CB and try to nab someone in FA who might be a decently-reliable starter for a couple of seasons. A Cover-2 style player in the mold of a guy like Asante Samuel is the picture I have in my head. Offer that player a little less money than you'd offer Sean Smith and in 2 years replace him with whoever we've developed.

We can deal with Marshall the same way. The most important thing is that we get guys who fit the mold of what we want which is quickness and athleticism with reliable ball skills. Sean Smith is just not an ideal fit in this Cover-2 style of play.

It would do him best to be somewhere else and it would do us best to find a different set of skills.


What are Smith's stats this season. This just seems like made up stuff. You have no facts to support that Sean Smith doesn't work in the lineup.

Dont you think every team in the league would want a CB with 'quickness, atheleticism and reliable ball skills'? Everyone wouldn't want at least 1 Asante Samuel?

You telling me Smith would be good in zone because he can tackle or because of his quickness? I know the answer.

Seems like your opinion, hardly fact.


I don't know nor do I care what Sean Smith's stats are for the simple fact that no one has a good metric that I know of in judging CBs. Judging CBs involves watching the moves they make in real time, watching the mistakes they make and watching when the do it. It involves variables like opposing QBs, pass rush, opposing WRs....

...how are you going to get a metric that accurately accounts for all those things? You don't, you have general stats like INTs, Passes Broken Up, TDs, Plays over 20 yards....

...those are meaningless if you don't account for what is being seen on the field. I watch every game and I pay particular attention to individual players. I don't need to visit websites comprised of people just like me putting labels on what they're briefly looking at.

I watch, I think and I discuss this stuff every day. I contemplate lots of things involving other options and what problems the Dolphins have. I don't waste my time with misleading or otherwise generally useless data which may or may not support a more thorough discussion of a CB.

If you have stats on a QB or a DE then I have a little more respect for those numbers. For a CB though? There's just no proven metric that accounts for all the other play going on that influences what's happening.

The further away from the ball you get, the worse stats are in telling the story.


But, It's my opinion whether it's supported by facts or not.

If you don't agree, do it with ideas.

The whole point is that you don't have the right to chastise people when they disagree.

Come at me with a different vision of the team in a more respectful way and it's no problem.

Just insulting people, generally talking down to the forum and being condescending...now how is that necessary and how does it make things better?
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2240
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Clutch wrote:
phinmun wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .


It would help us a lot if we could get to the passer with our front 4 BUT we also need to recognize that the need is present for talent @ CB. Sean Smith is a smart player and a hard CB to beat in man coverage but we're not that type of defense quite frankly and so I think we'd do best to let him sign with another team instead of tying up our money in a guy that can't really fulfill his duties here, in this scheme.

Chris Clemson and Reshad Jones I like. I have faith in Marshall being decent and don't mind Jimmy Wilson as depth. We will need a young CB to develop but I'm thinking 3rd or 4th rounder who only sees limited action.

Rather than re-sign Sean Smith, I'd let him go play for a team that needs a man-style CB and try to nab someone in FA who might be a decently-reliable starter for a couple of seasons. A Cover-2 style player in the mold of a guy like Asante Samuel is the picture I have in my head. Offer that player a little less money than you'd offer Sean Smith and in 2 years replace him with whoever we've developed.

We can deal with Marshall the same way. The most important thing is that we get guys who fit the mold of what we want which is quickness and athleticism with reliable ball skills. Sean Smith is just not an ideal fit in this Cover-2 style of play.

It would do him best to be somewhere else and it would do us best to find a different set of skills.


What are Smith's stats this season. This just seems like made up stuff. You have no facts to support that Sean Smith doesn't work in the lineup.

Dont you think every team in the league would want a CB with 'quickness, atheleticism and reliable ball skills'? Everyone wouldn't want at least 1 Asante Samuel?

You telling me Smith would be good in zone because he can tackle or because of his quickness? I know the answer.

Seems like your opinion, hardly fact.


I don't know nor do I care what Sean Smith's stats are for the simple fact that no one has a good metric that I know of in judging CBs. Judging CBs involves watching the moves they make in real time, watching the mistakes they make and watching when the do it. It involves variables like opposing QBs, pass rush, opposing WRs....

...how are you going to get a metric that accurately accounts for all those things? You don't, you have general stats like INTs, Passes Broken Up, TDs, Plays over 20 yards....

...those are meaningless if you don't account for what is being seen on the field. I watch every game and I pay particular attention to individual players. I don't need to visit websites comprised of people just like me putting labels on what they're briefly looking at.

I watch, I think and I discuss this stuff every day. I contemplate lots of things involving other options and what problems the Dolphins have. I don't waste my time with misleading or otherwise generally useless data which may or may not support a more thorough discussion of a CB.

If you have stats on a QB or a DE then I have a little more respect for those numbers. For a CB though? There's just no proven metric that accounts for all the other play going on that influences what's happening.

The further away from the ball you get, the worse stats are in telling the story.


But, It's my opinion whether it's supported by facts or not.
If you don't agree, do it with ideas.

and

The whole point is that you don't have the right to chastise people when they disagree.

Come at me with a different vision of the team in a more respectful way and it's no problem.

Just insulting people, generally talking down to the forum and being condescending...now how is that necessary and how does it make things better?


Double standard: Bolded part 1. You can have an opinion, but others can't. We have to support comments with facts??

Never asked for you opinion. Stated what I read here and at other locations. Always following the Fins and their fans. Chastising no one. You jumped in like there was an attack. There wasn't. Stated facts, and showed you the facts from other threads.

'not coming at you'. Don't care what it said, I am stating what is being written. Could care less what you say.

Only time I was a Donkey to you was when you pretend to protect the forum. I just asked people to put the rooks/team in perspective. Not attacking anyone, well except you now. You have brought me to your level. I can see why others have gotten frusterated in past.

You seem like the kind of guy, and its posted by you, that it is a debate on everthing. Wasn't looking for a debate. Stating the obvious. Fins aren't happy with losing, neither are the fans. We are fickle with players. Sure opinions can change but then we wonder why the player we let leave has success in other organizations. Wes Welker, Jason Allen come to mind.

Not going to back down from that. I am sure we would all like to have a team that has no holes and that we don't have to spend as much time talking about college players as we would playoff matchups. Were not there yet. Discussing change is great, dealing with the highs and lows on a play by play basis is irrational.
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green4gulf


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2243
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO it comes down to the better talent between CB and DE. You take the better of the two available. If they grade out really close then it's character.

I'd also like to point out......it's often overlooked in our forum how essential coverage is to the pass rush. The two work hand in hand.....it's not a one sided coin......and right now, part of the reason our pass rush doesn't get enough pressure is because our pass coverage is poor.

There's not a lot your pass rush can do consistently against a 3 step drop, unless the pass coverage is taking away the routes.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green4gulf wrote:
IMO it comes down to the better talent between CB and DE. You take the better of the two available. If they grade out really close then it's character.

I'd also like to point out......it's often overlooked in our forum how essential coverage is to the pass rush. The two work hand in hand.....it's not a one sided coin......and right now, part of the reason our pass rush doesn't get enough pressure is because our pass coverage is poor.

There's not a lot your pass rush can do consistently against a 3 step drop, unless the pass coverage is taking away the routes.


I 100% agree that it's a functioning relationship where coverage and pass rush have to work together. Too often, if our pass rush doesn't get the sack, we're seeing one of our CBs (Smith included) giving up a crucial play.

Which is why I would bring in Brent Grimes or Tracy Porter who would both add more agility and quickness to our CB position than Smith.

However, we need to get a DE. There's NO WAY we're taking a CB in the 1st round. We cannot afford that when WR and DE are both needs that are more important and more in control of a games outcome.

The only pick on defense I would accept would be DE but I still think it would be a mistake not to address offense. We need a capable pass rusher from the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round which is why I think we'll target Carradine. He already plays RDE (opposite Wake) and is a natural 43 DE who wants to get up field and pressure the passer.

That way we could address WR in the 1st (I prefer Woods).

I'm fine with bringing back Smith but I'd prefer someone else who's more agile and who has a smaller frame (and with good hands). Smile
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Dolphin Dave


Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we really need to draft a DE high this year? Seems like Vernon is going to be ready to step into that role next season. I'm leaning more towards MLB, LT, CB, WR, & G in rounds 1-3 this year. I don't see us resigning Long and Dansby is way over paid for his production.
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PhinFan52


Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 4341
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Clutch wrote:
phinmun wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Good post and to add to it the steelers are another team that have never really invested in corners infact they have not drafted a early CB in a very long time. Its all about pass rush pass rush. Decent corners become better ones with a pass rush.. If there is a elite DE in top 10 i think we should take him and spend the rest of the draft on playmakers and G .


It would help us a lot if we could get to the passer with our front 4 BUT we also need to recognize that the need is present for talent @ CB. Sean Smith is a smart player and a hard CB to beat in man coverage but we're not that type of defense quite frankly and so I think we'd do best to let him sign with another team instead of tying up our money in a guy that can't really fulfill his duties here, in this scheme.

Chris Clemson and Reshad Jones I like. I have faith in Marshall being decent and don't mind Jimmy Wilson as depth. We will need a young CB to develop but I'm thinking 3rd or 4th rounder who only sees limited action.

Rather than re-sign Sean Smith, I'd let him go play for a team that needs a man-style CB and try to nab someone in FA who might be a decently-reliable starter for a couple of seasons. A Cover-2 style player in the mold of a guy like Asante Samuel is the picture I have in my head. Offer that player a little less money than you'd offer Sean Smith and in 2 years replace him with whoever we've developed.

We can deal with Marshall the same way. The most important thing is that we get guys who fit the mold of what we want which is quickness and athleticism with reliable ball skills. Sean Smith is just not an ideal fit in this Cover-2 style of play.

It would do him best to be somewhere else and it would do us best to find a different set of skills.


What are Smith's stats this season. This just seems like made up stuff. You have no facts to support that Sean Smith doesn't work in the lineup.

Dont you think every team in the league would want a CB with 'quickness, atheleticism and reliable ball skills'? Everyone wouldn't want at least 1 Asante Samuel?

You telling me Smith would be good in zone because he can tackle or because of his quickness? I know the answer.

Seems like your opinion, hardly fact.


I don't know nor do I care what Sean Smith's stats are for the simple fact that no one has a good metric that I know of in judging CBs. Judging CBs involves watching the moves they make in real time, watching the mistakes they make and watching when the do it. It involves variables like opposing QBs, pass rush, opposing WRs....

...how are you going to get a metric that accurately accounts for all those things? You don't, you have general stats like INTs, Passes Broken Up, TDs, Plays over 20 yards....

...those are meaningless if you don't account for what is being seen on the field. I watch every game and I pay particular attention to individual players. I don't need to visit websites comprised of people just like me putting labels on what they're briefly looking at.

I watch, I think and I discuss this stuff every day. I contemplate lots of things involving other options and what problems the Dolphins have. I don't waste my time with misleading or otherwise generally useless data which may or may not support a more thorough discussion of a CB.

If you have stats on a QB or a DE then I have a little more respect for those numbers. For a CB though? There's just no proven metric that accounts for all the other play going on that influences what's happening.

The further away from the ball you get, the worse stats are in telling the story.


But, It's my opinion whether it's supported by facts or not.

If you don't agree, do it with ideas.

The whole point is that you don't have the right to chastise people when they disagree.

Come at me with a different vision of the team in a more respectful way and it's no problem.

Just insulting people, generally talking down to the forum and being condescending...now how is that necessary and how does it make things better?


there used to be a site that had all kinds of stats.. like for CB it was thrown his way.. % he allows receiver to catch.. YAC allowed.. AVG allowed per catch.... and I will say Smith was one of the worst at AVG allowed per catch and towards the bottom ( on of the worst) at YAC allowed.. but that was last 2 seasons.. can't find site this season... is Smith bad ? No.. does he "suck" no.. but is he a top 5 CB ? No... and IMO we shouldn't overpay.....
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhinFan52 wrote:

there used to be a site that had all kinds of stats.. like for CB it was thrown his way.. % he allows receiver to catch.. YAC allowed.. AVG allowed per catch.... and I will say Smith was one of the worst at AVG allowed per catch and towards the bottom ( on of the worst) at YAC allowed.. but that was last 2 seasons.. can't find site this season... is Smith bad ? No.. does he "suck" no.. but is he a top 5 CB ? No... and IMO we shouldn't overpay.....



See, that's all nice, I'll admit but when judging a CB you have to account for whether he's up against Tom Brady or Mark Sanchez. You have to account for whether the QB is under pressure of whether he's standing untouched in the pocket. You have to account for whether he's covering Mike Wallace, Brandon Marshall or Davone Bess.

To me, it's way too situational which is why I'd prefer to judge a CB based on watching the guy play. I would say that about anyone, but especially Sean Smith where there might be certain stats that are highly misleading. I want to know how much I can trust someone and stats often don't tell you that.

Fortunately I've seen every one of Sean Smith's games and every pass thrown his way, both those he's defensed and those he's allowed as receptions.


I've come up against a lot of opposition that portrays what I'm saying incorrectly. My points have remained conservative and can be briefly summed up:

1.) This is his 4th season. He is what he is and projecting him as a guy who's about to break-out is just homer-istic hope.

2.) He has physical limitations which have displayed themselves since he was first drafted. He is not a complete CB nor does have the ability to be an elite CB.

3.) He's consistent in what he does whether it's something good or something bad.

Good:
Often in good position down the field.
Good in run support.
Good at deflecting the ball when in position to do so.

Bad:
Poor tackler in open space.
Very slow to recover when turned around.
Often late in turning to look for the ball when down the field.
Often unable to complete the catch when having the chance.


I've been surprised at how timid people are at calling this guy what he is: average. They say things like "well, maybe he's not elite, but..."

I mean, that's funny that people are almost scared to be honest in evaluating some players. It's like there are certain guys on this team who are above reproach in this forum because any critique of their play becomes a welcome invitation for bitter and often hostile responses.

I can talk crap about Davone Bess who's as clutch as they come yet any time I mention Wake missing a tackle, there's someone waiting to call me an idiot.

That's the sort of undercurrent here.

I for one would love to see each one of us honestly evaluate these guys as though they weren't Dolphin players. I think the opinions on a lot of these guys would be that they are all rather average and that very few are really capable of consistent, high-level production.

Those few might be Cameron Wake, Mike Pouncey...and that might be it. Dansby is very good. Bess is great but has an obvious ceiling. Long is good but it's been a rough adjustment with him. Bush has obvious ability but how you utilize it is a tough call.
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