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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhinFan52 wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Sean smith gave up 4 catches for 60 yards against buffalo and all i read was he sucks and needs to go, news flash i will take that game every week. There is truth it changes from week to week in this forum on players its annoying.


depends... was his guy thrown to 10-12 times ? or 4 ? .. plus giving up an avg of 15 yrds per catch isn't great.. a 1st down each catch.. did 1 or 2 of those come on 3rd down and keep a drive alive where they ended up scoring ? I like Smith.. don't think he sucks.. but IMO he's not elite


Would you rather sign Brent Grimes or Tracy Porter in FA for less money?

They both fit our defense better and wouldn't cost as much.

It's a win-win.

Let Sean Smith go play in a man-to-man secondary where he belongs and let us get the type of player we're actually looking for and at a better price, too.
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2239
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
PhinFan52 wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
Sean smith gave up 4 catches for 60 yards against buffalo and all i read was he sucks and needs to go, news flash i will take that game every week. There is truth it changes from week to week in this forum on players its annoying.


depends... was his guy thrown to 10-12 times ? or 4 ? .. plus giving up an avg of 15 yrds per catch isn't great.. a 1st down each catch.. did 1 or 2 of those come on 3rd down and keep a drive alive where they ended up scoring ? I like Smith.. don't think he sucks.. but IMO he's not elite


Would you rather sign Brent Grimes or Tracy Porter in FA for less money?

They both fit our defense better and wouldn't cost as much.

It's a win-win.

Let Sean Smith go play in a man-to-man secondary where he belongs and let us get the type of player we're actually looking for and at a better price, too.


You don't know that Grimes or Porter become available. You are making that stuff up. We can't debate that until they become FA's.

You don't know that they fit our scheme better. We don't know what scheme we will be running next season. We haven't even had a draft yet.

Thats not neccessarily a win win. You don't know what those players will ask for money or if they will be able to play next year. You have no clue. This is just made up stuff as your opinion.

Its on now. On like Donkey Kong.
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- "Who, I love Rich Camarillo." Quote from the Fish's play by play crew.
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2239
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Clutch wrote:


Not debating, not attacking. That is fact. As another poster put it 60 yards Smith gives up and its time to get a new sheriff.

Jake Long has given up 3 sacks this season, one of which I know was last weekend when the guy rushing Martin, Merrimen I believe, got the pressure, Tanne steps up and Jakes guy (who was well blocked) peels back towards the line of scrimmage and cleans up. Its a sack folks.

Sean Smith has probably had 90% great games. But because he hasn't caught the ball, he needs to take a paycut to stay here.

Jon Martin, no mention of him for the first few weeks, that is a good thing. Now he is being beaten on alot of plays. He is a rookie. It takes time. But alot of posters are saying we need 4 new olineman and for sure 3. Can tell you folks, annual turnover on the Oline doesn't build a strong Oline. Ova can possibly comment, maybe I am wrong. I would have thought, and have been told, that continuity is the key. Yes you need talent.

Hartline - Pro Bowl after 6 weeks, now what?

Wake - High Motor? Really Phinmun? How bout talented player. How bout that when the other team is up it is harder to get sacks because they dictate the playcalling. When the fins are in a lead, Wake becomes a bigger factor.

I'm going to stop. It is what it is. But I am not attacking a forum. This comes from Fins fans everywhere. Twitter, Herald, Sun S, Here.

You are right, opinions can change. But some of this is just emotional play to play talk. Others want to throw away talented players and then point at Welker etc and say why?

Carry on.



Let me try and put in perspective why you're wrong.

Look at what you just said:

"...90% good games..."

You just made that up. There's no stat behind that. There's no evidence. Why is it that you take your own opinion as fact?

The obvious answer would be that you're scared to have an open conversation on the topic for fear of what it might do: change your mind.

And what does it say when you state that you don't care what I think? 1) It's obviously a lie when you've taken time to respond and 2) it's just proves you're being stubborn and won't accept your own irrationality.

Now, if you go judge Sean Smith objectively, there's a good chance you won't say things like "90% good games." I watch this team rooting for each and every player to succeed but I'm not going to come in here and knowingly lie to highlight a lackluster player just because he's a Dolphin. To my eyes, Sean Smith has been nothing but average this year. That said, he's a good football player in many respects but his limitations make him a liability in this scheme. Look around the league at Cover-2 CBs and tell me how many of them look like Sean Smith. He is a good player, but he's nearly as out of place as Incognito.

I've made that claim but I've also backed it up with rational explanation. I've explained how his body-type leads to struggles against more agile WRs who get in and out of their breaks quicker. I've explained that while he has made good plays, he's also made more than his fair share of bad plays: He's given up TDs, he's given up crucial 3rd downs, he's done it against premier WRs and startlingly enough he's done it against no-name WRs even more.

If you don't agree with me, that's your right.

I have no problem with you disagreeing.

But then why is it that you're automatically right and I'm automatically wrong? You don't stop for a second to consider that you might actually be talking out your butt when you say "90% good games."


I can't debate stuff you're making up.

I can't argue these claims I haven't seen people make:

Hartline to the Pro-Bowl? When was that something we all agreed on?

4 New O-linemen? What?!


No one said those things. And then you act like I'm wrong for saying Wake has a "high-motor."

Well...does he not?



You're not making an argument as much as you're basically making this stuff up and then arguing against it like you're the only sane and rational person.

Talking like you're the only sane person posting is ironically the craziest thing in the world.


Who let you out dude? Seriously. LOL.

I get pissed off as much as the next guy. What I read here, and elsewhere, is that if a guy is having a bad game or season. It is time to run them out of town. Talented or not, they should be replaced.

Here are some pages for you to read:

Page 10 Bills/Fins game day.

Page 1 http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=504910&start=0 - is RyanT the guy

Start and finish with the Tracking Ryan Tannehill thread

And any mock that goes from Week 1 keeping Jake/Sean/Solai/Hartline to know having to replace those positions.

Look I know that upgrades have to be made. I know that there is a salary cap, all i am saying is that rookies need time to develop. Some longer than others. Some positions like Safety seem to take longer to understand than others (RB). But to throw guys to the wolves after one game or half a season isn't the way you build a great team.

And surely by throwing your best players away without having good players behind them is a way to stay an average team.

At the start of the season, if you go look at the 'predictions thread', most had the Fins winning between 4-8 games. After the first 1/4 of the season we seem to be a bounce or two from being 6-1. Expectations went up. Over the past three games it has all come crashing down to reality. So nothing has really changed.

This team is lacking talent at some key positions. But because our good players are linked to the bad ones, they get thrown into the heap. That doesn't make sense. Everyone knows we lack elite talent and depth at most, if not all, positions. Mocks are great, but when you take the core of this team and move it for nothing, you are spinning your wheels.

We need to hit on some of these picks and FA's. If you continue to have good draft classes, your succes on the field should reflect that.

This of course is my opinion. The facts provided are from other threads. I hope this is suitable for your Phinmun. I am not here to debate anything, just to show what is being read/posted in a nutshell. I believe we have awesome posters and differing opinions, which is great. What I am saying is why are we so 'high and low' after every play? Even keel, even keel.

Evaluate at the end of the season, not at the end of the first quarter.
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- "Who, I love Rich Camarillo." Quote from the Fish's play by play crew.
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green4gulf


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2105
Location: TN, by way of Palm Beach FL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhinFan52 wrote:
I get we "need" OG's and Jones would be a GREAT OG IMO and is doing well at C this season.. but Jones was a LT during.... Bama's National Championship season.. he did well against what some say will be 1st rd NFL picks.....
Jones was doing a phenomenal job of run blocking for Trent Richardson, and Alabama had a lot of success running behind Jones. He also wasn't getting help with LSU's speed rushers on the edge, and Jones was rock solid, not allowing a sack or pressure while going up against two future first-round pass rushers in Sam Montgomery and Barkevious Mingo.

Jones played well in the rematch for the national championship and capped off a phenomenal season

so really we could be drafting a LT and let Long go.. or .....
also... I'm a holdout.. I'm thinking we pick in the 16-20 range... Shocked


You make a great argument. Jones would certainly be an immediate upgrade at either OG position or could take over for Long and probably even be an upgrade there as well with Long's play as of late. Jones would be a safe pick vs a WR or a DE.....2 positions which are considered to have big learning curves from NCAA to NFL.

Besides all that, with todays salary structure for rookies teams may be more open to where they select what positions than they were in the past.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:


Who let you out dude? Seriously. LOL.

I get pissed off as much as the next guy. What I read here, and elsewhere, is that if a guy is having a bad game or season. It is time to run them out of town. Talented or not, they should be replaced.

Here are some pages for you to read:

Page 10 Bills/Fins game day.

Page 1 http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=504910&start=0 - is RyanT the guy

Start and finish with the Tracking Ryan Tannehill thread

And any mock that goes from Week 1 keeping Jake/Sean/Solai/Hartline to know having to replace those positions.

Look I know that upgrades have to be made. I know that there is a salary cap, all i am saying is that rookies need time to develop. Some longer than others. Some positions like Safety seem to take longer to understand than others (RB). But to throw guys to the wolves after one game or half a season isn't the way you build a great team.

And surely by throwing your best players away without having good players behind them is a way to stay an average team.

At the start of the season, if you go look at the 'predictions thread', most had the Fins winning between 4-8 games. After the first 1/4 of the season we seem to be a bounce or two from being 6-1. Expectations went up. Over the past three games it has all come crashing down to reality. So nothing has really changed.

This team is lacking talent at some key positions. But because our good players are linked to the bad ones, they get thrown into the heap. That doesn't make sense. Everyone knows we lack elite talent and depth at most, if not all, positions. Mocks are great, but when you take the core of this team and move it for nothing, you are spinning your wheels.

We need to hit on some of these picks and FA's. If you continue to have good draft classes, your succes on the field should reflect that.

This of course is my opinion. The facts provided are from other threads. I hope this is suitable for your Phinmun. I am not here to debate anything, just to show what is being read/posted in a nutshell. I believe we have awesome posters and differing opinions, which is great. What I am saying is why are we so 'high and low' after every play? Even keel, even keel.

Evaluate at the end of the season, not at the end of the first quarter.


I want many of our guys to stay such as Clemons @ FS, Hartline @ WR, Long @ LT, Tannehill @ QB, Starks @ DT, Martin @ RT....

Hartline has done a good job and while he lacks the speed to be a real difference-maker he's just too reliable to let go. He's done a great job earning a new contract.

Losing Long might be financially worthwhile but we just cannot afford to let it happen. With a rookie struggling at RT now, and with an obvious need for 2 new Guards, we can't afford to let Jake Long leave. It would just kill us. We have to hope that Long will adjust to the scheme and will benefit from better RG play moving forward. Continuity is always a win for us as well!

Clemons did a great job in coverage his first year and then lost a year to injury. He was part of a very good Clemson secondary and was rated as a 2nd round prospect by Mike Mayock who I trust. Clemons strength should be his willingness to tackle and his ability to get around the field in coverage. The fact he's not being allowed to display his ability leads me to think he's probably only going to start flashing when we get more pressure and more reliable CBs.

Martin is a quality prospect from a quality program and to harshly judge his struggles after 10 or so games in his rookie year is just plain dumb. Give him time to develop, he could be exactly what we've been looking for while having to watch Vernon Carey and Marc Columbo for too long.

Tannehill, c'mon, really? This dude's doing a great job and flashing an arm and a throwing ability I honestly didn't think he had.

Starks I just think is more valuable to us than Soliai. We should resign Starks and trade Soliai for whatever we can get. Soliai is strictly a run-stuffer and as a 4-3 DT he needs to be able to collapse the pocket as well as eat up space. He's really a 3-4 NT playing out of position. I think Starks & Odrick would be best for us but I could live with Odrick & Soliai considering they are good against the run and both young guys. I just think Soliai is too 1-dimensional for us.

...but I have good reason to believe a couple guys should go:

Reggie Bush

He is a runner. Not a RB. If you can't get him the ball consistently in space through dump-offs, screens and short routes, then you aren't utilizing his skills properly (Sherman). He is not a between-the-tackles runner. It was a mistake to look at him in that light. We need RBs who are more like Lamar Miller and the guy from Washington we saw last night. Big, physical, tough runners who are young enough to still have good speed. We need to be churning through young guys like that between rounds 3-6.

We need guys with enough speed to create big plays but enough size, strength and toughness to run inside and make the most of what's there when 3 or 4 yards is the max allowed. Bush is too small and not nearly powerful enough to be doing this. Again, he's a runner who's only dangerous in open space. Sherman has not displayed a desire to utilize Reggie Bush as anything more than a typical RB. This is a mistake on Sherman's behalf and if Sherman is going to treat the RBs like they're all the same, we might as well ditch Bush because he won't fit the mold of what we're asking him to do.

Square peg, round hole. Bush isn't going to be any better than Thomas or Miller if we continue to approach him and his skill in this way. Don't waste the money on re-signing him if you're not going to provide a special spot in the offense for a guy like that. The Saints did it to a certain degree but I believe at the end of the day Sean Peyton just didn't want to have to accommodate a single player and that's a smart decision so I respect Sherman if his goal is to focus nearly all the efforts on developing a dominant passing attack.

Bush is also limited in pass protection from what I can see as well.


Sean Smith:

I've said it before. The guy is smart and knows where to be but doesn't have the quickness to get there. He needs to be on a team like the Cowboys or Jets where big, physical CBs are part of the scheme. He does a good job holding elite WRs to average days but that's not what we want our CBs to do. Here, he has to cover areas of the field and can't always adjust to whoever the offense has lined him up against. His lack of clutch ability also makes me thinker he's ultimately a choker. I just don't see why we shouldn't go after Grimes or Porter as 2-3 year replacement while we develop someone else. I would take one of those guys with Richard Marshall of the Marshall/Smith duo we've seen some this year.


I won't be hurt if Bush or Smith come back. They're both good players. I just don't think we're going to do enough to accommodate Bush so it'd be useless and I think Smith it would make more sense for our defense to add a guy like Grimes or Porter who bring more agility to the position.

If our D features Jones, Clemons, Marshall and Porter/Grimes I think we'd only need to bring in one more player and that would be a draft pick @ DE such as Carridine. No 1st rounders. We need offense too badly.
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