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GoneWithTheWind


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
Klomp wrote:
Quote:
“@APkrawczynski: #Vikings GM Rick Spielman says he has "100% belief Ponder's going to be our QB heading into the future"”


Spielman: “I always have followed the three-year rule. The quarterback position — you’ve got to remember, our guy’s only in his second year. You look at the history of development of quarterbacks and I’ve talked to you guys a lot about that and where they come. I know they’re getting measured regardless if they’re a rookie or second-year player. They’re going to get evaluated from the outside and from the media on their performance that week. But you have to be, from an internal standpoint, looking at the whole picture and looking at a length of time.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/14/vikings-gm-spielman-ponder-is-our-guy/


I've always evaluated QBs on a three year plan as well because it's enough time for a QB to develop and there damn well better be some progress a serious evaluation should take place then. I think Ponder will be here long-term he's been in a slump but he is getting better and that's important. Hope he keeps it up.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Rotoworld:

"Jaguars coach Mike Mularkey announced at Monday's presser that Chad Henne will start in Week 12 'based on performance.'"
Blaine Gabbert is questionable with an elbow injury, but Mularkey made clear his decision was performance based. It's likely Mularkey would have lost the locker room had he stuck with sinking stone Gabbert, so the decision is anything but surprising. Joe Namath — or Joe Flacco — Henne is not, but as he proved Sunday, he can at least head a competitive offense, something Gabbert has failed at time and time again since being installed in 2011."

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4684/chad-henne


So the Jaguars have elected to start their backup QB even though they have invested in Gabbert the exact same way the Vikings have invested in Ponder. I am not saying this means we have to be playing Webb, but it's very interesting that another team is willing to make the tough call and bench their young franchise-hopeful QB based on performance.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
So the Jaguars have elected to start their backup QB even though they have invested in Gabbert the exact same way the Vikings have invested in Ponder. I am not saying this means we have to be playing Webb, but it's very interesting that another team is willing to make the tough call and bench their young franchise-hopeful QB based on performance.


Jaguars are 1-9. Vikings are 6-4 and in the playoff picture.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
So the Jaguars have elected to start their backup QB even though they have invested in Gabbert the exact same way the Vikings have invested in Ponder. I am not saying this means we have to be playing Webb, but it's very interesting that another team is willing to make the tough call and bench their young franchise-hopeful QB based on performance.


Jaguars are 1-9. Vikings are 6-4 and in the playoff picture.


Exactly. And not only that, despite how he performed in the opening game vs. the Vikings, Gabbert has not shown nearly the progression that Ponder has:

Ponder --> 206-316 (65.2%), 2,027 yds, 12 TDs, 8 INT, 85.2
Gabbert --> 162-278 (58.3%), 1,662 yds, 9 TDs, 6 INT, 77.4

The reality is that without those 2 sub-100 yd passing games by Ponder (Gabbert has 1 himself), I don't think anyone would even bring that up. Ponder has been far superior to what Gabbert has done to this point. Gabbert has shown little progress at all.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
The reality is that without those 2 sub-100 yd passing games by Ponder (Gabbert has 1 himself), I don't think anyone would even bring that up. Ponder has been far superior to what Gabbert has done to this point. Gabbert has shown little progress at all.


Plenty of posters on the General Board believe Gabbert is the superior QB, actually. I cannot say the same because, to me, they are almost mirrors of each other skill-wise. There is no way Ponder has been "far superior." What evidence supports this claim? The numbers you posted show they are not very far apart at all. In addition, the "without _______" argument never holds any water because it's ridiculous to simply toss events that actually happened aside. Why not ignore Ponder's best games, too, then? They can be considered just as anomalous as his bad games (more so, in plenty of people's opinions).
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Zephiel


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Half the people who are pro-Gabbert probably were the ones who said he was going to be the best QB in the draft two years ago and refuse to give up on him...

Wins aren't entirely a QB stat but they sure amplify the play of a QB. Ponder's team is 6-4 and Gabberts is 1-9...
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milanb


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
Klomp wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
So the Jaguars have elected to start their backup QB even though they have invested in Gabbert the exact same way the Vikings have invested in Ponder. I am not saying this means we have to be playing Webb, but it's very interesting that another team is willing to make the tough call and bench their young franchise-hopeful QB based on performance.


Jaguars are 1-9. Vikings are 6-4 and in the playoff picture.


Exactly. And not only that, despite how he performed in the opening game vs. the Vikings, Gabbert has not shown nearly the progression that Ponder has:

Ponder --> 206-316 (65.2%), 2,027 yds, 12 TDs, 8 INT, 85.2
Gabbert --> 162-278 (58.3%), 1,662 yds, 9 TDs, 6 INT, 77.4

The reality is that without those 2 sub-100 yd passing games by Ponder (Gabbert has 1 himself), I don't think anyone would even bring that up. Ponder has been far superior to what Gabbert has done to this point. Gabbert has shown little progress at all.


I agree that Ponder has been better than Gabbert so far, but "far superior" is stretching it, a lot.

It's really hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison because Gabbert didn't have the luxury of a lot of easy five-yard screens to Percy, who happens to lead the league in YAC. Gabbert has had to throw the ball down the field into tight windows a lot, with shaky pass protection around him.

It's also really not the case that Ponder has had two bad games and eight good ones. It's more like he's had four good games, all of them games where he faced essentially no pass rush and had wide-open receivers on the underneath routes. We're ten games into the season and I don't think Ponder has completed more than about four passes where the ball travelled more than 20 yards in the air. The out patterns that Ponder struggled with last year have mostly been removed from the playbook.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've seen of both QBs, I still do think "far superior" is the appropriate term, but I understand if you do not agree. I watched Gabbert's entire career at Mizzou, and I have never been impressed with him at any point (so maybe that's where I'm a little biased).
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be very surprised if either of them is a starting QB three years from now.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I will be very surprised if either of them is a starting QB three years from now.


We'll probably both still be here, so I'll make sure to refer back to this thread then. Laughing
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
milanb wrote:
I will be very surprised if either of them is a starting QB three years from now.


We'll probably both still be here, so I'll make sure to refer back to this thread then. Laughing


Well, you understand the numbers as well as I do.

It's unusual for any draft class to produce more than two QBs who are legitimate starters five years down the road. The 2004 draft class is viewed as exceptional because it produced four.

The 2011 class looks mediocre at best compared to other recent QB classes. Once you get past Cam Newton, none of these guys looks like a sure thing, and even Newton has a ways to go before he can be considered among the sport's elite.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with that...all we need to do is reference the 1999 draft. That draft was supposed to be the greatest draft of QBs since '83 with 5 QBs going in the 1st rd. The only QBs left 5 years later were McNabb and Culpepper.

However, I do think that generally over the last 5 years, teams have done a significantly better job drafting QBs in the 1st rd than they have in the past. Since that brutal '07 draft of Russell and Quinn, here's who have been drafted:

2008 - Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco
2009 - Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman
2010 - Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow
2011 - Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder
2012 - Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden

While it's certainly difficult to gauge the definite future status of the QBs drafted the last 2 years, it does appear that 3 of the 8 are definite locks (outside of injury) to still be starting 3 years from now (Newton, Luck, RG III), 3 more have a decent chance, although they could go either way (Locker, Ponder, Tannehill), and the other 2 are shaky at best (Gabbert, Weeden).

Of the QBs drafted those other 3 years, most have been good QBs and probably will still be starting 3 years from now, outside of the 2 currently in NY.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just floating this out there. Didn't want to start another thread or anything but, how do Vikings fans feel about Vick as their starter in 2013 vs Christian Ponder?

Maybe I should give this a few more weeks since you're now 6-4, and Ponder isn't costing you all games right now. And there is a chance for him to go in one extremely positive or negative direction the rest of the way

But just seems to be that could be a perfect fit with a healthy AD.

Seems like the style of offense that suits Vick's game far more than the pass happy Eagles, and playing in a dome for half the year would be more suitable for his game as well especially in a home playoff game. (Vick's 3 playoff losses all at Lincoln Financial field in the cold)

Also the factor of Vick not having a 100 million dollar contract means he could play at a much higher level. (He's got 70% win percentage without one , 45% with one)
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
Just floating this out there. Didn't want to start another thread or anything but, how do Vikings fans feel about Vick as their starter in 2013 vs Christian Ponder?

Maybe I should give this a few more weeks since you're now 6-4, and Ponder isn't costing you all games right now. And there is a chance for him to go in one extremely positive or negative direction the rest of the way

But just seems to be that could be a perfect fit with a healthy AD.

Seems like the style of offense that suits Vick's game far more than the pass happy Eagles, and playing in a dome for half the year would be more suitable for his game as well especially in a home playoff game. (Vick's 3 playoff losses all at Lincoln Financial field in the cold)

Also the factor of Vick not having a 100 million dollar contract means he could play at a much higher level. (He's got 70% win percentage without one , 45% with one)


Not a chance of happening. The Vikings wont replace a young QB who has shown upside with an old QB who is clearly declining. It just wouldnt make sense.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
BBIB wrote:
Just floating this out there. Didn't want to start another thread or anything but, how do Vikings fans feel about Vick as their starter in 2013 vs Christian Ponder?

Maybe I should give this a few more weeks since you're now 6-4, and Ponder isn't costing you all games right now. And there is a chance for him to go in one extremely positive or negative direction the rest of the way

But just seems to be that could be a perfect fit with a healthy AD.

Seems like the style of offense that suits Vick's game far more than the pass happy Eagles, and playing in a dome for half the year would be more suitable for his game as well especially in a home playoff game. (Vick's 3 playoff losses all at Lincoln Financial field in the cold)

Also the factor of Vick not having a 100 million dollar contract means he could play at a much higher level. (He's got 70% win percentage without one , 45% with one)


Not a chance of happening. The Vikings wont replace a young QB who has shown upside with an old QB who is clearly declining. It just wouldnt make sense.


LOL I'll put you in the category of "give it a few more weeks"

I'm just saying your schedule down the stretch could be brutal leading to a 1-5 type finish.

We'll see where Ponder stands good or bad then in terms of that upside.

It could again go in either direction. Either very high after surviving that very difficult schedule, or the not so much category
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