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Kevin Williams having a late career surge?
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freakout wrote:
Well they signed Remi Adoyele, who turned out to be a bust.

The past season Fraizer and Alan Williams sold Spielman on the notion that Guion could play the NT position. Which has been a bad idea.

That doesn't sound like an organization not wanting to address the DT position.


That's a rather pathetic attempt at addressing a "need," wouldn't you say?

Remi Ayodele was brought in as Pat Williams' (hopeful) 2-down replacement. The deal was far from lucrative or lengthy. Whether they sold anything to anyone or not, the point is, the organization stayed in-house to address the position with a former mid-late round draft pick.

Maybe I'm seeing things drastically different from everyone, but I hardly see any legitimate attempt at bolstering the DT position from the front office - and in my opinion, with good reason. There are 10 other defensive positions that, to me, hold more value in today's NFL.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
Freakout wrote:
Well they signed Remi Adoyele, who turned out to be a bust.

The past season Fraizer and Alan Williams sold Spielman on the notion that Guion could play the NT position. Which has been a bad idea.

That doesn't sound like an organization not wanting to address the DT position.


That's a rather pathetic attempt at addressing a "need," wouldn't you say?

Remi Ayodele was brought in as Pat Williams' (hopeful) 2-down replacement. The deal was far from lucrative or lengthy. Whether they sold anything to anyone or not, the point is, the organization stayed in-house to address the position with a former mid-late round draft pick.

Maybe I'm seeing things drastically different from everyone, but I hardly see any legitimate attempt at bolstering the DT position from the front office - and in my opinion, with good reason. There are 10 other defensive positions that, to me, hold more value in today's NFL.


If such is true, why would players like NKONG Suh, Nick Fairley, Gerald McCoy, Marcel Dareus* and others be drafted so highly recently?

I think DT is a very valuable position to have. Just because we haven't pursued a big name recently does not mean there is no value in taking a DT in general.
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ArcticNorseman


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

K-Will is playing exceptionally well for a number of reasons . . . first his health is good, and of course it's a contract year. He doesn't have the distractions of the past lingering in the back of his head . . . and I think he's finally getting over losing Big Pat next to him.

That said the Vikes should re-sign him. Hopefully, he takes a bit of a cut, kind of like K-sass did and it allows him to retire a Viking.

As for the points about how important DT is for the Vikes . . . I think the rotation they have and the depth is very good -- not supremely elite, but very good. As much as some have commented that Guion is not good, I disagree, but I think he'll get better.

I actually love the 3rd and long line set up of Robison, Williams, Griffen and Allen . . . but I'm not convinced Griffen would hold up in K-Wills spot next to Jared - It's sure fun to watch them bear teeth and go though Wink .

There are six games to go and it wouldn't surprise me to see K-Will post 1 sack per game average, along with some great run stuffs. And if he's doing that along with Robison, Allen and Griffen doing their thing, the defense should play well as the season winds down.

Hopefully, he doesn't demand too much, because frankly, he knows this team is close again . . . and his window is short & he'll be competing against Harvin for the big signing bonus -- uh, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Laughing
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Williams is resigned, the only true need i see up front is a big bodied space eater to replace Guion. seems like Williams is at his best with a player next to him in the 1 technique or over the Center occupying double teams.
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
If such is true, why would players like NKONG Suh, Nick Fairley, Gerald McCoy, Marcel Dareus* and others be drafted so highly recently?

I think DT is a very valuable position to have. Just because we haven't pursued a big name recently does not mean there is no value in taking a DT in general.


Exactly my point.

How have the Lions done with the additions of Suh and Fairley? Good, but not because of them. They have offensive pieces in key positions. Suh's rookie season was beyond tremendous - in present time, he's displaying why you don't take a DT as high as Detroit did. They can only affect games so much from their positions, regardless of how gifted or talented they may be.

McCoy's been a flat bust, but could be semi-justified (at the time) given his ability to effectively be a 1-gap penetrator at the NFL level. Suffice it to say, that still hasn't worked out for Tampa - as evidenced by his 7 career sacks.

Marcell Dareus was drafted because of his ability to play 5-tech in what used to be a pretty strict variation of a base 3-4 in Buffalo. Different situation, not a true DT.

You have me wrong if you think I'm advocating the DT position be stricken from the depth chart or anything. I'm simply saying in the modern day NFL, you don't need to place significant value on the position, not do you really even need to place any more importance on it than you would any other regular position of need.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
If such is true, why would players like NKONG Suh, Nick Fairley, Gerald McCoy, Marcel Dareus* and others be drafted so highly recently?

I think DT is a very valuable position to have. Just because we haven't pursued a big name recently does not mean there is no value in taking a DT in general.


Exactly my point.

How have the Lions done with the additions of Suh and Fairley? Good, but not because of them. They have offensive pieces in key positions. Suh's rookie season was beyond tremendous - in present time, he's displaying why you don't take a DT as high as Detroit did. They can only affect games so much from their positions, regardless of how gifted or talented they may be.

McCoy's been a flat bust, but could be semi-justified (at the time) given his ability to effectively be a 1-gap penetrator at the NFL level. Suffice it to say, that still hasn't worked out for Tampa - as evidenced by his 7 career sacks.

Marcell Dareus was drafted because of his ability to play 5-tech in what used to be a pretty strict variation of a base 3-4 in Buffalo. Different situation, not a true DT.

You have me wrong if you think I'm advocating the DT position be stricken from the depth chart or anything. I'm simply saying in the modern day NFL, you don't need to place significant value on the position, not do you really even need to place any more importance on it than you would any other regular position of need.


DT is rarely a position that you hear about in games, but that doesn't diminish its importance. You hardly ever heard Pat's name called during games, but that doesn't mean he wasn't important. A DT that can cause double teams will free up Jared and Brian on the edge. A DT that penetrates doesn't allow a quarterback to step up into a clean pocket. A good DT clogs up the interior offensive linemen so that the MLB can fly to the quarterback.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
DT is rarely a position that you hear about in games, but that doesn't diminish its importance. You hardly ever heard Pat's name called during games, but that doesn't mean he wasn't important. A DT that can cause double teams will free up Jared and Brian on the edge. A DT that penetrates doesn't allow a quarterback to step up into a clean pocket. A good DT clogs up the interior offensive linemen so that the MLB can fly to the quarterback.

that was certainly true in the 70's with the Purple People Eater defense, as you rarely heard Gary Larsen's named called. but it was his anchoring of the line's center and denying the interior rushing ability of teams, that created and allowed the ferocious pash rush we had in those days.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
If such is true, why would players like NKONG Suh, Nick Fairley, Gerald McCoy, Marcel Dareus* and others be drafted so highly recently?

I think DT is a very valuable position to have. Just because we haven't pursued a big name recently does not mean there is no value in taking a DT in general.


Exactly my point.

How have the Lions done with the additions of Suh and Fairley? Good, but not because of them. They have offensive pieces in key positions. Suh's rookie season was beyond tremendous - in present time, he's displaying why you don't take a DT as high as Detroit did. They can only affect games so much from their positions, regardless of how gifted or talented they may be.

McCoy's been a flat bust, but could be semi-justified (at the time) given his ability to effectively be a 1-gap penetrator at the NFL level. Suffice it to say, that still hasn't worked out for Tampa - as evidenced by his 7 career sacks.

Marcell Dareus was drafted because of his ability to play 5-tech in what used to be a pretty strict variation of a base 3-4 in Buffalo. Different situation, not a true DT.

You have me wrong if you think I'm advocating the DT position be stricken from the depth chart or anything. I'm simply saying in the modern day NFL, you don't need to place significant value on the position, not do you really even need to place any more importance on it than you would any other regular position of need.


I just can't agree with you.

Perhaps because its not the "sexy" position, people don't think its important, but lineman do most of the dirty work and normally get the least amount of respect.

Teams draft these guys highly because they feel they can become game changers, but not the kind of gamechanger that will throw a 60 yard rainbow, or jump a WR's route for a pick six, but will rather put their team in a position to make a big play.

There is obvious value in the position, as you can't just put in scrubs and expect to see absolutely no difference from HOF players. But these guys can get into QBs faces, scare them a little, and throw off their passing time. That, can lead to those big time plays.

you can agree to disagree, but I see a lot of value in taking a DT early.
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VikeADunn


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:

McCoy's been a flat bust


Tell that to the Bucs fans on here...

They think he's their MVP this year
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald McCoy has been very good this year, much better than Suh.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Gerald McCoy has been very good this year, much better than Suh.


4th rd pick Geno Atkins is better than both. Interesting how that works sometimes.
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LostRoadStone


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Gerald McCoy has been very good this year, much better than Suh.

I'd still take Suh over McCoy.
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
DT is rarely a position that you hear about in games, but that doesn't diminish its importance. You hardly ever heard Pat's name called during games, but that doesn't mean he wasn't important. A DT that can cause double teams will free up Jared and Brian on the edge. A DT that penetrates doesn't allow a quarterback to step up into a clean pocket. A good DT clogs up the interior offensive linemen so that the MLB can fly to the quarterback.


Rarely hearing about a defensive tackle is hardly why I'm saying it's a position with little value in comparison to other defensive spots. There's a reason why Pat Williams wasn't brought back on short term when his contract with the team ended because a 1-2 down player such as himself is near-useless to a defense given the way offenses are run in today's NFL. Explaining the benefits of what "X-type" of DT can do isn't my point here - there's a very obvious reason why 4-3 team's don't heavily invest in the position. It doesn't affect games in the way other positions do, because historically the primary function of an interior defensive lineman is to protect A and B gap runs.


SteelKing728 wrote:
I just can't agree with you.

Perhaps because its not the "sexy" position, people don't think its important, but lineman do most of the dirty work and normally get the least amount of respect.

Teams draft these guys highly because they feel they can become game changers, but not the kind of gamechanger that will throw a 60 yard rainbow, or jump a WR's route for a pick six, but will rather put their team in a position to make a big play.

There is obvious value in the position, as you can't just put in scrubs and expect to see absolutely no difference from HOF players. But these guys can get into QBs faces, scare them a little, and throw off their passing time. That, can lead to those big time plays.

you can agree to disagree, but I see a lot of value in taking a DT early.


That's fine, I'd completely encourage you continue arguing against my point if you feel as strongly about the topic as I do. I feel we have the most quality posters of any team-forum on the site, so I don't mind spirited debates in Valhalla.

I never said "lineman," I said defensive tackles. The topic of lineman (on both sides of the football) not getting due respect is a cliche that any normal, educated football fan realizes is a farce. Nobody is saying trench warfare is forgotten about nowadays.

Correction - team's incorrectly draft defensive tackles highly because they feel they can be game changing players. From 2007 Amobi Okoye (No. 10 overall) was a tremendous projection as a 4-3 base 1-gap penetrator. Had one good season when he was exclusively rushing the quarterback, flopped out afterwards and was overwhelmed easily. Adam Carriker (No. 13 overall), viewed as a complete DT with size who could hit home on pressure at 'Braska - spent three years, playing only two seasons in St. Louis, accumulating two sacks..both of which came as a rookie. Then was traded to WAS as part of a swap of 5th and 7th round picks. Packers took Justin Harrell (No. 16 overall) Yeah... no need to go into detail there. In 2008, Glenn Dorsey (No. 5 overall) played only one year as a 4-3 base DT and was wildly ineffective, reaching the QB one time after his LSU career was markedly based on his ability to affect the passing game. Sedrick Ellis (No. 7 overall) a really, really fine player - and still not able to justify his draft position, has not "changed games." 2010 saw the Falcons add Peria Jerry (No. 24 overall) - started 15 of a possible 44 games in the NFL and has only 2.0 sacks...both of which coming in 2010 when he did not start a game as was exclusively playing in a pass rushing role. Surprise, surprise. 2011 was the year of the DT, to most. Lions took Suh (No. 2 overall), who had a tremendous rookie season. However, Suh's performance since then has been relatively unimpressive and I don't know any non-Lions fan (or Lions fan for that matter) who would vehemently argue otherwise. Gerald McCoy went No. 4 and although he's playing significantly better than he ever has through his three year NFL career, would anyone other than a hopeful Bucs fan say his top 5 selection was justified? No, no they would not. And in all seriousness, McCoy hasn't been all that fantastic this year either. He's improved slightly as a pass rusher and remained even-keeled as a run defender. Both teams would have benefited significantly from selecting Joe Haden - a player with much more positional value and much more ability to "change games." Tyson Alualu has been a relatively productive, active 3-tech but nobody is claiming he was a big hit for the risk the Jaguars took in selecting him in the top 10. Nobody. Especially when you take into consideration they passed on pro bowl safety Earl Thomas and all pro end Jason Pierre-Paul - both of which have far more positional value and ability to impact games from their respective positions. I'll leave 2011 and 2012 alone for now, but aside from Fletcher Cox.

I'm not suggesting you can put in 'scrubs' and expect similar results to that of say Geno Atkins - widely regarded as the league's best base 4-3 rusher (2011 2nd team All-Pro - who deserved to be 1st team - and tops Peter King's mid-season All Pro ranks at the DT spot). What I am suggesting, to take a term out of the baseball dictionary, is you can roll with replacement level players and not be horrifically exposed. I don't know that you can say Letroy Guion, Fred Evans are anything better than average or decent at best, yet both have started at least a game this season. You don't need great defensive tackles to win. We've been spoiled in Minnesota, seeing what the Williams' Wall enabled us to do against good NFL rushing offenses. That's not the way the league is anymore, and it's changing more and more annually - not to mention when Chip Kelly arrives next season.

EDIT: Yeesh, pardon the lack of spacing. Essays are only meant to be done in school.
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VikeADunn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Purple-Pride07, essays definitely are made for school Laughing
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikeADunn wrote:
Yes Purple-Pride07, essays definitely are made for school Laughing


Well I hope you still read it. Get educated, dammit! Wink
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