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How much more do you need to see from Josh Freeman?
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floppyflaps


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
floppyflaps wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
floppyflaps wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
Special Teamer wrote:
Didn't he have a pretty good stat on 4 quarter comebacks a few years back? I think that alone shows he has what it takes but I agree with FourThreeMafia. Consistency.


If you look at who they were against, it actually hurts him as if he were a top 10 QB, he wouldn't have had his team down in the first place. That was a huge part of my argument all of the 2010 off-season -- put his numbers in context and it paints a very different picture.


Yet people forget that the 2010 Buccaneers basically had an expansion team level of talent.

They started 2 rookie WRs, one picked in the 2nd round and one picked in the 4th. They had an undrafted rookie at RB. The defense stunk, one of the worst rushing defenses in the league.


Man, revisionist history is a wonderful thing. It's funny how in 2010 that "undrafted rookie" and "4th round WR" were being pimped as future stars. Now in 2012 it's "oh, well they weren't that good".

All that being said, my point still stands -- Freeman's season was very much overrated and I went into much detail several times to show why exactly that was.


If he just beat up on crappy teams, then why don't other QBs with weak schedules have a top 10 all time TD-INT ratio in those seasons? They probably have more established weapons than a bunch of lowly drafted rookies and a terrible defense.


Strawman argument.


Do you even know what a strawman is? I'll give you an example because it seems as though you're using concepts you don't know to avoid having to defend your argument. Earlier in the thread I mentioned that Freeman had low round rookies as his skill position players, and then your counterargument to that was how everyone back then thought that they were the next big thing. That's a strawman.

On the other hand, your premise is that Freeman had a good year simply because he had an easy schedule. I made the comment that many good QBs with established skilled players don't have seasons like those. If I said that Freeman was a good QB solely because of that, that would be a strawman, but as a defense against your argument it isn't.
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

floppyflaps wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
floppyflaps wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
floppyflaps wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
Special Teamer wrote:
Didn't he have a pretty good stat on 4 quarter comebacks a few years back? I think that alone shows he has what it takes but I agree with FourThreeMafia. Consistency.


If you look at who they were against, it actually hurts him as if he were a top 10 QB, he wouldn't have had his team down in the first place. That was a huge part of my argument all of the 2010 off-season -- put his numbers in context and it paints a very different picture.


Yet people forget that the 2010 Buccaneers basically had an expansion team level of talent.

They started 2 rookie WRs, one picked in the 2nd round and one picked in the 4th. They had an undrafted rookie at RB. The defense stunk, one of the worst rushing defenses in the league.


Man, revisionist history is a wonderful thing. It's funny how in 2010 that "undrafted rookie" and "4th round WR" were being pimped as future stars. Now in 2012 it's "oh, well they weren't that good".

All that being said, my point still stands -- Freeman's season was very much overrated and I went into much detail several times to show why exactly that was.


If he just beat up on crappy teams, then why don't other QBs with weak schedules have a top 10 all time TD-INT ratio in those seasons? They probably have more established weapons than a bunch of lowly drafted rookies and a terrible defense.


Strawman argument.


Do you even know what a strawman is? I'll give you an example because it seems as though you're using concepts you don't know to avoid having to defend your argument. Earlier in the thread I mentioned that Freeman had low round rookies as his skill position players, and then your counterargument to that was how everyone back then thought that they were the next big thing. That's a strawman.

On the other hand, your premise is that Freeman had a good year simply because he had an easy schedule. I made the comment that many good QBs with established skilled players don't have seasons like those. If I said that Freeman was a good QB solely because of that, that would be a strawman, but as a defense against your argument it isn't.


You implied that his supporting cast wasn't very good due to their draft status. I pointed out that during 2010, they were very much hyped. That is not a strawman, that is a counter argument -- both arguing the quality of his supporting cast.

My premise (which apparently you don't quite understand) is that looked better as a QB than he truly was due to his inflating his stats against bad teams (and there were more due to the easy schedule) however, when he faced quality teams, he did not play very well. I'm not arguing that he did not have a good season, he most certainly did -- but when put into context, you could very much see the reasons for that type of season -- that he took advantage of a very favorable schedule. Which, again, is all fine and dandy -- but it does not make him the top 10 QB that people were crowning him to be after that 1 season. Your counter to that is "Hey, he had a top 10 all time TD:INT season" -- which addresses nothing to do with my argument that his great season, when put into context, doesn't make him the QB people claimed he was and that the season itself isn't as impressive as it appears on the surface. It's akin to an argument "Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino because he has a ring" and then me arguing "actually, if you put that SB ring into context, Trent Dilfer is not nearly the QB that the ring makes him appear on the surface". The only difference being that people already KNOW the context of Dilfer's win, whereas with Freeman, not many people took the time to dive into it and see the trends -- they just look at the surface.

So, I appreciate your attempted lesson, but I have a firm grasp on a strawman just fine -- it just seems as though you don't quite comprehend the argument that you're defending against and thus are indeed arguing a strawman -- that he DID have a great season, whereas I'm most certainly not arguing against that point.
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crabbylion


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

texans_uk wrote:
I think he is a top 15 QB who had a tough sophomore season.


Strongest statement in this thread thus far.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how much credibility does the comeback yesterday buy him?
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boondock


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
So how much credibility does the comeback yesterday buy him?


Not too much because it was the Panthers. Everyone has came back on the Panthers. Not to mention, Doug Martin got going when the Bucs turned it around.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
So how much credibility does the comeback yesterday buy him?


Not that much, but he did help my fantasy team so I'm happy with it.
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Django


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is anyone else SHOCKED...

that he has more Tds and less ints than Matt Ryan?
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Arrowhead86


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter King put this out there on Freeman today in his MMQB:

Quote:
The Deep End

Each week, thanks to play-by-play game dissection by ProFootballFocus.com, I'll look at one important matchup or individual performance metric from one of the Sunday games.

Since their 1-3 start, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers have gone 5-1 and averaged 34 points a game in doing so. On the face of it Josh Freeman's 94.6 quarterback rating and 21-7 touchdown-to-interception differential seem to indicate a substantial reason for the turnabout, but that would be too simple; Freeman's season (and his performance here) has been far more enigmatic than that.

Going deep. Freeman is a very good deep passer who has been aided hugely in that regard by the offseason acquisition of Vincent Jackson. Before this game only Joe Flacco threw deep (more than 20 yards downfield) more frequently; 17.8 percent of passes for Flacco, 15.4 percent for Freeman. But it hasn't just been quantity. Freeman's 838 yards on deep passes leads the NFL, and he'd thrown four touchdowns without being picked off entering Sunday's game in Carolina. Through 10 weeks of the season, he'd been the best deep passer in the league.

The short game. He struggles on shorter throws. When he has to read linebackers in coverage and when the space is condensed, his passer rating drops from 125.6 on those deep throws to 86.2 on throws between zero and nine yards. Compare this with Peyton Manning, who rates 95.8 on deep throws but 115.9 on those same underneath passes.

Game on the line. Freeman continued with his problems in the short game in Charlotte (rating of 73.7, including a bad interception for a pick-6) but also initially couldn't find his targets when passing deep. Of his six passes over 20 yards, the first five were either incomplete or intercepted. However, as is often the case with Freeman, with the game on the line he then made the last one count, finding Vincent Jackson with a laser in the end zone for the score, which would eventually take the game into overtime. There he completed all three of his OT passes, including the game-winning touchdown to Dallas Clark.

Freeman deserves tremendous credit for elevating his game, with the arrival of trusted veterans like Clark and Jackson. The Buccaneers have already exceeded most expectations and can go even further this season ... but Freeman's play is not without flaws. If he is to take the next step as one of the game's best quarterbacks, he needs to clean up his short game and become more efficient between zero and nine yards.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/11/19/week-11/index.html#ixzz2ChH2Hh8t


Curious why his numbers on short throws take such a dip? Interesting for sure. I follow Freeman a bit because he went to my HS (albeit about 14 years after me ha) so it's nice to see the local kid doing so good overall. Still really young with time to get better.

To answer the OP: I need to see playoff performances.
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrowhead86 wrote:
Peter King put this out there on Freeman today in his MMQB:

Quote:
The Deep End

Each week, thanks to play-by-play game dissection by ProFootballFocus.com, I'll look at one important matchup or individual performance metric from one of the Sunday games.

Since their 1-3 start, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers have gone 5-1 and averaged 34 points a game in doing so. On the face of it Josh Freeman's 94.6 quarterback rating and 21-7 touchdown-to-interception differential seem to indicate a substantial reason for the turnabout, but that would be too simple; Freeman's season (and his performance here) has been far more enigmatic than that.

Going deep. Freeman is a very good deep passer who has been aided hugely in that regard by the offseason acquisition of Vincent Jackson. Before this game only Joe Flacco threw deep (more than 20 yards downfield) more frequently; 17.8 percent of passes for Flacco, 15.4 percent for Freeman. But it hasn't just been quantity. Freeman's 838 yards on deep passes leads the NFL, and he'd thrown four touchdowns without being picked off entering Sunday's game in Carolina. Through 10 weeks of the season, he'd been the best deep passer in the league.

The short game. He struggles on shorter throws. When he has to read linebackers in coverage and when the space is condensed, his passer rating drops from 125.6 on those deep throws to 86.2 on throws between zero and nine yards. Compare this with Peyton Manning, who rates 95.8 on deep throws but 115.9 on those same underneath passes.

Game on the line. Freeman continued with his problems in the short game in Charlotte (rating of 73.7, including a bad interception for a pick-6) but also initially couldn't find his targets when passing deep. Of his six passes over 20 yards, the first five were either incomplete or intercepted. However, as is often the case with Freeman, with the game on the line he then made the last one count, finding Vincent Jackson with a laser in the end zone for the score, which would eventually take the game into overtime. There he completed all three of his OT passes, including the game-winning touchdown to Dallas Clark.

Freeman deserves tremendous credit for elevating his game, with the arrival of trusted veterans like Clark and Jackson. The Buccaneers have already exceeded most expectations and can go even further this season ... but Freeman's play is not without flaws. If he is to take the next step as one of the game's best quarterbacks, he needs to clean up his short game and become more efficient between zero and nine yards.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/11/19/week-11/index.html#ixzz2ChH2Hh8t


Curious why his numbers on short throws take such a dip? Interesting for sure. I follow Freeman a bit because he went to my HS (albeit about 14 years after me ha) so it's nice to see the local kid doing so good overall. Still really young with time to get better.

To answer the OP: I need to see playoff performances.


I did not know he was 6 months younger than Ryan Tannehill...
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me like he's playing to the scheme and the weapons more than anything. In 2011 he completed 70.9% in the 1-10 yard range; 69.7% in 2010. So it's not like he's always been wildly inaccurate in the short game.
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indifference


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boondock wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
So how much credibility does the comeback yesterday buy him?


Not too much because it was the Panthers. Everyone has came back on the Panthers. Not to mention, Doug Martin got going when the Bucs turned it around.
Doug Martin didn't get it going until it was overtime. That 11 point comeback was all on #5 and his arm.
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indifference wrote:
boondock wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
So how much credibility does the comeback yesterday buy him?


Not too much because it was the Panthers. Everyone has came back on the Panthers. Not to mention, Doug Martin got going when the Bucs turned it around.
Doug Martin didn't get it going until it was overtime. That 11 point comeback was all on #5 and his arm.

Yup. During those last two drives in regulation we didn't call a single run and Martin only had one catch for 6 yards.
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