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I hate to be the Debbie Downer..but it's time to shift focus
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
Flip side of the coin...and one I don't think you are going due consideration to.....is are there other options in FA that are greater and cheaper?

It is easy to say a given player, like Sean Smith isn't worth his asking price, but facts are his worth is determined by the market and logic ditactes any cheaper option won't be as good. Ditto on any other player from starks to fasano.

Face it, some of these players are going to have to be extended even if there aren't who we want to have for the future.



1.) You can pay for an above-average CB in FA most years.

2.) You can pay for a mediocre, average, fill-in CB in FA most years.

It feels like to me Sean Smith is giving us production only a little above #2 and will be rewarded with money erring on the side of #1.

If that's the case, the smart man is going to let him walk and start developing some other solid option who might not be quite as reliable but certainly won't be over-paid.

I'll be happy either way. My point of contention has been that we woefully over-rate Sean Smith's abilities and consistency in this forum to the point that a guy very near average is being looked at as far better than that.

He has limitations in the way he moves. He's too big to play the position without altering his style and he doesn't seem to want to do that so I don't have these big dreams and high aspirations some others do that believe some magical light will go on for the kid. When, his 5th or 6th season?! This is the guy's 4th year and he's stunk it up in the last 3 games and to me, hasn't look particularly intimidating at any point.

--Any time our pass rush didn't sack Kolb in Arizona he seemed to have no issue tearing through our secondary. Should I mention the last TD was on Smith? I think we've all heard it enough quite frankly.

--He certainly didn't shut down AJ Green who had a solid day receiving, dropped a couple easy balls as I remember and even caught a TD without too much effort.

--We faced an overly depleted Oakland team where everyone stood out and looked good.

--We faced a Jets team who put Holmes mostly on Richard Marshall during week 1 and who had Clyde Gates as their featured target week 8. Rolling Eyes

--He looked awful against the Colts and besides lapsing in coverage quite a bit, did nothing to redeem himself when he had the chance.

--Ditto against Tennessee.


I don't recall how he did against Houston (probably a good job on Andre Johnson) but was it anything that would offset all that? I mean, hell, this has been one of Johnson's most down years so it's likely a few CBs are going to have surprising days in Houston. Didn't he give up a score there though? I think one of those passes was a fade to his side that he wasn't able to break up in the end zone resulting in a TD. Maybe I'm wrong.

The dude's slightly above average.

I just really hope we don't overpay for him.

Overpay for a QB or a Tackle or a premier WR or a premier DE/OLB...

...don't overpay for a DB!!! Evil or Very Mad
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Clutch


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2240
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Russ57 wrote:
Flip side of the coin...and one I don't think you are going due consideration to.....is are there other options in FA that are greater and cheaper?

It is easy to say a given player, like Sean Smith isn't worth his asking price, but facts are his worth is determined by the market and logic ditactes any cheaper option won't be as good. Ditto on any other player from starks to fasano.

Face it, some of these players are going to have to be extended even if there aren't who we want to have for the future.



1.) You can pay for an above-average CB in FA most years.

2.) You can pay for a mediocre, average, fill-in CB in FA most years.

It feels like to me Sean Smith is giving us production only a little above #2 and will be rewarded with money erring on the side of #1.

If that's the case, the smart man is going to let him walk and start developing some other solid option who might not be quite as reliable but certainly won't be over-paid.

I'll be happy either way. My point of contention has been that we woefully over-rate Sean Smith's abilities and consistency in this forum to the point that a guy very near average is being looked at as far better than that.

He has limitations in the way he moves. He's too big to play the position without altering his style and he doesn't seem to want to do that so I don't have these big dreams and high aspirations some others do that believe some magical light will go on for the kid. When, his 5th or 6th season?! This is the guy's 4th year and he's stunk it up in the last 3 games and to me, hasn't look particularly intimidating at any point.

--Any time our pass rush didn't sack Kolb in Arizona he seemed to have no issue tearing through our secondary. Should I mention the last TD was on Smith? I think we've all heard it enough quite frankly.

--He certainly didn't shut down AJ Green who had a solid day receiving, dropped a couple easy balls as I remember and even caught a TD without too much effort.

--We faced an overly depleted Oakland team where everyone stood out and looked good.

--We faced a Jets team who put Holmes mostly on Richard Marshall during week 1 and who had Clyde Gates as their featured target week 8. Rolling Eyes

--He looked awful against the Colts and besides lapsing in coverage quite a bit, did nothing to redeem himself when he had the chance.

--Ditto against Tennessee.


I don't recall how he did against Houston (probably a good job on Andre Johnson) but was it anything that would offset all that? I mean, hell, this has been one of Johnson's most down years so it's likely a few CBs are going to have surprising days in Houston. Didn't he give up a score there though? I think one of those passes was a fade to his side that he wasn't able to break up in the end zone resulting in a TD. Maybe I'm wrong.

The dude's slightly above average.

I just really hope we don't overpay for him.

Overpay for a QB or a Tackle or a premier WR or a premier DE/OLB...

...don't overpay for a DB!!! Evil or Very Mad


Bolded above - is that even possible?

Everyone thinks you HAVE to tag Jake and Sean. You don't. If you don't feel they are worth top 5 money at the position, then don't sign em. But then they have a right to walk. Sean Smith will probably get his money somewhere, Miami has to decide if they will pay that amount. I can't see why not. Especially if you get a true #1. But IF Sean leaves, what is the plan? Draft two rookies? Good luck next year.

Watching Jake walk is even more difficult, it means you are now essentially having to spend your top choice on a LT. Jake was to be the cog we didn't have to worry about. Now 5 years later this....doesn't make sense because of one year.

Hartline. No way he gets paid big money.

Starks. Let him walk. We have other players that can contribute.

For me, I can live with Fasano if Eifert gets picked AND becomes what many think he can. It allows the offense to run or pass. You put Egnew in right now, the other team knows its a pass. Deception is the key. Plus it helps us win the protection of the qb.

To me its a no brainer. Sign Jake, Sean, Hartline. Let Starks walk and start the draft with Eifert (trade back or whatever). Keep your good players and build on it. We all want to build through the draft, well here you are. Your own Free Agents are up. Time to pay.
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ovaw8lover


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 9065
Location: Dolphins Stadium
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
phinmun wrote:
Russ57 wrote:
Flip side of the coin...and one I don't think you are going due consideration to.....is are there other options in FA that are greater and cheaper?

It is easy to say a given player, like Sean Smith isn't worth his asking price, but facts are his worth is determined by the market and logic ditactes any cheaper option won't be as good. Ditto on any other player from starks to fasano.

Face it, some of these players are going to have to be extended even if there aren't who we want to have for the future.



1.) You can pay for an above-average CB in FA most years.

2.) You can pay for a mediocre, average, fill-in CB in FA most years.

It feels like to me Sean Smith is giving us production only a little above #2 and will be rewarded with money erring on the side of #1.

If that's the case, the smart man is going to let him walk and start developing some other solid option who might not be quite as reliable but certainly won't be over-paid.

I'll be happy either way. My point of contention has been that we woefully over-rate Sean Smith's abilities and consistency in this forum to the point that a guy very near average is being looked at as far better than that.

He has limitations in the way he moves. He's too big to play the position without altering his style and he doesn't seem to want to do that so I don't have these big dreams and high aspirations some others do that believe some magical light will go on for the kid. When, his 5th or 6th season?! This is the guy's 4th year and he's stunk it up in the last 3 games and to me, hasn't look particularly intimidating at any point.

--Any time our pass rush didn't sack Kolb in Arizona he seemed to have no issue tearing through our secondary. Should I mention the last TD was on Smith? I think we've all heard it enough quite frankly.

--He certainly didn't shut down AJ Green who had a solid day receiving, dropped a couple easy balls as I remember and even caught a TD without too much effort.

--We faced an overly depleted Oakland team where everyone stood out and looked good.

--We faced a Jets team who put Holmes mostly on Richard Marshall during week 1 and who had Clyde Gates as their featured target week 8. Rolling Eyes

--He looked awful against the Colts and besides lapsing in coverage quite a bit, did nothing to redeem himself when he had the chance.

--Ditto against Tennessee.


I don't recall how he did against Houston (probably a good job on Andre Johnson) but was it anything that would offset all that? I mean, hell, this has been one of Johnson's most down years so it's likely a few CBs are going to have surprising days in Houston. Didn't he give up a score there though? I think one of those passes was a fade to his side that he wasn't able to break up in the end zone resulting in a TD. Maybe I'm wrong.

The dude's slightly above average.

I just really hope we don't overpay for him.

Overpay for a QB or a Tackle or a premier WR or a premier DE/OLB...

...don't overpay for a DB!!! Evil or Very Mad


Bolded above - is that even possible?

Everyone thinks you HAVE to tag Jake and Sean. You don't. If you don't feel they are worth top 5 money at the position, then don't sign em. But then they have a right to walk. Sean Smith will probably get his money somewhere, Miami has to decide if they will pay that amount. I can't see why not. Especially if you get a true #1. But IF Sean leaves, what is the plan? Draft two rookies? Good luck next year.

Watching Jake walk is even more difficult, it means you are now essentially having to spend your top choice on a LT. Jake was to be the cog we didn't have to worry about. Now 5 years later this....doesn't make sense because of one year.

Hartline. No way he gets paid big money.

Starks. Let him walk. We have other players that can contribute.

For me, I can live with Fasano if Eifert gets picked AND becomes what many think he can. It allows the offense to run or pass. You put Egnew in right now, the other team knows its a pass. Deception is the key. Plus it helps us win the protection of the qb.

To me its a no brainer. Sign Jake, Sean, Hartline. Let Starks walk and start the draft with Eifert (trade back or whatever). Keep your good players and build on it. We all want to build through the draft, well here you are. Your own Free Agents are up. Time to pay.


I agree, you have to keep Jake. There are so many other teams that will kill to have Jake Long. Even if he is having a bad season. They need new guards capable of getting to the second level of the defense. This is why we cant run the ball. Incognito and Jerry are too big. They cant move laterally, so the LB's are stuffing the run every time.
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finsyanksmancs


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 3727
Location: Raleighwood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have to prioritize WR. That sideline route to Bess that was intercepted was a perfect example. He's too slow and short to make a play on that ball. I'm not trying to knock Bess, he just shouldn't be running those routes but we don't have anyone else. I'd like to have Justin Hunter. We've made a significant investment at QB and need to build around him. There are plenty of holes on defense and the offensive line but I feel like the skill position players take the longest to develop so we should get them first.

WR or TE in the first and look for lineman and maybe a corner with the extra 2nd and 3rds.

Maybe something like this with our first 5 picks:
2 WR/WR TE
2 OL
1 DB
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MNPackfan32


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 8099
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just remember guys, Rome wasn't built in a day..... Its gunna take some time to build this thing right, priority #1 is keeping Tannehill healthy and happy. Every young QB needs a good running game to help him out. Even the Packers had a 1,000 yard rusher the first couple years Aaron Rodgers was starting. Now you have to go out and get 2 or 3 WR's in the draft IMO. The defense just needs to learn how to catch the damn ball and they would be excellent. It will take a draft or two but as long as Tannehill is learning from his mistakes and making progress you guys will be fine in the long run!
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MNPackfan32 wrote:
Josh Sitton, Mike Daniels

Average at best
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ovaw8lover


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 9065
Location: Dolphins Stadium
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
Just remember guys, Rome wasn't built in a day..... Its gunna take some time to build this thing right, priority #1 is keeping Tannehill healthy and happy. Every young QB needs a good running game to help him out. Even the Packers had a 1,000 yard rusher the first couple years Aaron Rodgers was starting. Now you have to go out and get 2 or 3 WR's in the draft IMO. The defense just needs to learn how to catch the damn ball and they would be excellent. It will take a draft or two but as long as Tannehill is learning from his mistakes and making progress you guys will be fine in the long run!


See this is where we differ. I am not sold on Tanney at all. All I know is guys like Luck make receivers look better. I am not so sure receivers make the QB. The Broncos had a mediocre bunch of receivers a year ago. Insert Manning and they dont look so bad all of a sudden. Miami's passing game wasnt all that great last year either. And that was with Brandon Marshall. Am I suppose to believe with Dwayne Bowe or (insert supposed #1 WR) will elevate his play?

I am not down on the kid. You know...maybe I am down on the kid because I see him getting worse, not better. Maybe defenses figured out the throws he is good at and are taking the others away. I dont know. All I know is his yards per completion rivals avg rushing yards per attempt. This same cast of characters continue to make offense look too hard.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovaw8lover wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
Just remember guys, Rome wasn't built in a day..... Its gunna take some time to build this thing right, priority #1 is keeping Tannehill healthy and happy. Every young QB needs a good running game to help him out. Even the Packers had a 1,000 yard rusher the first couple years Aaron Rodgers was starting. Now you have to go out and get 2 or 3 WR's in the draft IMO. The defense just needs to learn how to catch the damn ball and they would be excellent. It will take a draft or two but as long as Tannehill is learning from his mistakes and making progress you guys will be fine in the long run!


See this is where we differ. I am not sold on Tanney at all. All I know is guys like Luck make receivers look better. I am not so sure receivers make the QB. The Broncos had a mediocre bunch of receivers a year ago. Insert Manning and they dont look so bad all of a sudden. Miami's passing game wasnt all that great last year either. And that was with Brandon Marshall. Am I suppose to believe with Dwayne Bowe or (insert supposed #1 WR) will elevate his play?

I am not down on the kid. You know...maybe I am down on the kid because I see him getting worse, not better. Maybe defenses figured out the throws he is good at and are taking the others away. I dont know. All I know is his yards per completion rivals avg rushing yards per attempt. This same cast of characters continue to make offense look too hard.


I respect Ovaw, but I have to say, his opinion is (I believe) not only in the minority here but also fundamentally problematic.


Andrew Luck is a better prospect.

Andrew Luck's O-line is more consistent, reliable.

Andrew Luck has WRs like we have PLUS Wayne, Fleener & Allen.

Andrew Luck is a better prospect.



I've seen this "elitist" attitude in this forum for a long time. It's why we've seen so much turnover at the QB spot. We don't have the patience to stick with a guy and develop him because this mindset is too fearful that he won't be "elite."

When a team goes 15 years without solid QB-play people get caught up with the idea they're cursed they forget to acknowledge the dozen or so above-average QBs like Schaub, Roethlisberger, Ryan and others that prove you don't need a Brees, Manning or Brady to be in contention.

The above-average guys need weapons. The Texans are stacked. The Falcons are stacked. The Steelers have been loaded on offense for a decade. Now, yes, Manning in his prime could/can make garbage look good but anyone who believes that is the measuring stick for QB-performance in the NFL is going to find that their mandates ultimately create a very, very short list of possible candidates.

People watch Marino for 15 years and they can't sit still and watch an average QB develop.
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MNPackfan32


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovaw8lover wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
Just remember guys, Rome wasn't built in a day..... Its gunna take some time to build this thing right, priority #1 is keeping Tannehill healthy and happy. Every young QB needs a good running game to help him out. Even the Packers had a 1,000 yard rusher the first couple years Aaron Rodgers was starting. Now you have to go out and get 2 or 3 WR's in the draft IMO. The defense just needs to learn how to catch the damn ball and they would be excellent. It will take a draft or two but as long as Tannehill is learning from his mistakes and making progress you guys will be fine in the long run!


See this is where we differ. I am not sold on Tanney at all. All I know is guys like Luck make receivers look better. I am not so sure receivers make the QB. The Broncos had a mediocre bunch of receivers a year ago. Insert Manning and they dont look so bad all of a sudden. Miami's passing game wasnt all that great last year either. And that was with Brandon Marshall. Am I suppose to believe with Dwayne Bowe or (insert supposed #1 WR) will elevate his play?

I am not down on the kid. You know...maybe I am down on the kid because I see him getting worse, not better. Maybe defenses figured out the throws he is good at and are taking the others away. I dont know. All I know is his yards per completion rivals avg rushing yards per attempt. This same cast of characters continue to make offense look too hard.
Later on when a QB is fully developed he will make guys look better but when they are young, they need help. Look at the QB's to come into the leauge the last 2 years and really who has it worse on offense than Tannehill? Newton - Verygood running game & Steve Smith & Greg Olson, Gabbert - MJD, M. Lewis, about as bad WR's last year but much better this year. Ponder - Best RB in the NFL, Percy Harvin, Kyle Rudolph, Andy Dalton - OK running game, Elite WR with good cast around him. Locker - CJ2K, very solid WR's. Luck - Underrated RB's, 2 high round TE picks, HOF WR in Wayne and some young skill in Hilton. RG3 - Shannahan always has a good ground game, Santana Moss and P. Garcon are solid. Russ Wilson - Beast Mode and a decent WRing corps. Common theme is these young guys have to have weapons, most of these guys have very good O-lines too, so they dont get the David Carr syndrom of getting beaten to a pulp. Tannehill needs time and weapons and he will prove to be a franchise QB.
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Duff Man wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
Josh Sitton, Mike Daniels

Average at best
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