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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7867
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Cutler is not without his faults, but if I were him I wouldn't re-sign unless the team makes a serious commitment to improving the talent level on the offensive line.


Cutler is getting resigned because he is the best QB the Bear have bad in 40 years. It would not be easy finding some one better.

My problem is this, is Cutler, like Romo and Rivers, good enough to have a winning record but so flawed and inconsistent that thy cannot win the big games that count?

The Bears will always have a winning record with Cutler, but can thy beat Green Bay, can he win the Superbowl?

Come on. You make it sound like beating Green Bay is something just any bum can do. They were 15-1 last year and would be 7-2 this year if not for the SEA game debacle.

Cutler is 14-5 since the start of last season and outside of his first year under Ron Turner all he has done is win even though this is the first year he has had a legit #1 WR and he has yet to have even an average OL. Every fan wants a winner and we have gotten that as regularly under Jay as we have at any point in the past 20 years. Yeah it's not the 01-04 Pats but it sure ain't the 90s Bears either. There are 32 NFL teams and exactly 6 have a starting QB who has won a Super Bowl.
We have had one winning season with Jay so far. There is still a long way to go before this decision has to get made but giving him elite money for mediocre performance is absurd. Now his agent may see the writing on the wall and push for an extension which is in line with actual pay but we cannot pay a QB in the low 80s money given to those around 100.

The main problem with the 90s was that Jerry Vanise was never replaced and the team did not even have a GM until Angelo came and organized the chaos and stupidity; firing the Coach did not help either. Outside of Ditka we were TWO games over .500. Nor could we keep a QB healthy.

The nineties were squarely on the stupidity of the McCaskey's. Ditka had a bad team and a bad year and the idiots fired him.
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
My problem is this, is Cutler, like Romo and Rivers, good enough to have a winning record but so flawed and inconsistent that thy cannot win the big games that count?

I don't think we can downplay the importance of needing a top-notch QB to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL. But at the same time, only two, MAYBE three of those guys come along every decade. So you have to do your best to win with what you have. Say what you want about Cutler; I'll take my chances with a guy like him, Romo, or Rivers rather than rolling the dice and starting over.

ChicagoAl wrote:
The team has done this for three years now and his play is no better. He still runs out of the pocket into linemen, holds the ball way to long, and has no awareness of the rush. Having a rocket arm does not always mean much. He has not shown improvement.

You're taking on the traditional Chicago Bears fan mentality, which is that the quarterback has to win the game on his own, regardless of what's going on around him. This was the widespread mentality when Cutler was signed; all problems were gone, Super Bowl was on!

ChicagoAl wrote:
Rodgers gets sacked as much or more than Jay and is a franchise qb.

He also has infinite depth at WR and a much better offensive system than the Bears do.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Jay is nowhere close to a franchise qb, you don't become a franchise guy with qB ratings hovering around 80. That is about 20 pts too low to spend 20-25 million a year on.

It doesn't make much sense to be so down on the best QB in franchise history when the defense is playing better than they have in nearly 30 years.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
Cutler is not without his faults, but if I were him I wouldn't re-sign unless the team makes a serious commitment to improving the talent level on the offensive line.


Cutler is getting resigned because he is the best QB the Bear have bad in 40 years. It would not be easy finding some one better.

My problem is this, is Cutler, like Romo and Rivers, good enough to have a winning record but so flawed and inconsistent that thy cannot win the big games that count?

The Bears will always have a winning record with Cutler, but can thy beat Green Bay, can he win the Superbowl?
The difference between teams like GB, NE is that they can spot a young QB talent and actually develop them. QBs typically get to the Bears from another team and regress. Kramer is the only exception that I have seen to this rule. But, if there is another I'm sure a FFer will be happy to tell me.
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topwop1


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give props where props is due, the better team won...........in this meeting; but to be totally honest I wasn't all that impressed with the Texans in this game. I feel they are very beatable if the Bears were ever to meet them again, say perhaps in Superbowl XLVII? I don't feel either team will make it there however unfortunately.

I still believe that the Packers are thee most dangerous team in the NFC and the one that poses the most problems for our beloved Bears. Until they prove that they can thoroughly lay a smacking on those Packers then I will remain skeptical.
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
The difference between teams like GB, NE is that they can spot a young QB talent and actually develop them. QBs typically get to the Bears from another team and regress. Kramer is the only exception that I have seen to this rule. But, if there is another I'm sure a FFer will be happy to tell me.

Don't be the stereotypical old guy. You're better than that.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
My problem is this, is Cutler, like Romo and Rivers, good enough to have a winning record but so flawed and inconsistent that thy cannot win the big games that count?

I don't think we can downplay the importance of needing a top-notch QB to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL. But at the same time, only two, MAYBE three of those guys come along every decade. So you have to do your best to win with what you have. Say what you want about Cutler; I'll take my chances with a guy like him, Romo, or Rivers rather than rolling the dice and starting over.

ChicagoAl wrote:
The team has done this for three years now and his play is no better. He still runs out of the pocket into linemen, holds the ball way to long, and has no awareness of the rush. Having a rocket arm does not always mean much. He has not shown improvement.

You're taking on the traditional Chicago Bears fan mentality, which is that the quarterback has to win the game on his own, regardless of what's going on around him. This was the widespread mentality when Cutler was signed; all problems were gone, Super Bowl was on! Not true, that has never been my belief wrt to either Cutler or QBs. All I have ever asked is that he be as good as Grossman was the SB year. Do you honestly see improvement? Long time Bear fans have NEVER asked for anything more than a competent game manager. That is all we wanted. Jim Miller was fine, Kramer was fine, Harbaugh was fine. If Cutler can stay healthy and play at their levels he will really be the best we have had since Luckman. So far he has had one winning year and decent stats.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Rodgers gets sacked as much or more than Jay and is a franchise qb.

He also has infinite depth at WR and a much better offensive system than the Bears do. At the beginning of the year all I heard was how our WRs were sooo good we would not miss Knox and were now almost as good as anyone. Rodgers has a much better grasp of what is happening around him which is the most critical element of a QB's play. Switch our WRs and you will see the same superiority wrt Rodgers.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Jay is nowhere close to a franchise qb, you don't become a franchise guy with qB ratings hovering around 80. That is about 20 pts too low to spend 20-25 million a year on.

It doesn't make much sense to be so down on the best QB in franchise history when the defense is playing better than they have in nearly 30 years.
Mike, I am not "down" on Cutler and understand the difficulties he is working under and am not advocating anything odd or impractical. You know I defend Bears till the last dog is dead.

For the rest of this season and the next Jay is our QB (hopefully) but successful franchises have to look down the road and we damn well better get a QB we can develop in the draft or pay for one in FA. If we are betting on Jay for the next half dozen years, it is a Fool's bet.

And the concussion history may make this decision moot in any case.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
The difference between teams like GB, NE is that they can spot a young QB talent and actually develop them. QBs typically get to the Bears from another team and regress. Kramer is the only exception that I have seen to this rule. But, if there is another I'm sure a FFer will be happy to tell me.

Don't be the stereotypical old guy. You're better than that.
Not only am I not a "stereotypical" old guy but likely as little like that as you can imagine.

What was stereotypical about what I said? Shall I list the QBs who have regressed in order to escape your censure? Or run through the list of QBs that GB has sent out into the league?
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topwop1 wrote:
I'll give props where props is due, the better team won...........in this meeting; but to be totally honest I wasn't all that impressed with the Texans in this game. I feel they are very beatable if the Bears were ever to meet them again, say perhaps in Superbowl XLVII? I don't feel either team will make it there however unfortunately.

I still believe that the Packers are thee most dangerous team in the NFC and the one that poses the most problems for our beloved Bears. Until they prove that they can thoroughly lay a smacking on those Packers then I will remain skeptical.
I agree with every point.
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 18949
Location: Abdi on the sick sig
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
IronMike84 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
My problem is this, is Cutler, like Romo and Rivers, good enough to have a winning record but so flawed and inconsistent that thy cannot win the big games that count?

I don't think we can downplay the importance of needing a top-notch QB to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL. But at the same time, only two, MAYBE three of those guys come along every decade. So you have to do your best to win with what you have. Say what you want about Cutler; I'll take my chances with a guy like him, Romo, or Rivers rather than rolling the dice and starting over.

ChicagoAl wrote:
The team has done this for three years now and his play is no better. He still runs out of the pocket into linemen, holds the ball way to long, and has no awareness of the rush. Having a rocket arm does not always mean much. He has not shown improvement.

You're taking on the traditional Chicago Bears fan mentality, which is that the quarterback has to win the game on his own, regardless of what's going on around him. This was the widespread mentality when Cutler was signed; all problems were gone, Super Bowl was on! Not true, that has never been my belief wrt to either Cutler or QBs. All I have ever asked is that he be as good as Grossman was the SB year. Do you honestly see improvement? Long time Bear fans have NEVER asked for anything more than a competent game manager. That is all we wanted. Jim Miller was fine, Kramer was fine, Harbaugh was fine. If Cutler can stay healthy and play at their levels he will really be the best we have had since Luckman. So far he has had one winning year and decent stats.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Rodgers gets sacked as much or more than Jay and is a franchise qb.

He also has infinite depth at WR and a much better offensive system than the Bears do. At the beginning of the year all I heard was how our WRs were sooo good we would not miss Knox and were now almost as good as anyone. Rodgers has a much better grasp of what is happening around him which is the most critical element of a QB's play. Switch our WRs and you will see the same superiority wrt Rodgers.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Jay is nowhere close to a franchise qb, you don't become a franchise guy with qB ratings hovering around 80. That is about 20 pts too low to spend 20-25 million a year on.

It doesn't make much sense to be so down on the best QB in franchise history when the defense is playing better than they have in nearly 30 years.
Mike, I am not "down" on Cutler and understand the difficulties he is working under and am not advocating anything odd or impractical. You know I defend Bears till the last dog is dead.

For the rest of this season and the next Jay is our QB (hopefully) but successful franchises have to look down the road and we damn well better get a QB we can develop in the draft or pay for one in FA. If we are betting on Jay for the next half dozen years, it is a Fool's bet.

And the concussion history may make this decision moot in any case.
Since 2009 Jay is 24-10, he's had a lot more than one winning season.
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Do you honestly see improvement? ... So far he has had one winning year and decent stats.

I see a likely playoff team this year, a team that was playoff bound last season, and a team that made it to the NFC Championship game in 2010. I'd say that's pretty good seeing that the mantra "no playoffs for three straight years is unacceptable" was running rampant in this city following 2009.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Long time Bear fans have NEVER asked for anything more than a competent game manager.

That's so far from the truth.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Jim Miller was fine, Kramer was fine, Harbaugh was fine.

Those guys were all ran out of town for their shortcomings, not lauded for their abilities. If you want to play the "I've watched the Bears for X number of years, I know how this goes" card, you should know that the same may very likely to happen to Cutler. What has scared me since they traded for him was not his faults, but how the city would react to them.

ChicagoAl wrote:
At the beginning of the year all I heard was how our WRs were sooo good we would not miss Knox and were now almost as good as anyone.

You're lamenting over Knox, but you were also the largest supporter here of both Kellen Davis and Dane Sanzenbacher. Sanz has done nothing and Davis has done more harm than good.

ChicagoAl wrote:
...successful franchises have to look down the road and we damn well better get a QB we can develop in the draft or pay for one in FA.

That's a significant investment that I don't think the Bears have the luxury of making right now, or even in the next year or two provided some type of disaster does not occur.

ChicagoAl wrote:
If we are betting on Jay for the next half dozen years, it is a Fool's bet.

Jay's 29. Realistically, his window is three, maybe four years at the very most. And the window of the defense is much smaller than that.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Shall I list the QBs who have regressed in order to escape your censure?

Nobody has that kind of time.

ChicagoAl wrote:
What was stereotypical about what I said?

The whole "I've been watching the Bears for X number of years, so I know how it's going to go" routine.
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BearsDen1-99


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To keep things straight...the Offense is just plain crappy right now. dang!
I wish they would play better.
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Pack4life7


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really hope Cutler passes all the post concussion tests this week and is good to go against SF Monday.

Injuries are the worst part of football, especially when it's to the most valuable position in pro sports.

As for the game, geesh that was messy. Tough to take much from that.

I don't know if any game is a must win when you are 7-2 but a lota people in Chicago will be panicking if the Bears drop 2 in a row and are 0-3 against quality opponents this year.

It's starting to get pretty exciting.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Do you honestly see improvement? ... So far he has had one winning year and decent stats.

I see a likely playoff team this year, a team that was playoff bound last season, and a team that made it to the NFC Championship game in 2010. I'd say that's pretty good seeing that the mantra "no playoffs for three straight years is unacceptable" was running rampant in this city following 2009.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Long time Bear fans have NEVER asked for anything more than a competent game manager.

That's so far from the truth. Sorry but that is the EXACT truth. I don't know what you have been watching or listening to.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Jim Miller was fine, Kramer was fine, Harbaugh was fine.

Those guys were all ran out of town for their shortcomings, not lauded for their abilities. Miller had problems staying on the field as did Kramer after his first couple of years during which he set the Bear record for tds. Harbaugh was a good QB with a rating overall similar to Cutler. If you want to play the "I've watched the Bears for X number of years, I know how this goes" card, you should know that the same may very likely to happen to Cutler. I have repeatedly said this so you are not educating me there. What has scared me since they traded for him was not his faults, but how the city would react to them. I said when it occurred that the trade of two 1sts for Jay was not fair to HIM because it would excite undue expectations which he nor anyone else would meet.

ChicagoAl wrote:
At the beginning of the year all I heard was how our WRs were sooo good we would not miss Knox and were now almost as good as anyone.

You're lamenting over Knox, but you were also the largest supporter here of both Kellen Davis and Dane Sanzenbacher. Sanz has done nothing and Davis has done more harm than good. Sanz has rarely been on the field or active and I have hardly been his "largest supporter". I like him and he has been of use when he gets a chance. I was happy to see him come here as an UFA. Davis has blown the few opportunities he has had this year but that could quickly change. But what does any of that have to do with Cutler? Or lamenting Knox's absence?

ChicagoAl wrote:
...successful franchises have to look down the road and we damn well better get a QB we can develop in the draft or pay for one in FA.

That's a significant investment that I don't think the Bears have the luxury of making right now, or even in the next year or two provided some type of disaster does not occur. Since there is no chance we will be picking a QB high in the first round, monetary concerns are not an issue. If Jay does not pick it up the next year and a half, it will be even less of an issue since he will be run out of town as you note. Not by me but by the mass of fans who have no patience.

ChicagoAl wrote:
If we are betting on Jay for the next half dozen years, it is a Fool's bet.

Jay's 29. Realistically, his window is three, maybe four years at the very most. And the window of the defense is much smaller than that. Sure, that is true IF YOU STAND STILL. Emery won't.

ChicagoAl wrote:
Shall I list the QBs who have regressed in order to escape your censure?

Nobody has that kind of time.

ChicagoAl wrote:
What was stereotypical about what I said?

The whole "I've been watching the Bears for X number of years, so I know how it's going to go" routine.
I have seen it all before. This is not a weakness but a strength. So when fans get all hysterical and giddy about the acquisition, particularly by trade, of a QB, I don't since I have seen it before and it has always blown up in the Bears faces. See Mike Phipps, see Miers.

Last edited by ChicagoAl on Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pack4life7 wrote:
Really hope Cutler passes all the post concussion tests this week and is good to go against SF Monday.

Injuries are the worst part of football, especially when it's to the most valuable position in pro sports.

As for the game, geesh that was messy. Tough to take much from that.

I don't know if any game is a must win when you are 7-2 but a lota people in Chicago will be panicking if the Bears drop 2 in a row and are 0-3 against quality opponents this year.

It's starting to get pretty exciting.
Hey, what is going on with Mathews? Is he going to play? Is the hammie still a problem?
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.flash


Joined: 24 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Hey, what is going on with Mathews? Is he going to play? Is the hammie still a problem?
Matthews is out for our game against Detroit. He injured his hammy against the Cards a couple weeks ago, but I'm sure he'll be good to go for our week 15 matchup. I'm hoping Jennings and Woodson get healthy before that game as well.
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