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Phire


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Question about Jon Gruden! Reply with quote

Hey guys, real quick, what are your thoughts on Jon Gruden?

The Eagles forum is split on him. Is he a good coach? Bad coach? People who want Gruden post pictures of the Lombardi Trophy, those who are against him bring up some of the questionable opinions of his former players:

Quote:
Sapp says that “Tony Dungy put the damn cake in the oven, and then Jon Gruden came in and put the icing on it.”


I personally, do not agree that Gruden is a good fit for the Eagles. Not because I don't think he's a successful coach, but because

1) He's had some time away from the game
2) His main accomplishment is the 2002 Super Bowl when he took over a great defense.

The second point is imperative because the Eagles are the polar opposite right now. Would Gruden be a good fit for a rebuilding Eagles team?
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

his "offensive genius" was never more false. The fact that this years team is destroying franchise offensive records now, tells you what you need to know.

Gruden was terrible at challenges, one thing I remember vividly. He knew how to get the most out of over the hill vets though, not so much with rookies. Terrible at talent evaluation, but great at getting most out of players

Could never set his horse on one QB, for many reasons, but was his true demise.

Won us our superbowl though, and i will never forget that. Did enough with the offense for us to win that Superbowl, with a good RB he is a great coach. Look no further then when Caddy was healthy.

Him with McCoy would be great.

Still think that he is best fit for college game, though with the success of Schiano's style, Gruden might be able to get players to buy in
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indifference


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gruden is a great coach for a team that does not have to re-build. Simply put, the guy did a poor job bringing in fresh new talent when he took over. That's the reason why Tampa has been in the slums for so long because of the reoccurrence of lack of talent. Those drafts were pathetic from top to bottom. Till this day, I still thought Davin Joseph was a WTF pick when I heard the announcement. Then rewind some more you see another reach in Michael Clayton, over...wait for it...Steven Jackson. Gruden has a history of reaching in drafts and I would say 90% of them didn't pan out. I'm including his mid-round selection i.e.(Piscitelli, Black, Stovall, Jackson WR)

Now as far as his game-planning goes week in and week out, this is where he was superior against other coaches. He was great at halftime adjustments and knew how to get the most out his players. Gruden knows what to do with the talent given. For example, we all saw what happened after we lost Keyshawn our pass game went to a more vertical style when Galloway came in. He knows how to call a good game most of the time - Gruden just needs the players to run his system and his offense will put up points. Tampa never had the QB to really run that offense he had up in Oakland but he had many opportunities to go after one.

If Philly can get a big body possession WR for next year and hire Gruden, that offense will be dynamic. Get some oline depth too but yeah...He would be a good hire for NOW but when its time to move on from Vick expect your offensive out-put to be below average every year unless he develops Foles. Lock Gruden out the draft room and avoid his input on FA prospects and he will be a flawless pick-up. But, we all know those aren't going to happen. Take the good with the bad.......
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Gruden came into Philly and didn't change a thing, I think you would be very good for a few years like Tampa was when he first arrived.

But his inability to draft anyone would likely lead to the teams' downfall after a few years. The Eagles are already at a place where they have had weak drafts and FA patches, Gruden would bring a spark that would be a flash in the pan more than a resurgence.

Plus it's hard to say Gruden was any good here anyway, his offenses never really were great and when Kiffin bailed on us, the team fell apart. We'll never know how many of his wins were because of Kiffin and how many were his own doing.
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give Gruden a slight pass on the drafts. Since we traded a boatload of draft picks just to get him from Oakland he didn't have much firepower to use early in his time here. That being said, there is no denying that when he was our HC our drafts were laughably awful. His best draft pick was Davin Joseph. Outside of that, it has been mostly garbage. If you bring him on as HC your GM better be the one shopping for the groceries...

He is a tremendous offensive mind that was able to do a lot with a little. Our offenses were never all that explosive, but they were never all that talented either (Gruden is partly to blame for that).

Philly would be an interesting landing spot. If he did go to Philly the GM and DC would be just as important. You don't want Gruden deciding who to draft and for the most part he is completely hands off the defense. He'll challenge them in practice, but that's about it.

People tend to underrate Gruden because he couldn't find sustained, consistent success here, but I will always be thankful that he was able to bring us a superbowl. I think that he's capable of winning in this league again, but he needs certain pieces to be in place to be successful, IMO.
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tml_gogo


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think his offensive abilities are greatly exaggerated. I remember he loved pre snap motion to the point of ridiculousness, and usually just for normal plays that rarely fooled the defense.

As others have mentioned, if he has any influence on draft choice, lord help your team. Incapable.
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bucsEST96


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.
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LazyBoyFil


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsEST96 wrote:
Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.


This this this all the way

Loved gruden

He did suck at drafting though

He was best with veterans
And boy did he bring alot of em in

I think he's a good coach but he definitely needs to have a good QB

If ur gona have him as the coach u need to have the GM making all personnel moves
Just let him coach that's it

I used to love watching him all fired up and yelling at ppl that first year
After that tho it seemed like he kinda lost fire
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsEST96 wrote:
Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.


Are you saying that the fact that he knew the Raiders in and out sullied his Super Bowl win?

Doesn't that make him even less of a great coach? And if he were such a great coach, wouldn't we have not picked in the top 5 every few years?
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bucsEST96


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
bucsEST96 wrote:
Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.


Are you saying that the fact that he knew the Raiders in and out sullied his Super Bowl win?

Doesn't that make him even less of a great coach? And if he were such a great coach, wouldn't we have not picked in the top 5 every few years?


He picked in the top five because he and Allen were terrible at drafting. He did what Dungy couldn't do. People can't accept it. The man made the raiders a powerhouse and was within a tuck rule of back to back SB's.

He won the SB because we had more points than they did
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scottonatable


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsEST96 wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
bucsEST96 wrote:
Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.


Are you saying that the fact that he knew the Raiders in and out sullied his Super Bowl win?

Doesn't that make him even less of a great coach? And if he were such a great coach, wouldn't we have not picked in the top 5 every few years?



He picked in the top five because he and Allen were terrible at drafting. He did what Dungy couldn't do. People can't accept it. The man made the raiders a powerhouse and was within a tuck rule of back to back SB's.

He won the SB because we had more points than they did

I do believe our D scored a few times in the Super Bowl maybe even more points then our offense... and we were lucky that Pittman had his career best game that day
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsEST96 wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
bucsEST96 wrote:
Gruden: great coach/ atrocious drafter. Atrocious. Ppl always diss his SB win but guess what, tony dungy couldn't get it done. Gruden brought the pieces to get us passed Philly.

And funny ppl forget them other team in that SB WAS JON GRUDENS DAMN TEAM. Lets not at like we didn't know their plays bucs fans. C'mon now.


Are you saying that the fact that he knew the Raiders in and out sullied his Super Bowl win?

Doesn't that make him even less of a great coach? And if he were such a great coach, wouldn't we have not picked in the top 5 every few years?


He picked in the top five because he and Allen were terrible at drafting. He did what Dungy couldn't do. People can't accept it. The man made the raiders a powerhouse and was within a tuck rule of back to back SB's.

He won the SB because we had more points than they did


So a team 2 years removed from a Super Bowl victory picked in the top 5 because of 2 years of poor draft classes? Sorry, but we both know that's not true. It wasn't 2nd and 1st year players that held the team back to a 5-11 year. It was Gruden.

And what a cop out to the SB point. Gruden was very open about practicing as Gannon because he knew the play calls so well. And in case you forgot, the Raiders fell apart immediately after the Super Bowl while Dungy continued on to win a Super Bowl on his own while building another solid defense who still has some pieces in place now.

I guess some people can't accept that Gruden didn't earn his SB without some help here and there. Gruden, Dungy and Kiffin will be forever tied because of how things happened in 2002. Gruden coached the team but we all know he never would have built that defense which is the reason that team was so good.
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Soul Glo


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll always appreciate the ring he brought us and giving the extra edge that Dungy (great, great coach) couldn't seem to give us. But he is not a offensive mastermind and his draft record is not impressive. He seemed to rely on washed-up, veteran QBs and straight up mediocrity at that position so he could be the face of the offense. His draft record was not impressive. I like Gruden, but he was rightly fired and a lot of success does fall on Dungy's/Kiffin's shoulders. Accept it or not it true.

I think he could give a already set up team like maybe the Cowboys or Eagles that push to the next step, but if you are rebuilding no. The team should hire a playcaller at OC and have a GM with more say on the draft, Gruden should be more overseer of the whole team type of role. He could be successful in the right surroundings.
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Buc Ball


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there was a lot more than meets the eye with Gruden's time here. There's rumours going about that he never wanted Chris Simms and he was picked in spite of Gruden saying no. He never fit Gruden's scheme anyway. Also, after 2008, he apparently went to the Glazers with a list of big free agent guys who he felt would push us into the playoffs e.g. Brandon Jacobs. There was also his bust up with Kiffin in late 2008. All are rumours though, but would make sense.

In his time here, he never built a team from scratch. He brought in the majority of the 2002 offense and came up with a great gameplan to help us past the Eagles.

As for drafting, the fact there is 1 'Gruden' first rounder and 1 second rounder still on the team says it all. Don't even ask about Dexter Jackson or Alan Zemaitis

In fairness, he had a terrible salary cap situation for most of his time here and, if not for Kiffin announcing he was leaving right before the Carolina MNF game, he would've taken us to another division title and a deep playoff run.
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manilathrilla1


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsEST96 wrote:


He picked in the top five because he and Allen were terrible at drafting. He did what Dungy couldn't do. People can't accept it. The man made the raiders a powerhouse and was within a tuck rule of back to back SB's.

He won the SB because we had more points than they did


The man did make the Raiders a powerhouse, NOT the BUCs. And even if they won the Tuck Rule game they would still have to beat the Steelers in Pittsburgh I don't think that is a guaranteed victory.

And He won the Super Bowl because he scored more points??? Inferring that the Offense won it all or was even a great offense? The Offense was never close to being a Power House in Tampa, average at best.

The year they won:

Offense ranked 18th in points and 24 in yards
Defense ranked#1 in points allowed and #1 in yards allowed

In the Super Bowl, the Defense scored as many TD's as the Offense.

Gruden did do what Dungy couldn't do, I agree with that. Gruden got the Offense to play average and not turn the ball over. He did not however make this team a great offense.
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