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Weeden is the real deal
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16093
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
HADEN4PREZIDENT wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Drew_Carey wrote:
HADEN4PREZIDENT wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
IMO, we'd be making a huge mistake taking a QB with our 1st rounder. Not because of Weeden, but because I don't think the QB's in this draft are very good


This.

Pathetic QB Class


Too early to tell folks.


Not a lot of time left to tell. I mean, how many games are left this year, 2+bowl games?

I like Wilson's potential,and I just dont know what to think of Barkley. Obviously I was all over Geno earlier, that turned out to be a bad call.

A see 3 middle of the road starters at best


Honestly, who wants to be the team to draft a 1st round QB 2 years in a row?

Weeden will have to commit a felony guys...next topic?


Next topic: Is Weeden the real deal?
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:


Next topic: Is Weeden the real deal?


The right answer is that it is too early to tell, but there is not much discussion that comes from that.

So let's talk about what he needs to do to be the "real deal".

Win multiple Superbowls?
Win one Superbowl?
Play in a Superbowl?
Win multiple playoff games?
Win one playoff game?
Appear in multiple playoff games?
Appear in one playoff game?
Have a winning QB record?
Have a high QB rating (90+)?
Have a high completion percentage?
Have a high TD/INT ratio (2:1 or more)?
Have a lot of game winning drives (5+)?
Have better stats than all recent Browns QB?

See, I think the real question is answered by how you define being the "real deal". I will say that if your criteria are involving things from the top of that list, you (not you ditch, the proverbial "you") are being unrealistic.

To me, being the "real deal" has a strong "winning" component and would include a winning QB record. I don't care so much about QB rating since that formula is weighted to be rather unscientific and biased.

I say he could be the real deal, and WILL be the real deal when he wins several more games than he loses.
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zelbell


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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, North America, Western Hemisphere, Planet Earth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found a good article on Weeden and the coaches

http://www.sportstimeohio.com/browns/steve-king/756-its-time-to-intercept-browns-way-of-coaching-weeden
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zelbell wrote:
Found a good article on Weeden and the coaches

http://www.sportstimeohio.com/browns/steve-king/756-its-time-to-intercept-browns-way-of-coaching-weeden


Not a bad article. He is basically saying that Weeden has become more tentative throwing passes because he has thrown INTs, and I think there is some truth to that.

There is also some truth in dropped passes, bad reads, bad route running, bad decision making, and even some bad throws.

I don't think it's very accurate to say that there is a simple way to improve his performance, such as "the coaches need to make him take more chances and throw the ball deep more often". That could easily lead to more INTs.

If there is a "simple" way to explain what he and the coaches need to do, it would involve giving him more experience.

Also, I strongly disagree with the assertion that the coaches are preventing him from throwing the ball deep more often right now...he does. I see him looking downfield and not finding an open receiver, I see him missing open receivers downfield too. Neither of those things is directly related to coaching, they are clearly more related to experience than anything else.
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JCBrowns21


Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 930
Location: Chi Town
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
zelbell wrote:
Found a good article on Weeden and the coaches

http://www.sportstimeohio.com/browns/steve-king/756-its-time-to-intercept-browns-way-of-coaching-weeden


Not a bad article. He is basically saying that Weeden has become more tentative throwing passes because he has thrown INTs, and I think there is some truth to that.

There is also some truth in dropped passes, bad reads, bad route running, bad decision making, and even some bad throws.

I don't think it's very accurate to say that there is a simple way to improve his performance, such as "the coaches need to make him take more chances and throw the ball deep more often". That could easily lead to more INTs.

If there is a "simple" way to explain what he and the coaches need to do, it would involve giving him more experience.

Also, I strongly disagree with the assertion that the coaches are preventing him from throwing the ball deep more often right now...he does. I see him looking downfield and not finding an open receiver, I see him missing open receivers downfield too. Neither of those things is directly related to coaching, they are clearly more related to experience than anything else.


Childress was quoted just this past week saying he wants Weeden to "keep firing." Weeden is looking downfield, but I think teams now know that Gordon can fly and Little isn't really a deep threat. Would be nice for them to call some double moves with Gordon to help out here.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCBrowns21 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
zelbell wrote:
Found a good article on Weeden and the coaches

http://www.sportstimeohio.com/browns/steve-king/756-its-time-to-intercept-browns-way-of-coaching-weeden


Not a bad article. He is basically saying that Weeden has become more tentative throwing passes because he has thrown INTs, and I think there is some truth to that.

There is also some truth in dropped passes, bad reads, bad route running, bad decision making, and even some bad throws.

I don't think it's very accurate to say that there is a simple way to improve his performance, such as "the coaches need to make him take more chances and throw the ball deep more often". That could easily lead to more INTs.

If there is a "simple" way to explain what he and the coaches need to do, it would involve giving him more experience.

Also, I strongly disagree with the assertion that the coaches are preventing him from throwing the ball deep more often right now...he does. I see him looking downfield and not finding an open receiver, I see him missing open receivers downfield too. Neither of those things is directly related to coaching, they are clearly more related to experience than anything else.


Childress was quoted just this past week saying he wants Weeden to "keep firing." Weeden is looking downfield, but I think teams now know that Gordon can fly and Little isn't really a deep threat. Would be nice for them to call some double moves with Gordon to help out here.


I agree, we just don't know if Gordon is developed enough to get it done.

It's possible that they don't call more plays that invlove a double move for Gordon because he hasn't shown a good ability to do it yet. I certainly see him getting a little better every week though.

Maybe if Benji is healthy enough to be more involved, we can see more explosive passing plays soon.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...


The article was fair and balanced.

I simply take from it what I have believed from the beginning, and don't get my hopes up.

Not a complete project, but a project nonetheless.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...


The article was fair and balanced.

I simply take from it what I have believed from the beginning, and don't get my hopes up.

Not a complete project, but a project nonetheless.


You mean he's playing like a rookie QB with a lame duck coach?

You don't say.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 4992
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...


The article was fair and balanced.


I simply take from it what I have believed from the beginning, and don't get my hopes up.

Not a complete project, but a project nonetheless.


You mean he's playing like a rookie QB with a lame duck coach?

You don't say.


Yeah, You do still have to grant a learning curve to any rookie QB, no matter his age. Weeden has the tools, that is a heck of a start. He doesn't look comfortable in this offense yet, and he will probably be learning a new one next year anyway. I don't think the west coast offense would be his 1st choice. I notice on a lot of plays the receivers run their routes and stop. Yeah, Weeden may have missed his opportunity to hit them when he had the chance but you have to keep fighting to get open, even if it's improvised. Our offensive line often gives them enough time to accomplish this. Heck, i'd guess 50% of Rothlisbergers big plays are made that way.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...


The article was fair and balanced.

I simply take from it what I have believed from the beginning, and don't get my hopes up.

Not a complete project, but a project nonetheless.


Quote:
2. Weeden's throw quality was poor.

Stat: On a scale of 1 (lousy) to 3 (expected for NFL QB) to 5 (superb), Weeden averaged 2.78 on 32 graded throws. Three were not graded because of their throwaway nature.

The skinny: A a quarterback averaging below 3.0 is not providing enough help, especially against a playoff contender on the road. Weeden managed just one 5 -- the 17-yard TD pass to Watson -- and had three 1's and 10 2's.

Coming out of a bye week, Weeden said his arm felt fresh. Perhaps that explains why the already strong-armed quarterback was wild high on a handful of throws. Weeden's accuracy this season has been substandard, but none of his games has featured as many high balls.


Manoloff's articles are often very emotionally driven instead of fact driven, this one is no exception.

He actually graded Weeden's throw quality as poor despite him completing 20 of 35 passes for 2 TDs and no INTs.

Why is he wrong?

1. Incomplete passes are not simply "poor quality" by default, nor were many of Weeden's incomplete passes even a function of "throwing quality". I remember at least one drop and maybe 3 passes defended...all on good quality throws

2. He admits that the TD pass to Watson was high because that is where it needed to be thrown due to coverage, but fails to realize that on the pass to Gordon. I agree that the pass to Cribbs was not a good throw.

3. His whole premise of "3" being "expected for NFL QB" seems to assume that an average NFL QB throws to spots on the field and not to a receiver being defended by other players. Otherwise, he needs to explain how his "grades" account for throwing against a zone or into double coverage. Romo threw more than a few balls that his receiver had to go get, by the way...which is how you play.

4. I would buy a lower rating of his decision making and timing, especially since he missed a few open receivers AND his timing seemed to be off on that fade to Cameron on 4th and goal. See, not the throw folks...dude caught the freakin throw.

My opinion would be that well over half of Weeden's throws would be "average NFL quality" or higher.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Here's a good article by Dennis Manoloff that says "no", at least not yet.

And given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/11/brandon_weeden_report_card_wee_7.html


The negative slant on that article is almost as bad as the further negative slant you are putting on it...


The article was fair and balanced.

I simply take from it what I have believed from the beginning, and don't get my hopes up.

Not a complete project, but a project nonetheless.


Quote:
2. Weeden's throw quality was poor.

Stat: On a scale of 1 (lousy) to 3 (expected for NFL QB) to 5 (superb), Weeden averaged 2.78 on 32 graded throws. Three were not graded because of their throwaway nature.

The skinny: A a quarterback averaging below 3.0 is not providing enough help, especially against a playoff contender on the road. Weeden managed just one 5 -- the 17-yard TD pass to Watson -- and had three 1's and 10 2's.

Coming out of a bye week, Weeden said his arm felt fresh. Perhaps that explains why the already strong-armed quarterback was wild high on a handful of throws. Weeden's accuracy this season has been substandard, but none of his games has featured as many high balls.


Manoloff's articles are often very emotionally driven instead of fact driven, this one is no exception.

He actually graded Weeden's throw quality as poor despite him completing 20 of 35 passes for 2 TDs and no INTs.

Why is he wrong?

1. Incomplete passes are not simply "poor quality" by default, nor were many of Weeden's incomplete passes even a function of "throwing quality". I remember at least one drop and maybe 3 passes defended...all on good quality throws

2. He admits that the TD pass to Watson was high because that is where it needed to be thrown due to coverage, but fails to realize that on the pass to Gordon. I agree that the pass to Cribbs was not a good throw.

3. His whole premise of "3" being "expected for NFL QB" seems to assume that an average NFL QB throws to spots on the field and not to a receiver being defended by other players. Otherwise, he needs to explain how his "grades" account for throwing against a zone or into double coverage. Romo threw more than a few balls that his receiver had to go get, by the way...which is how you play.

4. I would buy a lower rating of his decision making and timing, especially since he missed a few open receivers AND his timing seemed to be off on that fade to Cameron on 4th and goal. See, not the throw folks...dude caught the freakin throw.

My opinion would be that well over half of Weeden's throws would be "average NFL quality" or higher.


Little and Gordon bailed him with some excellent catches. Richardson did pretty well in the that regard, and had a pretty solid all round game.

The O-Line did alright and the only drop I recall was one by Watson.

So you are saying...what?

Do you think Weeden had a good game?

If so, why didn't we put up more points...why didn't we win?
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On a scale of 1 (lousy) to 3 (expected for NFL QB) to 5 (superb), Weeden averaged 2.78 on 32 graded throws.


Soooo.... a 3 is expected for a NFL starter, and Weedon (rookie) just threw for 2.78 against the Cowboys,

and this means that...

bruceb wrote:
given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:



whatever Rolling Eyes


I'll take 20/35 for 2 tds and no picks most any sunday.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
Quote:
On a scale of 1 (lousy) to 3 (expected for NFL QB) to 5 (superb), Weeden averaged 2.78 on 32 graded throws.


Soooo.... a 3 is expected for a NFL starter, and Weedon (rookie) just threw for 2.78 against the Cowboys,

and this means that...

bruceb wrote:
given the sheer number of corrections/adjustments needed, imho, probably not anytime soon, if ever:



whatever Rolling Eyes


I'll take 20/35 for 2 tds and no picks most any sunday.


Well, you just got it...and another "L" while the rest of the O did alright.
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