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amazingandre


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Elkhorn, WI
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
lumberjackchris wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
Jacobys Homey wrote:
Oh, and before whoever else tries to blame this on Marciano, I would love to hear how it is a coordinators fault that a guy runs in circles, hesitates, has trouble fielding a punt cleanly, etc.


I'm not going to blame Joe, but Trindon is clearly getting lanes in Denver that he never saw in Houston. Same with Jacoby Jones. Sherrick McManis has also been a ST monster for Chicago as well.

There has got to be a reason why these guys can feast well elsewhere, but famine out here. Again, not saying it's Joe, but something/someone is wrong in Houston.


If we are widely considered one of the deeper teams in the NFL, our ST should be one of the best. Plain and Simple.


That's kind of my take on it as well. The biggest compliment this team gets is how deep we are, how we're one of the most balanced teams in the NFL this year. Given that, we SHOULD have one of the better ST units out there, as guys who could be starters elsewhere are actually getting the bulk of their snaps on ST.

Yet...well, our ST units don't reflect that. Why?


scheme
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lumberjackchris


Joined: 14 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
lumberjackchris wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
Jacobys Homey wrote:
Oh, and before whoever else tries to blame this on Marciano, I would love to hear how it is a coordinators fault that a guy runs in circles, hesitates, has trouble fielding a punt cleanly, etc.


I'm not going to blame Joe, but Trindon is clearly getting lanes in Denver that he never saw in Houston. Same with Jacoby Jones. Sherrick McManis has also been a ST monster for Chicago as well.

There has got to be a reason why these guys can feast well elsewhere, but famine out here. Again, not saying it's Joe, but something/someone is wrong in Houston.


If we are widely considered one of the deeper teams in the NFL, our ST should be one of the best. Plain and Simple.


That's kind of my take on it as well. The biggest compliment this team gets is how deep we are, how we're one of the most balanced teams in the NFL this year. Given that, we SHOULD have one of the better ST units out there, as guys who could be starters elsewhere are actually getting the bulk of their snaps on ST.

Yet...well, our ST units don't reflect that. Why?


scheme


aka coaching
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Texansfan713


Joined: 24 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marco79 wrote:
Jacoby just took one to the house. Laughing


...and Vickers just caught a pass.

Laughing Shocked
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lumberjackchris


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Shelley Smith is leading the Rams in their upset bid over the 9ers!
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amazingandre


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watch the guys blocking the gunners on our punt return team, they are TERRIBLE. Didn't we use to double both gunners? Pretty sure we do not do that anymore.

Our gunners have seemed to be slightly better as of late.

Our kick return game is terrible, not sure why, but I bet it is more the blocking scheme than the players. Once that rule was implemented (can't have more than 2 guys locked together on kickoff returns) we have seemed to be just awful on kick returns. Seems like Joe has not adapted.
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Marco79


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
lumberjackchris wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
Jacobys Homey wrote:
Oh, and before whoever else tries to blame this on Marciano, I would love to hear how it is a coordinators fault that a guy runs in circles, hesitates, has trouble fielding a punt cleanly, etc.


I'm not going to blame Joe, but Trindon is clearly getting lanes in Denver that he never saw in Houston. Same with Jacoby Jones. Sherrick McManis has also been a ST monster for Chicago as well.

There has got to be a reason why these guys can feast well elsewhere, but famine out here. Again, not saying it's Joe, but something/someone is wrong in Houston.


If we are widely considered one of the deeper teams in the NFL, our ST should be one of the best. Plain and Simple.


That's kind of my take on it as well. The biggest compliment this team gets is how deep we are, how we're one of the most balanced teams in the NFL this year. Given that, we SHOULD have one of the better ST units out there, as guys who could be starters elsewhere are actually getting the bulk of their snaps on ST.

Yet...well, our ST units don't reflect that. Why?


scheme


It's because special teams is a talent of its own and just because you have depth doesn't mean you have good special teams. It is so ridiculous how lightly people take Special Teams they matter a lot and not anyone is good at it and we are proof of it.
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Grasspike


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, Football Outsiders ranks our special teams unit dead last in the NFL
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jargin


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly we moved on from Jacoby who was providing as many drops and fumbles as big returns.

We also decided to end the Holliday experiment due to other needs on the roster. Barrett Ruud was in the game today and we may bring Sharpton back. Plus with Tate out we needed to include Grimes and Demps has been an important player for us to have in the mix both on defense and special teams.

Its like Apollo said one time; we don't really need a great returner. What we can live with is a guy who takes a knee in the endzone, makes fair catches and decent returns on punts without turning the ball over and just getting off the field cleanly so that the offense that is filled with pro bowlers can do what they do best. We have a great offense. We just need to give them the ball with decent field position.
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ServantofYHWH


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For as many big plays as holiday will give, he'll give just as many away to opposing teams. Juxtapose that with him taking up a roster spot just for returns. I'm still fine with letting him go.
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texandominance


Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 4642
Location: Duluth, Mn
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if anyone know but Jacoby also took one to the house! :)

We didn't make a mistake, Trindon was terrible here and didn't deserve his roster spot. Plus the TD today should have been a fumble and a touchback.
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kenney


Joined: 24 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(typing with one hand here)

FWIW, our coverage was basically outstanding all game. This was our best day on special teams by a long shot.
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
Our kick return game is terrible, not sure why, but I bet it is more the blocking scheme than the players. Once that rule was implemented (can't have more than 2 guys locked together on kickoff returns) we have seemed to be just awful on kick returns. Seems like Joe has not adapted.


This is an interesting take on this, because it rings true - seems like our return game took a hit when this rule was implemented a few seasons back. I think the last year they allowed it was the year Andre Davis took two kicks back to the house, right?

Marco wrote:
It's because special teams is a talent of its own and just because you have depth doesn't mean you have good special teams. It is so ridiculous how lightly people take Special Teams they matter a lot and not anyone is good at it and we are proof of it.

I won't disagree with this, but WHY don't we have the guys with these talents? Not like you find these sort of players in the draft (unless it is someone who busted out at their original position - think Devin Thomas of the Redskins/Giants). When was the last time you saw a guy drafted strictly based on their containment ability on ST?

For comparisons sake, I can't remember ST ever being such a weakness in any year of the Texans existance. Sure, we never had it as THE strength of this team, but I don't think we were ever in the 30s on this - for the most part, our coverage units and return units were middle of the pack. Why is this not the case this year? Does moving Tim Dobbins from ST to starter on D have THAT much of an impact?
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EliteTexan80 wrote:
I wanna be a mod.

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Marco79


Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I won't disagree with this, but WHY don't we have the guys with these talents? Not like you find these sort of players in the draft (unless it is someone who busted out at their original position - think Devin Thomas of the Redskins/Giants). When was the last time you saw a guy drafted strictly based on their containment ability on ST?

I definitely think players draft guys for special teams sometimes, but more often or not they look for UDFAs. But for example, Sherrick McManis, purely picked to be a Special Teamer. There is no way that they drafted him to be a starting CB in this league, especially cause they refused to move him to safety when everyone said that he can't play CB in this league, he has to play safety. The reason they did this was because they didn't care, he wasn't going to play CB for us ever (he only saw snaps on rare occasions in blowouts) but they put him right on special teams and he excelled. And you Devin Thomas example, you are right they don't draft for special teams that high, but when drafting him they most definitely discussed his special team ability, but that wasn't the sole purpose of us drafting him. In the later rounds is when you see it, I think.

And I think our downfall of special teams has been a mix of things.

First off, Jacoby was a great returner he found gaps that weren't there and he made the unit look good.

Second off, we get rid of guys like McManis who are amazing at special teams, lost Daryl Sharpton to injury, Tim Dobbins gets promoted etc.

Third off, I do think it is partly Marciano's fault.
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amazingandre


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EliteTexan80 wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
Our kick return game is terrible, not sure why, but I bet it is more the blocking scheme than the players. Once that rule was implemented (can't have more than 2 guys locked together on kickoff returns) we have seemed to be just awful on kick returns. Seems like Joe has not adapted.


This is an interesting take on this, because it rings true - seems like our return game took a hit when this rule was implemented a few seasons back. I think the last year they allowed it was the year Andre Davis took two kicks back to the house, right?

Marco wrote:
It's because special teams is a talent of its own and just because you have depth doesn't mean you have good special teams. It is so ridiculous how lightly people take Special Teams they matter a lot and not anyone is good at it and we are proof of it.

I won't disagree with this, but WHY don't we have the guys with these talents? Not like you find these sort of players in the draft (unless it is someone who busted out at their original position - think Devin Thomas of the Redskins/Giants). When was the last time you saw a guy drafted strictly based on their containment ability on ST?

For comparisons sake, I can't remember ST ever being such a weakness in any year of the Texans existance. Sure, we never had it as THE strength of this team, but I don't think we were ever in the 30s on this - for the most part, our coverage units and return units were middle of the pack. Why is this not the case this year? Does moving Tim Dobbins from ST to starter on D have THAT much of an impact?



you mean like our part time special team player Brandon Harris who was drafted in rd 2?
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
EliteTexan80 wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
Our kick return game is terrible, not sure why, but I bet it is more the blocking scheme than the players. Once that rule was implemented (can't have more than 2 guys locked together on kickoff returns) we have seemed to be just awful on kick returns. Seems like Joe has not adapted.


This is an interesting take on this, because it rings true - seems like our return game took a hit when this rule was implemented a few seasons back. I think the last year they allowed it was the year Andre Davis took two kicks back to the house, right?

Marco wrote:
It's because special teams is a talent of its own and just because you have depth doesn't mean you have good special teams. It is so ridiculous how lightly people take Special Teams they matter a lot and not anyone is good at it and we are proof of it.

I won't disagree with this, but WHY don't we have the guys with these talents? Not like you find these sort of players in the draft (unless it is someone who busted out at their original position - think Devin Thomas of the Redskins/Giants). When was the last time you saw a guy drafted strictly based on their containment ability on ST?

For comparisons sake, I can't remember ST ever being such a weakness in any year of the Texans existance. Sure, we never had it as THE strength of this team, but I don't think we were ever in the 30s on this - for the most part, our coverage units and return units were middle of the pack. Why is this not the case this year? Does moving Tim Dobbins from ST to starter on D have THAT much of an impact?



you mean like our part time special team player Brandon Harris who was drafted in rd 2?


Let's not pretend that Harris wasn't drafted to take over for Brice McCain, who was an anomaly going into that season and was considered an eventual cut one of these days; Yes, McCain really came into his own in 2011, but that was after the selection. Harris was supposed to be starting in some form or fasion for this team, whether it be as the NCB or as insurance against Kareem Jackson not developing as a #2 CB.

Harris is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I brought up Devin Thomas of Washington. Guy wasn't drafted to be a gunner and ST guy, he eventually morphed into one because he didn't develop into that player we expected.

I'll concede to Marco79; Sherrick McManis and maybe even Shiloh Keo were drafted due to their ST abilities (or percieved abilities, as I believe both were starters in college and had no tangible experience at ST when they were drafted. Someone feel free to fact check me on this one...Keo might of been an ST guy at Iowa, but I think the most McManis did on ST is a few returns, not coverage).

I just have issues with a unit with actual pieces for a strong ST unit looking so poor right now. Bryan Brahman IS a good ST player. Alan Ball IS a good ST player. Trindon Holliday WAS a good return guy, and he's proving it. Someone has to be held accountable for this lack of performance as of late, despite having the tools needed to field a solid unit. Much like Frank Bush and his failing defense (despite having solid core pieces to use in his gameplan) Joe Marciano HAS to be held accountable for the miscues of this unit as a whole. I won't criticize him for the personnel decisions - as stated, McManis was on his way out, Jones simply couldn't be expected to be a Texan and survive the wrath of the fans, Trindon got caught up in a numbers game following the loss of Brian Cuhsing - the reasons for these players being cut is pretty clear. Marciano isn't the GM of this team, and I doubt he's got much of a voice in personnel decisions. However, when they WERE here, why didn't they play as they are playing now in Chicago, Baltimore and Denver? Remember that BOTH Holliday and McManis were STPOW last week, and AFC STPOW will probably be between Jones and Holliday.

THAT is where Marciano needs to have his feet held to the fire. He had the pieces - heck, he STILL has the pieces if you value Brahman, Ball, Roc Carmichael and a guy who has made some good plays so far on ST, DeVier Posey. So, despite having talent that is good enough to get the job done to have a middle-of-the-pack unit, why do we have the WORST unit?
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