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footy_29


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
My only question is that the Y receiver that actually ran the post looked like the only deep WR in which Wilson thought that he would cover him. But Edwards ran an out and up. Which Hall didnt read and pushed him as an out pattern and jumped the flat route, instead of covering his portion of the field.


Not necessarily. If DeAngelo has the flat, he stayed long enough on Edwards until he was out of his zone, and then closed on Olsen.

Knowing that it was cover-3, this is on Josh Wilson pretty clearly; he had eyes on the receiver running the post, and you should be watching the field/quarterback in a zone.

Haslett said they went over the play several times in practice...either it's not being taught well or Wilson was not dialed in.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
well,, this story kinda pins it on Wilson ..
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/6/redskins-pierre-garcon-foot-injury-surgery-sundber/


From the above article:
Quote:
Wilson was responsible for that deep third of the field. Haslett absolved London Fletcher and DeAngelo Hall of blame on the play.


Looks like I was wrong. If it was three deep, Wilson simply followed the post when he should have passed it off to Williams and stayed in his third.


So if that is the case then wtf is Josh Wilson doing out there? Does he not understand Cover 3. And if he doesn't then why is he playing???

My only question is that the Y receiver that actually ran the post looked like the only deep WR in which Wilson thought that he would cover him. But Edwards ran an out and up. Which Hall didnt read and pushed him as an out pattern and jumped the flat route, instead of covering his portion of the field.

If our defense is making those kinds of mistakes, that is a coaching problem. That is a gameplan problem. And the bigger problem is that Wilson is to blame and that is another big play that he has given up this season.

D. Hall sucks.

J. Wilson sucks.

Revis on a crutch is better than those two combined.

Our secondary really needs an overhaul, IMO.

I dont know. I see teams rebuild in 3 years or less and we seem to be on the 21+ year plan. This is getting preposterous. Something has to shake soon.
i don't think the players are executing what's called. This is an example, major mistake by Wilson. He blew the coverage and there wasn't communication. A coach can't execute the play for the player also.
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
well,, this story kinda pins it on Wilson ..
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/6/redskins-pierre-garcon-foot-injury-surgery-sundber/


From the above article:
Quote:
Wilson was responsible for that deep third of the field. Haslett absolved London Fletcher and DeAngelo Hall of blame on the play.


Looks like I was wrong. If it was three deep, Wilson simply followed the post when he should have passed it off to Williams and stayed in his third.


So if that is the case then wtf is Josh Wilson doing out there? Does he not understand Cover 3. And if he doesn't then why is he playing???

My only question is that the Y receiver that actually ran the post looked like the only deep WR in which Wilson thought that he would cover him. But Edwards ran an out and up. Which Hall didnt read and pushed him as an out pattern and jumped the flat route, instead of covering his portion of the field.

If our defense is making those kinds of mistakes, that is a coaching problem. That is a gameplan problem. And the bigger problem is that Wilson is to blame and that is another big play that he has given up this season.

D. Hall sucks.

J. Wilson sucks.

Revis on a crutch is better than those two combined.

Our secondary really needs an overhaul, IMO.

I dont know. I see teams rebuild in 3 years or less and we seem to be on the 21+ year plan. This is getting preposterous. Something has to shake soon.
i don't think the players are executing what's called. This is an example, major mistake by Wilson. He blew the coverage and there wasn't communication. A coach can't execute the play for the player also.


Took the words right out of my mouth...

I know they coaches are taking a lot of heat for whats going on and to a degree its not all on them as explained on this busted play.

If they are preparing and practicing what is called all week. Its like London Feltcher said in one of his interviews last week: "Guys are not handling their responsibilities, they are trying to cover for other guys and not staying disciplined within the scheme. If its cover 3 Josh Wilson is supposed to drop straight back and cover his half of the field. Why he was even running with the post is unexplainable if Cover 3 was called. The post becomes the FS responsibility.

What would really help this secondary is a leader on the field in the secondary particularly a safety. Madieu Williams, should not be on this roster next year. Hall may not be for salary cap reason and Wilson needs to re-evaluate his play because he has played awful this year and has regressed in the scheme IMO. Good news about Merriweather hopefully we can see if he will make a difference at the SS spot. I know he has a lot of range, can cath, and lay a hat on opposing players. We'll see if he can regain his pro-bowl form for us since he is back at his natural position.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's start with the quote from Jim Haslett:
Quote:
“We were just playing a three-deep coverage, and they ran a switch rail route. We worked it all week, and we just didn’t see it right,” Haslett said. “Our corner didn’t come off the play exactly the way we should’ve played it. And we still should’ve tackled [Edwards] for about a 20-yard gain.” ... Haslett absolved London Fletcher and De' Hall of blame on the play."

Alright, so how do we read that? De' Hall was right to cut the Y-slot rec'r loose and break on the TE, who ran a 2yd rte to the flat? I'm sorry but if that's true then Haslett has to shoulder at least some, if not most of the blame. Apart from assuming, how is De' Hall suppose to know that the X-slot hasn't taken Josh Wilson vertical on a go rte? The argument is that Wilson is at fault because he got pulled too far to the inside, but what if he had been run off deep? Who would've been responsible for Edwards being wide open then? The X-slot runs Wilson out of the intermediate zone, so this play was going for decent yardage anyway, just as Haslett acknowledges. The X-slot breaks to the post at 11yds, which is key. If he breaks hard and takes that rte over the middle, Wilson would've cut him loose and been in a position to make a play on Edwards. But as mike23md notes, he ran a post rte, which deliberately straddles the seam, stringing Wilson out as long as possible.

I agree that Wilson could've broken off sooner, but only by a step or two and I question whether it would've made any difference. If Wilson breaks off his coverage when he needed to, then it's the X-slot who ends up wide open. Madieu Williams is late to that side of his coverage. Holding him may have been the Z-slot (Steve Smith) who also broke to the deep middle. Fact of the matter is that while one rec'r was vacating Wilson's area of responsibility, another (Edwards) was entering! Wilson didn't accept responsibility for the breakdown & I don't think he should. To my mind, the breakdown centers around De' Hall. Given that Haslett absolved him of any blame, you then have to consider the scheme.
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brandonb2005


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Let's start with the quote from Jim Haslett:
Quote:
“We were just playing a three-deep coverage, and they ran a switch rail route. We worked it all week, and we just didn’t see it right,” Haslett said. “Our corner didn’t come off the play exactly the way we should’ve played it. And we still should’ve tackled [Edwards] for about a 20-yard gain.” ... Haslett absolved London Fletcher and De' Hall of blame on the play."

Alright, so how do we read that? De' Hall was right to cut the Y-slot rec'r loose and break on the TE, who ran a 2yd rte to the flat? I'm sorry but if that's true then Haslett has to shoulder at least some, if not most of the blame. Apart from assuming, how is De' Hall suppose to know that the X-slot hasn't taken Josh Wilson vertical on a go rte? The argument is that Wilson is at fault because he got pulled too far to the inside, but what if he had been run off deep? Who would've been responsible for Edwards being wide open then? The X-slot runs Wilson out of the intermediate zone, so this play was going for decent yardage anyway, just as Haslett acknowledges. The X-slot breaks to the post at 11yds, which is key. If he breaks hard and takes that rte over the middle, Wilson would've cut him loose and been in a position to make a play on Edwards. But as mike23md notes, he ran a post rte, which deliberately straddles the seam, stringing Wilson out as long as possible.

I agree that Wilson could've broken off sooner, but only by a step or two and I question whether it would've made any difference. If Wilson breaks off his coverage when he needed to, then it's the X-slot who ends up wide open. Madieu Williams is late to that side of his coverage. Holding him may have been the Z-slot (Steve Smith) who also broke to the deep middle. Fact of the matter is that while one rec'r was vacating Wilson's area of responsibility, another (Edwards) was entering! Wilson didn't accept responsibility for the breakdown & I don't think he should. To my mind, the breakdown centers around De' Hall. Given that Haslett absolved him of any blame, you then have to consider the scheme.


What you are saying doesn't make any sense. 3 deep or cover 3 is played with both outside corners dropping back playing the deep zones (1 on the left hash, 1 on the right hash, and the safety playing the middle hashes. D.Hall's responsibility is the flats, he stayed disciplined and picked up the man that entered his zone. No matter what route the receivers run you have to play what is called. Its when people free-lance or try to do to much that gives up big plays. Which is what Josh Wilson did. He was no where near his zone area once the pass was completed, which resulted in a 20yrd completion going for 60yrds after the catch.

everyone was in the right position except Wilson, he got caught in Madieu Williams zone (2 defenders in the same spot is not a good sign when running zone coverages). They gave them a man look pre-snap and Wilson stayed with his man too long or maybe he didnt even know we were playing Cover 3 because that's sure what it looked like.

I hear your argument about the two outside WR's running post and one running deep which "would've" left one WR clear to the sidelines once he cleared the safety's zone (probably Steve Smith. But at the same time that would have took a long time to develop and we PROBABLY would have at least got to him or pressured him, giving the time it takes to run a post to the opposite sideline.

Josh Wilson is at fault here, not D.Hall. When playing zones they teach you not to cover grass and to pick up on the man when he enters your zone which is what D.Hall did, he trusted that Wilson was behind him and he wasn't. From the calcification and looks of the play it looked like Wilson just was confused on the call.


Last edited by brandonb2005 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that we are forgetting is that DeAngelo Williams was a play action decoy and stayed in to block. This held both Hall and Fletcher and made them stay up. This is why Hall was late to get to Olsen and which may have also prevented Wilson from recognizing that it was a pass and he needed to stay in his 1/3 zone coverage. If he stays, its an INT.

The point is that Edwards broke out late on Hall and broke up after Hall released him and entered the Wilson zone after Wilson and the Y receiver broke on the post.

IMO, its all of the secondary fault and they need to work on communication and coverage assignments and staying at home!!!!
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brandonb2005


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
One thing that we are forgetting is that DeAngelo Williams was a play action decoy and stayed in to block. This held both Hall and Fletcher and made them stay up. This is why Hall was late to get to Olsen and which may have also prevented Wilson from recognizing that it was a pass and he needed to stay in his 1/3 zone coverage. If he stays, its an INT.

The point is that Edwards broke out late on Hall and broke up after Hall released him and entered the Wilson zone after Wilson and the Y receiver broke on the post.

IMO, its all of the secondary fault and they need to work on communication and coverage assignments and staying at home!!!!


It wasn't the whole secondaries fault Mike, it was a delayed Loop routeThe slot WR(Edwards) ran a delayed loop route. Instead of running straight up the seam he ran straight to the left off the line and Murphy ran straight. Edwards peeled up field once Josh cleared and ran straight up the sideline un-accounted for. If Wilson passes his man of to the safety in deep zone he is sitting right there for a pick 6!

I'm not understanding how you guys are seeing this being anybody else fault other then Wilson. He was playing man coverage everyone else was in their zone.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:
3 deep or cover 3 is played with both outside corners dropping back playing the deep zones (1 on the left hash, 1 on the right hash, and the safety playing the middle hashes. ... He was nowhere near his zone area once the pass was completed... Josh Wilson is at fault here, not D. Hall.

I'm afraid you missed the point completely. In this situation, if the X-slot (Louis Murphy) runs a deep vertical down the sideline, who's responsible for covering him? The answer of course, is Josh Wilson. If Murphy had done exactly that (taking Wilson deep), who wouldn't been responsible for Armanti Edwards? What kind of scheme has Hall assuming Murphy will run a cross? Saying it would've taken longer for the play to develop, essentially taking longer for Edwards to get open, isn't true. Nor is your contention that Wilson had left his area of responsibility. His last two steps before reversing his field brought him close to the hash mark, but he wasn't in Williams area. Fact is, he would've had to leave Murphy wide open in order to make a play on Edwards. I didn't place blame on De' Hall, but rather the cover scheme. However, I find it ridiculous that they're paying Hall the kind of money they're paying him & his responsibility on that play was the TE in the flat.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely Wilson's fault. Makes me really disappointed because he's supposed to be our best coverage DB. He made a huge mistake.
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brandonb2005


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
brandonb2005 wrote:
3 deep or cover 3 is played with both outside corners dropping back playing the deep zones (1 on the left hash, 1 on the right hash, and the safety playing the middle hashes. ... He was nowhere near his zone area once the pass was completed... Josh Wilson is at fault here, not D. Hall.

I'm afraid you missed the point completely. In this situation, if the X-slot (Louis Murphy) runs a deep vertical down the sideline, who's responsible for covering him? The answer of course, is Josh Wilson. If Murphy had done exactly that (taking Wilson deep), who wouldn't been responsible for Armanti Edwards? What kind of scheme has Hall assuming Murphy will run a cross? Saying it would've taken longer for the play to develop, essentially taking longer for Edwards to get open, isn't true. Nor is your contention that Wilson had left his area of responsibility. His last two steps before reversing his field brought him close to the hash mark, but he wasn't in Williams area. Fact is, he would've had to leave Murphy wide open in order to make a play on Edwards. I didn't place blame on De' Hall, but rather the cover scheme. However, I find it ridiculous that they're paying Hall the kind of money they're paying him & his responsibility on that play was the TE in the flat.


I believe you are on a completely different page in understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are arguing the coverage call correct?

I was trying to get you to understand the responsibilities of the coverage and let you know that Hall was in the right place and the big gain wasn't in no way his fault (this time). You are saying what if both WR's (Murphy and Edwards) ran verticals then who is supposed to cover who?

That simply will never happen 99.9% of the time, you cant say "what if's" about a football play that you almost will never see. The slot WR and the outside WR will never run twin verticals on a PA pass. You are defeating yourself at that point because the ball still has to travel in the air and the CB should be able to make a play on the ball no matter if its 2 WR's streaking down field because they will be so close to each other. Also zone concepts teach you to rotate if nobody is in your area ("never cover grass" is what my coaches used to tell me). Your supposed to grab the closes man to you while still being able to drop back into your zone if someone enters it. You have to have great communication and discipline to play zones.

Halls responsibility in cover 3 is the flat if he is the inside corner back. London Fletcher's responsibility is the short to intermediate middle.

Hass had the perfect Defense called for that play to be covered but Josh Wilson blew the coverage by basically playing man defense on a WR who wasn't even a factor in the game. Murphy had zero catches at that point in the game, maybe 1.


Last edited by brandonb2005 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:


Hass had the perfect Defense called for that play to be covered but Josh Wilson blew the coverage but basically playing man defense on a WR who wasn't even a factor in the game. Murphy had zero catches at that point in the game, maybe 1.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the reader who already understands my point, I expand the argument a bit in third paragraph.

brandonb2005 wrote:
You are saying what if both WR's (Murphy and Edwards) ran verticals then who is supposed to cover who?

No, this isn't what I said & I'll explain it a third time. I'm sorry but Carolina found the hole in Haslett's coverage on this play. I know, I know, the great bambino says something different. Just because Jim Haslett throws Josh Wilson under the bus doesn't mean what he says is true. Here's the part you & others apparently, are failing to see: even if I were to agree that Wilson stuck with Murphy too long, the coverage is still exploitable! Again, I meant that Edwards would run exactly the rte that he did, an out & up. The only variable that I'm adding is that rather than have Murphy run a post rte, he'd run a deep vertical instead. In that situation who is suppose to cover Murphy deep downfield? Given that there wasn't any help behind Josh Wilson, it's obviously his responsibility! Which leaves who exactly to cover Edwards?

By design, De' Hall can easily be sucked up into the short zone and Wilson can be run off deep, creating a huge vacuum in the intermediate zone along the sideline, which is exactly what happened anyway! Can you see it now? Let's turn back to what actually occurred. The only thing Josh Wilson failed to do was to cover two WRs at the same time! Edwards is cut loose by Hall pretty quickly & there no way that Wilson could've just cut Murphy loose to make a play on Edwards. Even Jim Haslett concedes that the play should've yielded at most, 20yds! As you well know, offenses run these combination rtes through zone coverage all the time. One rec'r like Murphy, heads straight for the seam, pulling the defender with him and no sooner does he do that, in sneaks another rec'r, like Edwards, right behind him. This happens all the time, in every NFL game! And that's exactly what happened on this play. It was what's often referred to as an overload.

It appeared to me that Cam Newton was staring downfield in Josh Wilson's direction the whole time. He may have checked Hall initially, but by the time he throws the ball his focus is entirely on Josh Wilson. He never looks at Greg Olsen in the flat nor does the poor play-fake have anything to do with the breakdown in coverage. That's just it, there was no breakdown, the problem was the scheme itself. We go on & on about the personnel in this secondary & yet as we've seen so many times before, they're asked to cover a lot of ground. Carolina has a big QB with a cannon of an arm and they were in a multi-rec'r set (3) on this play. They lined 2 WRs & the TE to the weak side. With all the trouble this secondary is having, why is De' Hall covering the TE in the flat? Isn't that an area of the field you'd tend to see the OLB cover? Now, because there were 3 WRs, there was no OLB to that side. But we see from the presnap image that both ILBs are shifted that way.

Greg Olsen immediately releases into the pattern, the OL in pass-protection mode. The run action is unconvincing to say the least. If London Fletcher is too slow to honor run & then get out there to get after Olsen, then put Keenan Robinson on the field! As it was, Fletcher covers nobody on the play! This beleaguered group needs every member of the back end to cover THE BACK END!!! Oh, the secondary sucks... Yeah, maybe they do but this again was not a reflection of someone's physical limitation in the secondary. This notion that the team has to dump tens of millions of dollars into the secondary to resolve what's wrong is completely false! Guess who the Panthers LT was blocking on this play. Kedric Golston!!! lol... What a joke!
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:
mike23md wrote:
One thing that we are forgetting is that DeAngelo Williams was a play action decoy and stayed in to block. This held both Hall and Fletcher and made them stay up. This is why Hall was late to get to Olsen and which may have also prevented Wilson from recognizing that it was a pass and he needed to stay in his 1/3 zone coverage. If he stays, its an INT.

The point is that Edwards broke out late on Hall and broke up after Hall released him and entered the Wilson zone after Wilson and the Y receiver broke on the post.

IMO, its all of the secondary fault and they need to work on communication and coverage assignments and staying at home!!!!


It wasn't the whole secondaries fault Mike, it was a delayed Loop routeThe slot WR(Edwards) ran a delayed loop route. Instead of running straight up the seam he ran straight to the left off the line and Murphy ran straight. Edwards peeled up field once Josh cleared and ran straight up the sideline un-accounted for. If Wilson passes his man of to the safety in deep zone he is sitting right there for a pick 6!

I'm not understanding how you guys are seeing this being anybody else fault other then Wilson. He was playing man coverage everyone else was in their zone.


I dont want to get into semantics here, but I have never heard of a loop route. There are curls, button hooks, slants, posts, flags, outs and ins, out and ups, sluggo's and hitches. I have NEVER heard of a loop route or a delayed loop route.

There is one interesting problem with this play that I will mention in a few.











Now if you watch the play, Murphy runs a 11 yard post play into Wilson's zone coverage and Williams is late to respond to pick up the cross over into the middle of the field. As Murphy runs up Wilson is only giving him a 4 yard cushion and starts to turn to run with him. Murphy breaks at 11 yards which catches Wilson in a sprint to slow and turn with Murphy.

While Murphy starts his route, Edwards actually puts his hands up to act as if he is going to engage in blocking with Hall. Selling the play action. Hall holds firm in coverage looking into the backfield and Fletcher is playing the run and is held by the play action.

Its at this point that Murphy has started to break into the middle of his post route, with Wilson covering. Williams is no where in the picture yet. At least not to make a play on the ball if the pass were to go to Murphy. Wilson breaks late to follow Murphy and doesnt realize that he has Williams in help coverage. And when he does its too late.

As Williams is running toward the coverage responsibility, I am surprised that he didnt see Edwards running past Hall and into Wilson's zone and break towards Edwards while Wilson had man coverage on Murphy. Alas, Wilson over ran his coverage and followed Murphy into the middle zone of the Cover 3. Hall played the flat and pushed Edwards off to Wilson. Williams came to help on the post by Murphy. Fletcher was held on Williams and the play action.

Newton recognizes the breakdown in coverage and lofts it up leading Edwards. The person to actually tackle Edwards was Griffin.

Steve Smith was not a factor in this coverage but warrented double coverage with Griffin and the SS which I think was Doughty.

Redskins players on the field:

Kerrigan
Jenkins
Cofield
Bowen
Fletcher
Hall
Griffin
Doughty
Williams
Wilson

Am I missing something here? That adds up to 10. Not 11. Look at the starting image of the play from LOS. And there were no deep S's. We had 10 men on the field.

So this is not just Josh Wilson's fault, but the entire defenses fault to go along with the S's who are supposed to be counting personnel.

Who is missing, well based on the coverage, it looks like Riley.

That is a big problem and why Edwards was open. It Wilson holds the zone coverage then yes, there is a chance that the play does not go for 82. But Murphy on the post would have been open and Edwards would have been in the Wilson coverage zone.

I couldnt believe it when I counted the players. If someone can show me something different I will gladly admit that I am wrong, but as I see it, there were only 10 defenders on the field. Seriously. WTF.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Madieu Williams is playing deep--he's not in that pic of 10 but you see him get blocked on the full video--He's the 11th man..
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:

Steve Smith was not a factor in this coverage but warrented double coverage with Griffin and the SS which I think was Doughty.

Redskins players on the field:

Kerrigan
Jenkins
Cofield
Bowen
Fletcher
Hall
Griffin
Doughty
Williams
Wilson

Am I missing something here? That adds up to 10. Not 11. Look at the starting image of the play from LOS. And there were no deep S's. We had 10 men on the field.

So this is not just Josh Wilson's fault, but the entire defenses fault to go along with the S's who are supposed to be counting personnel.

Who is missing, well based on the coverage, it looks like Riley.

That is a big problem and why Edwards was open. It Wilson holds the zone coverage then yes, there is a chance that the play does not go for 82. But Murphy on the post would have been open and Edwards would have been in the Wilson coverage zone.

I couldnt believe it when I counted the players. If someone can show me something different I will gladly admit that I am wrong, but as I see it, there were only 10 defenders on the field. Seriously. WTF.


Note: sure looks like #58 Addison not #59 Fletcher.

You are missing Keenan Robinson who is playing the middle. The player who you do not see in the first image is Williams. Three DL, three LBs, three CBs, two safeties - 11 are on the field.

While Williams was about 8 yards away from the receiver running the post when he made his cut, if that ball is thrown even Williams would have crushed him.

How is Wilson the only one who doesn't understand that it is zone? Goes back to what Darrell Green insinuated, Wilson is making mistakes that prevent him from being a #1 corner, it is not his athletic ability.
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