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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NickButera wrote:
Its not so cut and dry as to say "All he had to do was score and the first thing he did was throw a pick". When actually it was, all he had to do was come back from 17 points with half a quarter remaining. He led a clutch drive not once, but twice, setting himself up for a third. So yes, he failed to be clutch after being pretty dang definition of clutch twice before he let us down. The only way we were able to get in that position was from "clutch" qb play.


+1

Good post. When you give up 250 yards and 4 TDs to an opposing RB, you usually lose. However, Palmer gave us life and threw 3 4th quarter TDs and cut a 17 point deficit to just 3 points with 2 clutch drives with under 10 minutes left in the game. The interception sucks, but without him we wouldnt have even been in a position to make a comeback.


i agree except i think without the ints we would have won the game
. also like clockwork at least one of those long runs came after a int. i give cp props for not giving up.

us disappearing int the 3rd and those quick ints have always killed us. the defense gets off the field after stopping a drive, they go to the sideline for a breather. one or 2 plays later a int happens and they are back out there hella winded and they get gashed by a big run.

who is our strength and conditioning coach cause the defense always looks winded after half time. is it bad training, age or are they just on the field too much?


• As I noted in the GTD the offense is significantly more vertical. This is eerily similar to Hue's playbook with the addition of throwing to safety outlet more (ie: TE), which is fantastic btw. Kudos to the coaching staff for not doing the same things and expecting different results in regards to scoring production.

• Where I see a significant and repetitive disconnect within our fanbase regarding Palmer is with a more reward based vertical offense the Raiders are also incurring more risk. The odds of winning decreases exponentially with each consecutive series that Palmer is expected to bring the Raiders back. I guess Palmer detractors would rather not have an opportunity to win the game at all then lose it on the last drive. It's not that those pro-Palmer don't recognize the INTs.

• When playing from behind and down multiple scores the onus is on the defense to make a stop. You cannot protect the defense with ToP and expect to win. Your priority HAS to be get the points to win the game 1st. You can't WIN if you're not competitively IN the game.

• I disagree that the defense was worn down (although admittedly late game breakdowns are the MO of this defense). Specifically in this game, injuries to the interior DL yielded multiple long gains. How often is it anticipated to basically lose both NTs (TK whose only OK wasn't even that in his return after being injured by Gio) in the same game? Prob about the same odds of losing your long snapper which also cost the Raiders a game.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I think the WR corps is young and the coaching staff is calling the plays that the WRs are most comfortable with given their limited route tree or skill set. In addition, the OC needs to open up the offense earlier, not just at the conclusion of the 2nd and 4th and goodness sakes add some RBs off the waiver wire as the Raiders are perilously close to putting Pryor at emergency RB (joking). what's going on with that???
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 13890
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Specifically in this game, injuries to the interior DL yielded multiple long gains. How often is it anticipated to basically lose both NTs (TK whose only OK wasn't even that in his return after being injured by Gio) in the same game? Prob about the same odds of losing your long snapper which also cost the Raiders a game.


After looking back on the 3 long runs, i'd say the only one where the DTs were responsible was the 3rd one. Seymour getting cut blocked combined with Burris over pursuing opens the huge cut back lane. On the first one, Houston and Bryant are the DTs and while Houston gets pushed backwards badly (but it doesn't have much of an impact on that play), Bryant holds his position. The second one is an off tackle run behind a 2 TEs set, in this case, the issue is setting the edge.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14339
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NickButera wrote:
Its not so cut and dry as to say "All he had to do was score and the first thing he did was throw a pick". When actually it was, all he had to do was come back from 17 points with half a quarter remaining. He led a clutch drive not once, but twice, setting himself up for a third. So yes, he failed to be clutch after being pretty dang definition of clutch twice before he let us down. The only way we were able to get in that position was from "clutch" qb play.


+1

Good post. When you give up 250 yards and 4 TDs to an opposing RB, you usually lose. However, Palmer gave us life and threw 3 4th quarter TDs and cut a 17 point deficit to just 3 points with 2 clutch drives with under 10 minutes left in the game. The interception sucks, but without him we wouldnt have even been in a position to make a comeback.


i agree except i think without the ints we would have won the game
. also like clockwork at least one of those long runs came after a int. i give cp props for not giving up.

us disappearing int the 3rd and those quick ints have always killed us. the defense gets off the field after stopping a drive, they go to the sideline for a breather. one or 2 plays later a int happens and they are back out there hella winded and they get gashed by a big run.

who is our strength and conditioning coach cause the defense always looks winded after half time. is it bad training, age or are they just on the field too much?


• As I noted in the GTD the offense is significantly more vertical. This is eerily similar to Hue's playbook with the addition of throwing to safety outlet more (ie: TE), which is fantastic btw. Kudos to the coaching staff for not doing the same things and expecting different results in regards to scoring production.

• Where I see a significant and repetitive disconnect within our fanbase regarding Palmer is with a more reward based vertical offense the Raiders are also incurring more risk. The odds of winning decreases exponentially with each consecutive series that Palmer is expected to bring the Raiders back. I guess Palmer detractors would rather not have an opportunity to win the game at all then lose it on the last drive. It's not that those pro-Palmer don't recognize the INTs.

• When playing from behind and down multiple scores the onus is on the defense to make a stop. You cannot protect the defense with ToP and expect to win. Your priority HAS to be get the points to win the game 1st. You can't WIN if you're not competitively IN the game.

• I disagree that the defense was worn down (although admittedly late game breakdowns are the MO of this defense). Specifically in this game, injuries to the interior DL yielded multiple long gains. How often is it anticipated to basically lose both NTs (TK whose only OK wasn't even that in his return after being injured by Gio) in the same game? Prob about the same odds of losing your long snapper which also cost the Raiders a game.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I think the WR corps is young and the coaching staff is calling the plays that the WRs are most comfortable with given their limited route tree or skill set. In addition, the OC needs to open up the offense earlier, not just at the conclusion of the 2nd and 4th and goodness sakes add some RBs off the waiver wire as the Raiders are perilously close to putting Pryor at emergency RB (joking). what's going on with that???


i agree with everything and i understand the risk reward deal and our lack of protection and sucky running game. some ints are just kinda mind boggling to me. also our 3rd qtr failures are mind boggling. we have been outscored 88 to 24 in the 3rd this year. the offense can only generate a fg per 3rd qtr. imo we are always down in the 4th due to our stellar 3rd qtr play by the offense and the defense (we were up to 11th in the nfl in run d before tampa). imo if we could score some in the 3rd we could extend some drives and wouldnt need cp to play superman in the 4th.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically NCOUGH is saying he wants perfection 24/7 and no human can make "bonehead" mistakes as long as they're a vet and making a lot of money. If they're a rookie or young guy not making jack, it's OK...... He wants something that is not possible.....
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

id settle for 50-60% perfection. seeing as we are 3-5 id say we're at about 37.5% perfection.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
id settle for 50-60% perfection. seeing as we are 3-5 id say we're at about 37.5% perfection.


Yeah, I wish Carson could've stopped Martin last week. I mean, he just looked lost in the open field and missed so many tackles. Good thing he was pretty damn good as the QB of the team. I don't like him as our DTs, LBs, and Ss. He might need to stay away from playing those positions.
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Nightmare


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palmer was terrible from the start, making all those botched ST snaps in Week 1. We should have benched him then. Just not good enough, Carson.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just curious. honestly how do you guys explain us only scoring an average of a fg in the 3rd qtr? or the fact that every game that we scored in the 3rd we won.

team 3rd qtr points
sd = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
mia = 0 points (up 10-3 at half)
pitt = 7 points (down 17-14 at half) (win)
den = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
atl = 0 points (up 13- 7at half)
jax = 7 points (down 17-6 at half) (win)
kc =10 points (up 13 - 6 at half) (win)
tb =0 points (up 10-7 at half)
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dmac505


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 726
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just curious. honestly how do you guys explain us only scoring an average of a fg in the 3rd qtr? or the fact that every game that we scored in the 3rd we won.

team 3rd qtr points
sd = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
mia = 0 points (up 10-3 at half)
pitt = 7 points (down 17-14 at half) (win)
den = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
atl = 0 points (up 13- 7at half)
jax = 7 points (down 17-6 at half) (win)
kc =10 points (up 13 - 6 at half) (win)
tb =0 points (up 10-7 at half)



Coaching.
For the past few years, the raiders always seem to be in at half, and then things just fall apart. Two possible options

We never make adjustments at half while others team do.
we aren't in shape

Either or, both fall on the coaches.

But I still like DA, it takes time to turn around an organization.
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just curious. honestly how do you guys explain us only scoring an average of a fg in the 3rd qtr? or the fact that every game that we scored in the 3rd we won.

team 3rd qtr points
sd = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
mia = 0 points (up 10-3 at half)
pitt = 7 points (down 17-14 at half) (win)
den = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
atl = 0 points (up 13- 7at half)
jax = 7 points (down 17-6 at half) (win)
kc =10 points (up 13 - 6 at half) (win)
tb =0 points (up 10-7 at half)


They are some very interesting stats...... do you know what the opposition have scored during the 3rd quarter also?? If they have scored significantly more (which i believe they have even without the TB game) then the most obvious thing is they are adjusting to our D at half time and our D is not adjusting aswell, also they are probably familiar with our OC playcalling by then and again scheming against it. We are possibly more successful in the 4th as by then Carson Palmer and Knapp have seen the 'adjusted D' for a quarter and can audible and no huddle against it - adjusting to the adjustment so as to speak???

Just my best guess though....
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 11025
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmac505 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just curious. honestly how do you guys explain us only scoring an average of a fg in the 3rd qtr? or the fact that every game that we scored in the 3rd we won.

team 3rd qtr points
sd = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
mia = 0 points (up 10-3 at half)
pitt = 7 points (down 17-14 at half) (win)
den = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
atl = 0 points (up 13- 7at half)
jax = 7 points (down 17-6 at half) (win)
kc =10 points (up 13 - 6 at half) (win)
tb =0 points (up 10-7 at half)



Coaching.


This ^^^^^

And Pryor wasn't playing... that too.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

all im saying is despite pitt and jax the d has put up great first half performances. where is the offense? the whole offense. in all honestly cp only sticks out the most cause he is throwing it almost 50 times a game with a ugly rt. you cant help but watch you get a large sample size. but the running game sucks and everyone wants to blame the d. the offense has all their starters minus ford and barnes still arent getting it done. the defense has rookies and others guys ive never heard of playing but they still hold. but after the half rich and tko are winded, uninspired (due to the amount of 3 and outs) and we get gashed then the o doesnt come through and the d gets gashed some more.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just curious. honestly how do you guys explain us only scoring an average of a fg in the 3rd qtr? or the fact that every game that we scored in the 3rd we won.

team 3rd qtr points
sd = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
mia = 0 points (up 10-3 at half)
pitt = 7 points (down 17-14 at half) (win)
den = 0 points (down 10-6 at half)
atl = 0 points (up 13- 7at half)
jax = 7 points (down 17-6 at half) (win)
kc =10 points (up 13 - 6 at half) (win)
tb =0 points (up 10-7 at half)



Coaching.


This ^^^^^

And Pryor wasn't playing... that too.


We get it, we get it, time to let that go.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5707
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
all im saying is despite pitt and jax the d has put up 1- great first half performances. where is the offense? the whole offense. in all honestly cp only sticks out the most cause he is throwing it almost 50 times a game with a ugly rt. you cant help but watch you get a large sample size. but 2- the running game sucks and everyone wants to 3- blame the d. the offense has all their starters minus ford and barnes still arent getting it done. the defense has rookies and others guys ive never heard of playing but 4- they still hold. but after the half rich and tko are winded, 5- uninspired (due to the amount of 3 and outs) and we get gashed then the o doesnt come through and the d gets gashed some more.


1) It's a 60 minute game in case you have not noticed.
2) No help from them
3) The D is at fault
4) For 30 minutes? It's a 4 quarter 60 minute game. The O seems to understand this, playing to the last second.
5) I don't even know how to respond to this. After 20+ collective years in the league these guys can't get inspired in close games? I saw the 3 and out stats across the league flashed during our last game, we were not amongst the leaders. How do other defenses get inspired while their teams are going 3 and out?
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 20553
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
all im saying is despite pitt and jax the d has put up 1- great first half performances. where is the offense? the whole offense. in all honestly cp only sticks out the most cause he is throwing it almost 50 times a game with a ugly rt. you cant help but watch you get a large sample size. but 2- the running game sucks and everyone wants to 3- blame the d. the offense has all their starters minus ford and barnes still arent getting it done. the defense has rookies and others guys ive never heard of playing but 4- they still hold. but after the half rich and tko are winded, 5- uninspired (due to the amount of 3 and outs) and we get gashed then the o doesnt come through and the d gets gashed some more.


1) It's a 60 minute game in case you have not noticed.
2) No help from them
3) The D is at fault
4) For 30 minutes? It's a 4 quarter 60 minute game. The O seems to understand this, playing to the last second.
5) I don't even know how to respond to this. After 20+ collective years in the league these guys can't get inspired in close games? I saw the 3 and out stats across the league flashed during our last game, we were not amongst the leaders. How do other defenses get inspired while their teams are going 3 and out?


They do? The sleep walk in the first and 3rd quarters. I rather play all 60 minutes instead of playing to the last minute. The Defense is to blame, being winded in no excuse for three long runs like that. But the offense do have to do a better job sustaining drives. If we can only score at the end of halfs and only do it running hurry up the defense is going to get tired.
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