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Let the debate begin: Eli or Big Ben
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Steelerspower


Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 7742
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.



The giants are now very happy with this trade

There is no guarantee that the Giants would have won a Super Bowl with Rivers because Eli is much better than Rivers in playoffs

Rivers had a very talented team in its first 5 years
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelerspower wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.



The giants are now very happy with this trade

There is no guarantee that the Giants would have won a Super Bowl with Rivers because Eli is much better than Rivers in playoffs

Rivers had a very talented team in its first 5 years


And there is no guarantee Eli would have the same success with the Chargers, either.

And while he had some talented teams, so has Eli.

Sadly, Rivers has been playing under a coach that has already proven beyond a doubt that he isnt head coach material in this league. Norv Turner squander all the talent he inherited from Marty.
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Steelerspower


Joined: 13 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Steelerspower wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.



The giants are now very happy with this trade

There is no guarantee that the Giants would have won a Super Bowl with Rivers because Eli is much better than Rivers in playoffs

Rivers had a very talented team in its first 5 years


And there is no guarantee Eli would have the same success with the Chargers, either.

And while he had some talented teams, so has Eli.

Sadly, Rivers has been playing under a coach that has already proven beyond a doubt that he isnt head coach material in this league. Norv Turner squander all the talent he inherited from Marty.




Norv Turner is a bad coach and AJ Smith is a horrible GM since 2007, but at the same time, it is now an excuse for Rivers

I understand that the HC is very important, but at the same time Peyton Manning has been at the super bowl in 2009 with Jim Caldwell as HC


Rivers is a very good QB, but he's the 3rd best QB of the draft class in 2004
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelerspower wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Steelerspower wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.



The giants are now very happy with this trade

There is no guarantee that the Giants would have won a Super Bowl with Rivers because Eli is much better than Rivers in playoffs

Rivers had a very talented team in its first 5 years


And there is no guarantee Eli would have the same success with the Chargers, either.

And while he had some talented teams, so has Eli.

Sadly, Rivers has been playing under a coach that has already proven beyond a doubt that he isnt head coach material in this league. Norv Turner squander all the talent he inherited from Marty.




Norv Turner is a bad coach and AJ Smith is a horrible GM since 2007, but at the same time, it is now an excuse for Rivers

I understand that the HC is very important, but at the same time Peyton Manning has been at the super bowl in 2009 with Jim Caldwell as HC


Rivers is a very good QB, but he's the 3rd best QB of the draft class in 2004


Not an excuse for him....but its certainly a factor in how that team has collapsed.

Rivers took them to the AFC Championship game int 2009 under Norv. And before Caldwell got there, that team was built around Peyton Manning. Caldwell was just a figure head that was asked not to get in the way. However, after Manning went down, he was helpless.

Norv and AJ Smith, however, have ruined that team. They let key free agents go, and alot of players that were playing well before he got there declined rapidly once he took over.

Bottom line...I agree Rivers is behind Ben and Eli, but neither Ben or Eli havent had to put up with the trash Rivers has had to in San Diego.
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Steelerspower


Joined: 13 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Steelerspower wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Steelerspower wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.



The giants are now very happy with this trade

There is no guarantee that the Giants would have won a Super Bowl with Rivers because Eli is much better than Rivers in playoffs

Rivers had a very talented team in its first 5 years


And there is no guarantee Eli would have the same success with the Chargers, either.

And while he had some talented teams, so has Eli.

Sadly, Rivers has been playing under a coach that has already proven beyond a doubt that he isnt head coach material in this league. Norv Turner squander all the talent he inherited from Marty.




Norv Turner is a bad coach and AJ Smith is a horrible GM since 2007, but at the same time, it is now an excuse for Rivers

I understand that the HC is very important, but at the same time Peyton Manning has been at the super bowl in 2009 with Jim Caldwell as HC


Rivers is a very good QB, but he's the 3rd best QB of the draft class in 2004


Not an excuse for him....but its certainly a factor in how that team has collapsed.

Rivers took them to the AFC Championship game int 2009 under Norv. And before Caldwell got there, that team was built around Peyton Manning. Caldwell was just a figure head that was asked not to get in the way. However, after Manning went down, he was helpless.

Norv and AJ Smith, however, have ruined that team. They let key free agents go, and alot of players that were playing well before he got there declined rapidly once he took over.

Bottom line...I agree Rivers is behind Ben and Eli, but neither Ben or Eli havent had to put up with the trash Rivers has had to in San Diego.



I agree with you.....Fired Marty was a stupid mistake

With Marty, the chargers were a very physical team, but with Norv Turner, the team is very soft

The ego of A.J Smith has destroyed the chargers
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Gatoradus


Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, Big Ben.

Eli may have been superb in 4th quarter but that got more to do with facing less pass-rushers (many teams, like Lebeau play vanilla defense when leading)

Big Ben has the pocket awarness and escapability... That Eli can not touch. That big factor, the "it" that can change the direction of game immediately facing any amount of pass-rushers.

This Sunday, even if Steelers lose, I will still pick Big Ben. That's no disrespect toward Eli, just I don't get the hype surrounding him. Like Matt Ryan, they put up elite numbers but for some reason, I don't feel like they are among the elite, just yet... It's like they are missing something.
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SouthwestSteel


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally appreciate both of them quite a bit, some different strengths and some similarities. Peyton and Brady still are just a cut above the rest, but you have several right below them who are extremely good and still making some strides. I think Eli has really grown in the last few years and is clearly one of the best in the league now. And in some ways this season is developing things in Ben that are taking him up a notch as well!
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at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Gatoradus"]Honestly, Big Ben.

Eli may have been superb in 4th quarter but that got more to do with facing less pass-rushers (many teams, like Lebeau play vanilla defense when leading)

Big Ben has the pocket awarness and escapability... That Eli can not touch. That big factor, the "it" that can change the direction of game immediately facing any amount of pass-rushers.

This Sunday, even if Steelers lose, I will still pick Big Ben. That's no disrespect toward Eli, just I don't get the hype surrounding him. Like Matt Ryan, they put up elite numbers but for some reason, I don't feel like they are among the elite, just yet... It's like they are missing something.[/quote

Im a big Matt Ryan fan, and he's played at an elite level so far this season but him and Eli are NOT in the same category at all. Eli has led his team to 2 4th quarter comebacks in the SB, while Matt Ryan has struggled in the playoffs so far. Eli used to lack the "IT" but now he's an elite QB.
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KJtheWicked


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No love for JP Losman? Laughing
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The Curtain


Joined: 24 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they are pretty much neck and neck at this point, Eli has become a much better QB as time went on. He did not look like anything special before their first SB, and even when they won that first SB, I think most would of credited it more to an awesome team being around him, along with a really fluky play. NY has done a good job putting an excellent supporting cast around him, too. I'd say his receiving core has been a lot better than Ben's since they both entered the league. Cruz right now is really good, he's almost at that point where you just put it up to him and he makes something huge happen.

The reason I'd take Ben is just because I feel like his intangibles are better, maybe even the best in the NFL. Even when you think you have him beat, he can fight his way out of a sack, run around, and hit someone 40 yards downfield. I don't think he gets enough credit for some of the ridiculous plays he's made over the years, when 95% of QBs would of been sacked there. It's not just because he's "big" either, since most QBs are big dudes. He has a crazy ability to fight his way out of sacks, while still being aware of who is getting open downfield.

I honestly think Eli would have gotten murdered behind Ben's offensive line. Ben could play behind any line in the league and still be a top QB.
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SouthwestSteel


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Curtain wrote:
I think they are pretty much neck and neck at this point, Eli has become a much better QB as time went on. He did not look like anything special before their first SB, and even when they won that first SB, I think most would of credited it more to an awesome team being around him, along with a really fluky play. NY has done a good job putting an excellent supporting cast around him, too. I'd say his receiving core has been a lot better than Ben's since they both entered the league. Cruz right now is really good, he's almost at that point where you just put it up to him and he makes something huge happen.

The reason I'd take Ben is just because I feel like his intangibles are better, maybe even the best in the NFL. Even when you think you have him beat, he can fight his way out of a sack, run around, and hit someone 40 yards downfield. I don't think he gets enough credit for some of the ridiculous plays he's made over the years, when 95% of QBs would of been sacked there. It's not just because he's "big" either, since most QBs are big dudes. He has a crazy ability to fight his way out of sacks, while still being aware of who is getting open downfield.

I honestly think Eli would have gotten murdered behind Ben's offensive line. Ben could play behind any line in the league and still be a top QB.


I agree Eli would have been murdered playing here! As would've most quarterbacks. Ben definitely is at or near the top in finding a way out in the midst of chaos. And with the improved line play and the new offense, he is hardly getting knocked down now. One of his best performances in awhile, and as he grows into his new situation, I expect he will get even better. The improved running game is also making it harder to zero in on him lately. By the end of the year this could be one of the better offenses around if the trends hold, the aging and injured D is the main limiting factor.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.


He had the #1 offense and defense one year and still couldn't get it done... Giants easily got the better end of this deal. No idea how anyone can rationalize it for the Chargers.

As far as Ben and Eli hell flip a coin. But have had their ups and downs, both have delivered Championships, their career numbers are comparable (Ben gets the advantage) and both are clutch as hell. They have been flip flopping 5 and 6 on my QB ranking for the past few seasons.

Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Peyton
Ben
Eli
Ryan
Romo
Schaub

That's how I currently see it.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.


He had the #1 offense and defense one year and still couldn't get it done... Giants easily got the better end of this deal. No idea how anyone can rationalize it for the Chargers.

As far as Ben and Eli hell flip a coin. But have had their ups and downs, both have delivered Championships, their career numbers are comparable (Ben gets the advantage) and both are clutch as hell. They have been flip flopping 5 and 6 on my QB ranking for the past few seasons.

Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Peyton
Ben
Eli
Ryan
Romo
Schaub

That's how I currently see it.


Great post, and I'd have the EXACT same top 9 in that order. Now the #10 spot is tricky, maybe Rivers or Cutler though I think RG3 will overtake that spot by the end of the year.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
As of now the Chargers still got an equal or better deal in the trade up to this point since Rivers has been the better player for the majority of the span, and they got decent play from the other picks/players for various amounts of time. That the Chargers weren't a good enough team regardless to get that team to the Super Bowl is a separate issue from the value of the trade.


I couldn't possibly disagree more.

1) The Chargers were consistently loaded, and Rivers stunk in the playoffs. They lost in the postseason because, despite Rivers' stat-padding during the regular season, he's a choke artist with the game on the line, he stinks when he doesn't have an offensive line of studs, and he doesn't deal very well when he's not in sunny southern California.

2) Eli has thrown 17 TDs, 8 interceptions in 11 postseason games. Rivers has thrown 8 TDs, 9 interceptions in 7 postseason games

what we're seeing now is how Philip Rivers plays behind an offensive line that is about as bad as Eli or Ben's has been. He's a statue. Great fantasy football player. Choke artist when it comes to crunch time.
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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it fair to call him a choke artist when Nate Kaeding basically choked harder than any kicker has ever choked?

Regardless of how it all played out, all and all I agree that Rivers SHOULD have won something with those 00's SD teams. They were pretty stacked. At least until they got rid of Marty and their team no longer had an identity or fierce defense.
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