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Raves
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 16855
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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| whodatworm23 wrote: | In all honesty... I see Spags coming back but personnel or not, NO ONE deserves a year 2 after fielding maybe the worst defense in NFL history.
As far as Hankins... I was really high on him to start the season but I don't think I'm more disappointed in a prospect more than him to this point. I really felt he'd dominate more than what he is and while he still looks like a top 20 talent, he's not top 5 in my book but thats my opinion.
Maybe I'm overthinking Hankins right now... I know he's emmensly talented and will likley go top 5 but I have such big expectations for him this year.
Anyway, Although this season has been going very bad I don't see a top 5 pick on the way!
This team will win enough to land us somewhere between 8-12. This draft really only has a handful of elite 43 defensive impact players...
Jonathan Hankins
Bjoern Werner
Jarvis Jones (he could play both)
Star Loutelei
Barkevious Mingo
I expect all these guys to be gone come our pick leaving the Saints and Spags once again trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Players like,
Manti Te'o
Sam Montgomery
Sheldon Richardson
Jonathan Jenkins
Will likley be the top rated draftable players on defense when we select and to me each one of them fit the 34 best.
I think Spags will stay, but I also think we will look back on it as a big mistake. |
If you are disappointed in Hankins then you are only looking at stat sheets and not his actual play on the field. The dude is constantly double teamed and teams cutting him on nearly every play after teh double team yet he's still running down plays sideline to sideline, disrupting through the middle etc. There is a reason why teams have gone away from trying to run the ball up the middle against Ohio State and instead have been hitting quick screens/passes to the outside, it's because they can't get it working up the middle as Hankins is killing them.
Watch some of the Ohio State games against a more traditional offense like Michigan State and Penn State, heck even Nebraska, and tell me his presence isn't felt on each play. It's teams that send everything outside he simply doesn't have time to make the play that makes his stats look worse.
_________________
2011 Stats:
Malcolm Jenkins - 78 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 FF, 9 PD, 1 FRTD
Jimmy Graham - 99 catches, 1310 yards, 11 TD |
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I realize Hankins talent... He will go top 5, while I dont know the exact order I feel its pretty safe to say the top 5 will go like this,
Geno Smith
Jarvis Jones
Jonathan Hankins
Barkevious Mingo
Star Loutelei or Bjoren Werner
All the talk of a top 5 pick for us is nonsense! We have 9 games left, I know our defense is pathatic but this team will win 4-5 of those games. Drew alone is good for 3 more wins. 6-10 to 8-8 is a more realistic ending to this season for us.
Those records put us outside the top 6 looking in... trading up would only cost draft picks that A) we dont have & B) Ones we cant afford to trade anyway.
I actually se trading back as a more logical option in this draft. The reason I say this is the top impact 43 defenders will be out of reach for us in my opinion but there is still very good talent available they just fit a different scheme better.
I'm sick of drafting players that fit other schemes and just hoping it works out (Jordan). Make the switch already!
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 2550
Location: Nawlins
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Raves,
If the Saints stick with Spags (and i think they will), I have got to believe that LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery has to be at the top of their draft board.
At 6'5" and 265lbs he has the size and the game of a pure 43 RDE in Spags scheme. He dosent have an elite first step but he is still a extremly good pass rusher and stout run defender. I can honestly see the Saints trading up to secure him on draft day...
That's if Spags is still our DC!
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Raves
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 16855
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| whodatworm23 wrote: | Raves,
If the Saints stick with Spags (and i think they will), I have got to believe that LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery has to be at the top of their draft board.
At 6'5" and 265lbs he has the size and the game of a pure 43 RDE in Spags scheme. He dosent have an elite first step but he is still a extremly good pass rusher and stout run defender. I can honestly see the Saints trading up to secure him on draft day...
That's if Spags is still our DC! |
If they trade up for a defensive player it needs to be Hankins or Werner. I think by draft time Werner is going to end up the consensus #1 DE. I'm thinking the LSU's DEs aren't as good as people thought last year. When you tell me a supposed top flight DE lacks an elite first step, I simply don't want him. If you don't have an elite first step you're better off gaining weight and moving inside.
Hankins at 320-330lbs has an Elite first step and has even been able to move out to DE for Ohio State and been effective.
_________________
2011 Stats:
Malcolm Jenkins - 78 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 FF, 9 PD, 1 FRTD
Jimmy Graham - 99 catches, 1310 yards, 11 TD |
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 2550
Location: Nawlins
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Raves wrote: | | whodatworm23 wrote: | Raves,
If the Saints stick with Spags (and i think they will), I have got to believe that LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery has to be at the top of their draft board.
At 6'5" and 265lbs he has the size and the game of a pure 43 RDE in Spags scheme. He dosent have an elite first step but he is still a extremly good pass rusher and stout run defender. I can honestly see the Saints trading up to secure him on draft day...
That's if Spags is still our DC! |
If they trade up for a defensive player it needs to be Hankins or Werner. I think by draft time Werner is going to end up the consensus #1 DE. I'm thinking the LSU's DEs aren't as good as people thought last year. When you tell me a supposed top flight DE lacks an elite first step, I simply don't want him. If you don't have an elite first step you're better off gaining weight and moving inside.
Hankins at 320-330lbs has an Elite first step and has even been able to move out to DE for Ohio State and been effective. |
Raves, that is exactly my point...
Sam Montgomery will be the best of a "what's left situation".
Hankins, Jones,Mingo & Werner are all going top 5... BOOK IT!!!
We won't be in position to land ANY of those cats. Trading up from 10-14 to 7-9 is realistic but is Montgomery worth it? Demontre Moore is a rocket off the edge, but the dude is 250 pounds... We have that in Martez Wilson!
Every top defensive prospect outside that top 5 is a gamble in the 43. I just see another pick that we hope fits! If we stay in the 43 it's slim pickings but if were picking for a 34 then our options open tremendously.
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Porter22
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 2057
Location: Weyhe, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Raves wrote: | | whodatworm23 wrote: | Raves,
If the Saints stick with Spags (and i think they will), I have got to believe that LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery has to be at the top of their draft board.
At 6'5" and 265lbs he has the size and the game of a pure 43 RDE in Spags scheme. He dosent have an elite first step but he is still a extremly good pass rusher and stout run defender. I can honestly see the Saints trading up to secure him on draft day...
That's if Spags is still our DC! |
If they trade up for a defensive player it needs to be Hankins or Werner. I think by draft time Werner is going to end up the consensus #1 DE. I'm thinking the LSU's DEs aren't as good as people thought last year. When you tell me a supposed top flight DE lacks an elite first step, I simply don't want him. If you don't have an elite first step you're better off gaining weight and moving inside.
Hankins at 320-330lbs has an Elite first step and has even been able to move out to DE for Ohio State and been effective. |
Thanks Raves!!! Finally someone sees how good Werner is. He is a monster and would get way more recognition if FSU would still be in the race for the BCS game. Getting Werner would help this defense from day one. Put him at RDE and maybe even move Jordan to UT. Wilson and Galette could play at LDE and don't forget about Romeus. I know he has been injured the last two years, but he looked great, everytime he was healthy. |
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FLOODx
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 5446
Location: ZOO ORLEANS
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Worm, it's kind of hard to predict the top 5 players selected in the draft in November, and it's even harder to guarantee it. Mingo hasn't played well at all this season, and he definitely doesn't deserve to go top 5 at this point. I could see Barkley sneaking back into the top 5 with good workouts and interviews. If the Saints keep playing like they did Sunday night they'll have a chance at some of the guys you listed in your top 5.
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Not that it really matters, but to say that Montgomery and Mingo don't have elite first steps....
womp womp
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| FLOODx wrote: | | Worm, it's kind of hard to predict the top 5 players selected in the draft in November, and it's even harder to guarantee it. Mingo hasn't played well at all this season, and he definitely doesn't deserve to go top 5 at this point. I could see Barkley sneaking back into the top 5 with good workouts and interviews. If the Saints keep playing like they did Sunday night they'll have a chance at some of the guys you listed in your top 5. |
Flood, While I'll agree with you that predicting the top 5 of the draft is kinda silly right now, I will stand by this. NFL scouts value NFL potnetial over college production for prospects on the defensive line. THAT IS A FACT!!!
Mingo has the most potential of any in this class and although his production is not that of other players, his physical skill set projects him to potentially a better pro than anyone else. Now this thought process does not hold true with other positions but in the NFL defensive lineman are drafted (HIGH) for what they have the ability to do, not for what they have done.
With this lodgic... Mingo, Hankins & Loutelei are top 10 locks.
Players I could acutually see falling would be Jarvis Jones (medical), Sam Montgomery(medical) & Manti Te'o (position).
Guys like Geno Smith, Luke Jockel, Taylor Lewan, Chance Warmack & Matt Barkley all have the chance to be saving graces for us if they can propel themselves into the top 10.
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Nawlins
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | Not that it really matters, but to say that Montgomery and Mingo don't have elite first steps....
womp womp |
No one ever said Mingo didn't have an elite first step... Montgomery does not though. He's quick, don't misunderstand me but his first step is not elite like say Mingo's or Werners.
Montgomery is ALWAYS the last of the snap on his own D-Line. Mingo, Logan, Edwards and Johnson all fire of the ball quicker. Hankins and Loutelei at over 315 lbs have quicker burst than Sam.
He's still an elite player... just doesent have an elite first step, watch the games after his injuy, not before.
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FLOODx
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
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Location: ZOO ORLEANS
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| whodatworm23 wrote: | | FLOODx wrote: | | Worm, it's kind of hard to predict the top 5 players selected in the draft in November, and it's even harder to guarantee it. Mingo hasn't played well at all this season, and he definitely doesn't deserve to go top 5 at this point. I could see Barkley sneaking back into the top 5 with good workouts and interviews. If the Saints keep playing like they did Sunday night they'll have a chance at some of the guys you listed in your top 5. |
Flood, While I'll agree with you that predicting the top 5 of the draft is kinda silly right now, I will stand by this. NFL scouts value NFL potnetial over college production for prospects on the defensive line. THAT IS A FACT!!!
Mingo has the most potential of any in this class and although his production is not that of other players, his physical skill set projects him to potentially a better pro than anyone else. Now this thought process does not hold true with other positions but in the NFL defensive lineman are drafted (HIGH) for what they have the ability to do, not for what they have done.
With this lodgic... Mingo, Hankins & Loutelei are top 10 locks.
Players I could acutually see falling would be Jarvis Jones (medical), Sam Montgomery(medical) & Manti Te'o (position).
Guys like Geno Smith, Luke Jockel, Taylor Lewan, Chance Warmack & Matt Barkley all have the chance to be saving graces for us if they can propel themselves into the top 10. |
I agree with what you're saying, but I doubt Mingo will play DE in the NFL, which might work to benefit him. With the recent success of rookie 3-4 OLBs (Von Miller, Aldon Smith, Bruce Irvin) a team in the top 10 that runs a 3-4 could reach on him.
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| whodatworm23 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | Not that it really matters, but to say that Montgomery and Mingo don't have elite first steps....
womp womp |
No one ever said Mingo didn't have an elite first step... Montgomery does not though. He's quick, don't misunderstand me but his first step is not elite like say Mingo's or Werners.
Montgomery is ALWAYS the last of the snap on his own D-Line. Mingo, Logan, Edwards and Johnson all fire of the ball quicker. Hankins and Loutelei at over 315 lbs have quicker burst than Sam.
He's still an elite player... just doesent have an elite first step, watch the games after his injuy, not before. |
Perhaps. I'd say that he's the more complete player of the two though...by that I mean he's more cerebral, and more technical. As long as his first step is still very good, he possesses the technical ability to become a good NFL player. Mingo is more of a physical specimen.
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | whodatworm23 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | Not that it really matters, but to say that Montgomery and Mingo don't have elite first steps....
womp womp |
No one ever said Mingo didn't have an elite first step... Montgomery does not though. He's quick, don't misunderstand me but his first step is not elite like say Mingo's or Werners.
Montgomery is ALWAYS the last of the snap on his own D-Line. Mingo, Logan, Edwards and Johnson all fire of the ball quicker. Hankins and Loutelei at over 315 lbs have quicker burst than Sam.
He's still an elite player... just doesent have an elite first step, watch the games after his injuy, not before. |
Perhaps. I'd say that he's the more complete player of the two though...by that I mean he's more cerebral, and more technical. As long as his first step is still very good, he possesses the technical ability to become a good NFL player. Mingo is more of a physical specimen. |
Oh,l I agree...
If I were the GM of this team and we were keeping spags and i had to choose between Montgomery and Mingo, I'd choose Montgomery!
He's a physical freak himself but he's also the better fit in Spags scheme and that's where I think this really comes down to with these two guys... Scheme.
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree with what you're saying, but I doubt Mingo will play DE in the NFL, which might work to benefit him. With the recent success of rookie 3-4 OLBs (Von Miller, Aldon Smith, Bruce Irvin) a team in the top 10 that runs a 3-4 could reach on him |
If Mingo could add about 30 lbs to his frame (and thats a big if) he could be an elite 43 RDE but with his skill set and physical stature how it is now he's more impactful as a 34 edge rusher or as a situational pass rusher in a 43.
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