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germ-x


Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 7901
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
I agree with those who wouldn't give up a bunch of picks for Teo. He is a hell of a player, but i wouldn't want to trade a ton to get him.

IMO, LB is like the RB of the defense. Unless it is hands down the BPA in the 1st round i see no reason in selecting one, especially in Denver's defense which is constantly using different personnel in different formations.

I am interested in seeing if Irving continues getting more playing time. Personally, i don't see ILB as a huge need. When Williams gets back Denver will have a 3 down LB and Woodyard will start coming in to replace the other LB and provide coverage.


There is no way DJ starts over Woodyard. Vic Lombardi said today that he heard rumblings that DJ may not even be kept after suspension.

I would rather get Skov and another impact player than Te'o


Off the field issue's aside, DJ Williams is a better football player than Woodyard. He may not be quite as good in coverage, but he is still good in the area while also being superior to Woodyard vs the run. Unlike Woodyard, DJ Williams isn't a liability in any situation or vs any particular team.

Now, if he is let go after the suspension i would have no problem with that. He is a fool and i have been calling for his release for awhile. If that happens Denver will need a 3 down LB, IMO. Even then though it isn't worth selling the farm.

As for Skov, i like him, but don't think he is the 3 down player Denver would need if Williams is gone. He wouldn't be a bad mid round pick to compete at ILB though.


The 'selling the farm" is a straw man arguement. What was mentioned and is quite plausable is a move from around 25 to around 7. Based on a draft value chart, giving up next years 1st (probably very low, hopefully #32) and DJ would probably move us up this year to grab Te'o.

Is giving up one future draft pick and a player like DJ selling the farm?
Thats not much of a farm. Laughing Laughing I absolutely hate "straw man" arguments. They should be reserved for Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, basically all elected officials and any other professional liars.


I am not using your scenario as a comparison because that would be a low ball offer to move into the top 10, where Teo will probably go.

IMO, it would probably cost Denver at "least" 4 picks in the next 2 drafts, 2 of them being 1sts and probably a 3rd+a 4th or 5th.

No one is going to want the mess that is DJ Williams even if he is on an expiring contract. He isn't exactly a player a team picking in the top 10 is looking to acquire.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 1530
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to try DJ out at MLB. If he doesnt like to play that position, we can cut his [inappropriate/removed]. He isnt in a position to make demands after his law issues. If he works out at MLB, we would have an extremley well rounded LB core.

WLB - Woodyard MLB - Williams SLB - Von

On obvious running downs: WLB - Wiliams MLB - Irving SLB - Von

On obvious passing downs: WLB - Woodyard MLB - Williams SLB - Trevethan
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5232
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
I agree with those who wouldn't give up a bunch of picks for Teo. He is a hell of a player, but i wouldn't want to trade a ton to get him.

IMO, LB is like the RB of the defense. Unless it is hands down the BPA in the 1st round i see no reason in selecting one, especially in Denver's defense which is constantly using different personnel in different formations.

I am interested in seeing if Irving continues getting more playing time. Personally, i don't see ILB as a huge need. When Williams gets back Denver will have a 3 down LB and Woodyard will start coming in to replace the other LB and provide coverage.


There is no way DJ starts over Woodyard. Vic Lombardi said today that he heard rumblings that DJ may not even be kept after suspension.

I would rather get Skov and another impact player than Te'o


Off the field issue's aside, DJ Williams is a better football player than Woodyard. He may not be quite as good in coverage, but he is still good in the area while also being superior to Woodyard vs the run. Unlike Woodyard, DJ Williams isn't a liability in any situation or vs any particular team.

Now, if he is let go after the suspension i would have no problem with that. He is a fool and i have been calling for his release for awhile. If that happens Denver will need a 3 down LB, IMO. Even then though it isn't worth selling the farm.

As for Skov, i like him, but don't think he is the 3 down player Denver would need if Williams is gone. He wouldn't be a bad mid round pick to compete at ILB though.


The 'selling the farm" is a straw man arguement. What was mentioned and is quite plausable is a move from around 25 to around 7. Based on a draft value chart, giving up next years 1st (probably very low, hopefully #32) and DJ would probably move us up this year to grab Te'o.

Is giving up one future draft pick and a player like DJ selling the farm?
Thats not much of a farm. Laughing Laughing I absolutely hate "straw man" arguments. They should be reserved for Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, basically all elected officials and any other professional liars.


I am not using your scenario as a comparison because that would be a low ball offer to move into the top 10, where Teo will probably go.

IMO, it would probably cost Denver at "least" 4 picks in the next 2 drafts, 2 of them being 1sts and probably a 3rd+a 4th or 5th.

No one is going to want the mess that is DJ Williams even if he is on an expiring contract. He isn't exactly a player a team picking in the top 10 is looking to acquire.


To move from #25 value 720 to #7 value 1500 is quite acheivable. Thats only 780 points or the value of the #22 pick. Worst case would probably be next years 1st and maybe a 4th rd.

Using the term "cost" and listing 4 picks is misleading. The only "cost " associated is what would be required to move from #25 to #7. Hardly 4 picks.
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germ-x


Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 7901
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
I agree with those who wouldn't give up a bunch of picks for Teo. He is a hell of a player, but i wouldn't want to trade a ton to get him.

IMO, LB is like the RB of the defense. Unless it is hands down the BPA in the 1st round i see no reason in selecting one, especially in Denver's defense which is constantly using different personnel in different formations.

I am interested in seeing if Irving continues getting more playing time. Personally, i don't see ILB as a huge need. When Williams gets back Denver will have a 3 down LB and Woodyard will start coming in to replace the other LB and provide coverage.


There is no way DJ starts over Woodyard. Vic Lombardi said today that he heard rumblings that DJ may not even be kept after suspension.

I would rather get Skov and another impact player than Te'o


Off the field issue's aside, DJ Williams is a better football player than Woodyard. He may not be quite as good in coverage, but he is still good in the area while also being superior to Woodyard vs the run. Unlike Woodyard, DJ Williams isn't a liability in any situation or vs any particular team.

Now, if he is let go after the suspension i would have no problem with that. He is a fool and i have been calling for his release for awhile. If that happens Denver will need a 3 down LB, IMO. Even then though it isn't worth selling the farm.

As for Skov, i like him, but don't think he is the 3 down player Denver would need if Williams is gone. He wouldn't be a bad mid round pick to compete at ILB though.


The 'selling the farm" is a straw man arguement. What was mentioned and is quite plausable is a move from around 25 to around 7. Based on a draft value chart, giving up next years 1st (probably very low, hopefully #32) and DJ would probably move us up this year to grab Te'o.

Is giving up one future draft pick and a player like DJ selling the farm?
Thats not much of a farm. Laughing Laughing I absolutely hate "straw man" arguments. They should be reserved for Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, basically all elected officials and any other professional liars.


I am not using your scenario as a comparison because that would be a low ball offer to move into the top 10, where Teo will probably go.

IMO, it would probably cost Denver at "least" 4 picks in the next 2 drafts, 2 of them being 1sts and probably a 3rd+a 4th or 5th.

No one is going to want the mess that is DJ Williams even if he is on an expiring contract. He isn't exactly a player a team picking in the top 10 is looking to acquire.


To move from #25 value 720 to #7 value 1500 is quite acheivable. Thats only 780 points or the value of the #22 pick. Worst case would probably be next years 1st and maybe a 4th rd.

Using the term "cost" and listing 4 picks is misleading. The only "cost " associated is what would be required to move from #25 to #7. Hardly 4 picks.


Its not misleading at all because it is based on similar trades that actually happened. Using the trade value chart is alright when playing FFMD or making a mock as something to base off of, but NFL teams don't follow it perfectly. Nevermind the fact that from what I have read a few years ago that teams value future picks at nearly a round less, which is why you see teams trade future 1sts straight up for 2nd rounders.

If you think Denver can make a jump of 18 picks for 2 1sts and a 4th, I don't know what to say. All I know is similar trades over the past few years cost more than that.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5232
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
germ-x wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
I agree with those who wouldn't give up a bunch of picks for Teo. He is a hell of a player, but i wouldn't want to trade a ton to get him.

IMO, LB is like the RB of the defense. Unless it is hands down the BPA in the 1st round i see no reason in selecting one, especially in Denver's defense which is constantly using different personnel in different formations.

I am interested in seeing if Irving continues getting more playing time. Personally, i don't see ILB as a huge need. When Williams gets back Denver will have a 3 down LB and Woodyard will start coming in to replace the other LB and provide coverage.


There is no way DJ starts over Woodyard. Vic Lombardi said today that he heard rumblings that DJ may not even be kept after suspension.

I would rather get Skov and another impact player than Te'o


Off the field issue's aside, DJ Williams is a better football player than Woodyard. He may not be quite as good in coverage, but he is still good in the area while also being superior to Woodyard vs the run. Unlike Woodyard, DJ Williams isn't a liability in any situation or vs any particular team.

Now, if he is let go after the suspension i would have no problem with that. He is a fool and i have been calling for his release for awhile. If that happens Denver will need a 3 down LB, IMO. Even then though it isn't worth selling the farm.

As for Skov, i like him, but don't think he is the 3 down player Denver would need if Williams is gone. He wouldn't be a bad mid round pick to compete at ILB though.


The 'selling the farm" is a straw man arguement. What was mentioned and is quite plausable is a move from around 25 to around 7. Based on a draft value chart, giving up next years 1st (probably very low, hopefully #32) and DJ would probably move us up this year to grab Te'o.

Is giving up one future draft pick and a player like DJ selling the farm?
Thats not much of a farm. Laughing Laughing I absolutely hate "straw man" arguments. They should be reserved for Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, basically all elected officials and any other professional liars.


I am not using your scenario as a comparison because that would be a low ball offer to move into the top 10, where Teo will probably go.

IMO, it would probably cost Denver at "least" 4 picks in the next 2 drafts, 2 of them being 1sts and probably a 3rd+a 4th or 5th.

No one is going to want the mess that is DJ Williams even if he is on an expiring contract. He isn't exactly a player a team picking in the top 10 is looking to acquire.


To move from #25 value 720 to #7 value 1500 is quite acheivable. Thats only 780 points or the value of the #22 pick. Worst case would probably be next years 1st and maybe a 4th rd.

Using the term "cost" and listing 4 picks is misleading. The only "cost " associated is what would be required to move from #25 to #7. Hardly 4 picks.


Its not misleading at all because it is based on similar trades that actually happened. Using the trade value chart is alright when playing FFMD or making a mock as something to base off of, but NFL teams don't follow it perfectly. Nevermind the fact that from what I have read a few years ago that teams value future picks at nearly a round less, which is why you see teams trade future 1sts straight up for 2nd rounders.

If you think Denver can make a jump of 18 picks for 2 1sts and a 4th, I don't know what to say. All I know is similar trades over the past few years cost more than that.


I've got to opt' out of this while it's still funny.

You do realize don't you that an 18 point jump in the 1st rd of the draft can vary from 2100+ points on the value chart to 610 don't you? Oh yeah, that chart doesn't count, sorry.

Once again, I never said that chart is followed perfectly. Just used it as a basis of discussion. Obviously it's not perfect, Denver never did get good chart value on our trades down last year.

Anyway, I'm done. Can't use the value chart for a discussion, and have to try to have a conversation based on broad brush generalizations, and 'straw man " arguments. Not my idea of fun.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one who doesn't believe in Brock Osweiler? I mean, he's in the best possible situation and everything but there is just something about the kid that I don't like. Laughing


I just don't think he's mentally capable of being a good QB. He should've stayed in school for another year. It might have helped him a little bit.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't believe in Brock Osweiler? I mean, he's in the best possible situation and everything but there is just something about the kid that I don't like. Laughing


I just don't think he's mentally capable of being a good QB. He should've stayed in school for another year. It might have helped him a little bit.


Judging by his play at ASU and his preseason play, the kid has a long long long way to go. Basically he is tall, mobile and has a cannon. Other than that, he is as undeveloped as they come. He was a 4th or 5th rounder to me.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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Location: Where I will, I'll roam.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't believe in Brock Osweiler? I mean, he's in the best possible situation and everything but there is just something about the kid that I don't like. Laughing


I just don't think he's mentally capable of being a good QB. He should've stayed in school for another year. It might have helped him a little bit.


Judging by his play at ASU and his preseason play, the kid has a long long long way to go. Basically he is tall, mobile and has a cannon. Other than that, he is as undeveloped as they come. He was a 4th or 5th rounder to me.


His offense was such a joke. Almost every pass was a swing/bubble screen, or something out of the backfield.
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[quote="Reggie Nelson#1"] Radio-"Peyton give the ball to Ball. Ball drops the ball & Ball scoops it up! He's going downfield, TOUCHDOWN! Ball pats him on the back for when he lost the ball."[/quote]
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
_________________
[quote="Reggie Nelson#1"] Radio-"Peyton give the ball to Ball. Ball drops the ball & Ball scoops it up! He's going downfield, TOUCHDOWN! Ball pats him on the back for when he lost the ball."[/quote]
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broncosfan07


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.
He wouldn't of played in a Noel Mazzone offense if he didn't have some smarts.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:
Are we really doubting a player when he hasn't thrown a pass yet? Chances are Brock won't see much time for at least 2 more years.
I'm just saying, I don't think he's mentally capable. There is just something about the guy.


There is literally, and I use that word in it's full meaning, no possible way you can know that. What do you know about Brock Osweiler's situation/practice/history to say he doesn't have the mental ability?

He hasn't thrown a pass yet...none of this makes sense.
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germ-x


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
The value chart is the worst thing to happen to mock drafts in my opinion, lol. I just don't see any way we can move up an exorbitant number of spots without giving much up. Plus, I don't believe we're just a LB away from being set post Peyton Manning...that's why I'm against it.


And the bolded my friend is the epitome of a "straw man" argument. If you want to say, "I don't see anyway we can move from 25 to 7, only giving up next years #1, DJ and maybe a 4th" thats fine.

Instead you redefine the specific argument in your own terms, IE: "exorbitant" and "not giving up much".

You really do work in DC don't you?


Sorry AKRNA, the only straw man argument here is yours and it is easily seen by your mockery of nearly everyone's post on the subject.

That is exactly what everyone is saying (that 2 1sts and DJ Williams isn't enough to make that trade), heck i flat out said that your proposal would be a low ball offer. You have yet to provide any evidence aside from the trade value chart to refute my opinion and instead continually use the "straw man argument" as your key point in your response, while also getting defensive and posting your Laughing and how it is too funny and you need to stop now....which are usually pretty good signs of someone who doesn't know how to respond.

Are you sure you're not the one living in DC?
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