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DawgSoldier


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
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Location: Medina OH
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Batted passes Reply with quote

I was looking threw some of my DVR games and I think most of the batted passes are 3 step drops where the tackles don't engage the pass rushers. more Schwartz than Thomas though.


Thoughts?
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TeHDruiD


Joined: 01 Jan 2010
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Location: Canton, OH
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

DawgSoldier wrote:
I was looking threw some of my DVR games and I think most of the batted passes are 3 step drops where the tackles don't engage the pass rushers. more Schwartz than Thomas though.


Thoughts?


Yep, this is definitely the case. Like the announcers said during the game, it's the new thing defenses are teaching their guys. If they see that it's a 3 step drop, they know they won't get there so they jump up to bat the passes. I think our OL coach needs to start to teach these guys that on 3 step drops the DL are going to try to bat the passes instead of getting after the QB and get them to engage and force the DL to get their arms down

You're also right in Schwartz is more guilty of this than anyone, but it's been happening on both sides of the line, so I think it's a coaching error that needs to be adjusted a bit because Weeden has guys open on those plays the majority of the time since they're quick hitter type plays. I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

TeHDruiD wrote:
I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it


I rather him have kick set to far and the pass get knocked down than to him kick set to short and he gets beat around the end.

I rather have the ball knocked down than the QB sacked or hit. I say its better to have 2nd and 10 than 2nd 15.

i think Weeden needs to start using a small pump fake once and awhile and not allow the DL to time up their jumps to knock down passes. Big ben is very good at using pump fakes to trick the DL
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TeHDruiD


Joined: 01 Jan 2010
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Location: Canton, OH
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it


I rather him have kick set to far and the pass get knocked down than to him kick set to short and he gets beat around the end.

I rather have the ball knocked down than the QB sacked or hit. I say its better to have 2nd and 10 than 2nd 15.

i think Weeden needs to start using a small pump fake once and awhile and not allow the DL to time up their jumps to knock down passes. Big ben is very good at using pump fakes to trick the DL


It's a 3 step drop, the ball should be out before any pressure can get there. The fact that Weeden is throwing the ball tells me his initial read is open quick like it's designed. In all other cases I'd agree, but not on a 3 step drop play
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freakygeniuskid


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

TeHDruiD wrote:

It's a 3 step drop, the ball should be out before any pressure can get there. The fact that Weeden is throwing the ball tells me his initial read is open quick like it's designed. In all other cases I'd agree, but not on a 3 step drop play


I'm with TD on this. I think on three stepdrops you need to either engage or go for the DL's legs because they're getting better and better trained to jump/knock them down on 3 step drops.

Another way to help with this would be to pump fake a three step drop then hand off on a delay, if the D-linemen jump the O-line will have an easy knock down block.
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

TeHDruiD wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it


I rather him have kick set to far and the pass get knocked down than to him kick set to short and he gets beat around the end.

I rather have the ball knocked down than the QB sacked or hit. I say its better to have 2nd and 10 than 2nd 15.

i think Weeden needs to start using a small pump fake once and awhile and not allow the DL to time up their jumps to knock down passes. Big ben is very good at using pump fakes to trick the DL


It's a 3 step drop, the ball should be out before any pressure can get there. The fact that Weeden is throwing the ball tells me his initial read is open quick like it's designed. In all other cases I'd agree, but not on a 3 step drop play


IMO a lot of three step passes are not always 3 step drops Weeden does have a quick trigger at times but not always.

I dont think its the tackles kick set that is setting up the ability for the defender to knock down the pass.

IMO when a tackle jumps up or puts his hands up to bat a ball, the linemen needs to punish him for doing that. He jumps: you knock his ass hard down to the ground. If he puts his hands up: you give him a good pass set punch right into the gut. You do that once and they will hesitate to do it a second time, if they do keep trying you keep punishing them for doing that.

coaching high school this year and we faced a team: Kenston Bombers, they have a LT who should easily receive a couple DI offeers just destroyed our DEs when ever they jumped to bat pass downs. Played against Chargin Falls last week and they have a LT who is committed to Miami of Ohio and with a strong playoff push he could land a big 10 offer or two. When ever we had a defensive linemen jump up or put their hands up he punished them to the ground. I dont ever see that out of the browns linemens. Like if the defender jumps they just let them. I think the Browns offensive line coach needs to start teaching that. another thing I dont like about our offensive line, no one on the line has a mean streak to them. They seem way to nice. I dont ever see them cleaning up plays or finishing off blocks

also changing up to short kick sets and big kick sets, i feel like would start messing with their technique.

I would like to see more aggressive pass sets out of them like jump sets but I feel like with how athletic the defensive linemen are that they would just kill our offensive line if they did that
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FLAbrownfan


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it


I rather him have kick set to far and the pass get knocked down than to him kick set to short and he gets beat around the end.

I rather have the ball knocked down than the QB sacked or hit. I say its better to have 2nd and 10 than 2nd 15.

i think Weeden needs to start using a small pump fake once and awhile and not allow the DL to time up their jumps to knock down passes. Big ben is very good at using pump fakes to trick the DL


It's a 3 step drop, the ball should be out before any pressure can get there. The fact that Weeden is throwing the ball tells me his initial read is open quick like it's designed. In all other cases I'd agree, but not on a 3 step drop play


IMO a lot of three step passes are not always 3 step drops Weeden does have a quick trigger at times but not always.

I dont think its the tackles kick set that is setting up the ability for the defender to knock down the pass.

IMO when a tackle jumps up or puts his hands up to bat a ball, the linemen needs to punish him for doing that. He jumps: you knock his ass hard down to the ground. If he puts his hands up: you give him a good pass set punch right into the gut. You do that once and they will hesitate to do it a second time, if they do keep trying you keep punishing them for doing that.

coaching high school this year and we faced a team: Kenston Bombers, they have a LT who should easily receive a couple DI offeers just destroyed our DEs when ever they jumped to bat pass downs. Played against Chargin Falls last week and they have a LT who is committed to Miami of Ohio and with a strong playoff push he could land a big 10 offer or two. When ever we had a defensive linemen jump up or put their hands up he punished them to the ground. I dont ever see that out of the browns linemens. Like if the defender jumps they just let them. I think the Browns offensive line coach needs to start teaching that. another thing I dont like about our offensive line, no one on the line has a mean streak to them. They seem way to nice. I dont ever see them cleaning up plays or finishing off blocks

also changing up to short kick sets and big kick sets, i feel like would start messing with their technique.

I would like to see more aggressive pass sets out of them like jump sets but I feel like with how athletic the defensive linemen are that they would just kill our offensive line if they did that


Buno is absolutely correct here, your tackles still have to take there sets if it's more then a 1 step PSR - then and only then should your lineman come off aggressive or automatic cut off the line.

As far as the Kick step we use a pretty vertical set and the length of the kick often is determined by the width of the defender to you, if he is tight it a shorter first kick so you don't give away the inside lane, if they get real wide then you can take two quick kicks to cut off the rusher. But on a 3-5-7 step drops you CAN NOT aggressively attack the edge because of you miss your QB is going to get wacked. The worst thing in pass pro is for an tackle going at a guy with weight and head forward because then a defender can easiley grab you and throw you off-balance. Anything can happen sometimes the QB just doesn't let the ball go and if protection is good then they can go threw a progression.

And punching the gut is something I also don't see our tackles do, I tell my players the same thing but I tell my kids to punch the ribs in if they put hands up, and if your engaged while they jump we have a technique that my kids have nicknamed "dat twerk thing coach" Laughing and I tell you what after one "twerk" or shot to the ribs it gets the hands down and lanes open.

Batted down passes are also on the QB at times, if you have a give away before you throw or just a long or low release that will hurt, plus staring down a WR or just taking too long on a quick throw can get one batted down.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Batted passes Reply with quote

FLAbrownfan wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TeHDruiD wrote:
I think it was Rich Gannon who put it best on one of the tipped passes, he said Schwartz was taking way too big of a kick step on a 3 step drop pass and he's too far away from the DE to engage because of it


I rather him have kick set to far and the pass get knocked down than to him kick set to short and he gets beat around the end.

I rather have the ball knocked down than the QB sacked or hit. I say its better to have 2nd and 10 than 2nd 15.

i think Weeden needs to start using a small pump fake once and awhile and not allow the DL to time up their jumps to knock down passes. Big ben is very good at using pump fakes to trick the DL


It's a 3 step drop, the ball should be out before any pressure can get there. The fact that Weeden is throwing the ball tells me his initial read is open quick like it's designed. In all other cases I'd agree, but not on a 3 step drop play


IMO a lot of three step passes are not always 3 step drops Weeden does have a quick trigger at times but not always.

I dont think its the tackles kick set that is setting up the ability for the defender to knock down the pass.

IMO when a tackle jumps up or puts his hands up to bat a ball, the linemen needs to punish him for doing that. He jumps: you knock his ass hard down to the ground. If he puts his hands up: you give him a good pass set punch right into the gut. You do that once and they will hesitate to do it a second time, if they do keep trying you keep punishing them for doing that.

coaching high school this year and we faced a team: Kenston Bombers, they have a LT who should easily receive a couple DI offeers just destroyed our DEs when ever they jumped to bat pass downs. Played against Chargin Falls last week and they have a LT who is committed to Miami of Ohio and with a strong playoff push he could land a big 10 offer or two. When ever we had a defensive linemen jump up or put their hands up he punished them to the ground. I dont ever see that out of the browns linemens. Like if the defender jumps they just let them. I think the Browns offensive line coach needs to start teaching that. another thing I dont like about our offensive line, no one on the line has a mean streak to them. They seem way to nice. I dont ever see them cleaning up plays or finishing off blocks

also changing up to short kick sets and big kick sets, i feel like would start messing with their technique.

I would like to see more aggressive pass sets out of them like jump sets but I feel like with how athletic the defensive linemen are that they would just kill our offensive line if they did that


Buno is absolutely correct here, your tackles still have to take there sets if it's more then a 1 step PSR - then and only then should your lineman come off aggressive or automatic cut off the line.

As far as the Kick step we use a pretty vertical set and the length of the kick often is determined by the width of the defender to you, if he is tight it a shorter first kick so you don't give away the inside lane, if they get real wide then you can take two quick kicks to cut off the rusher. But on a 3-5-7 step drops you CAN NOT aggressively attack the edge because of you miss your QB is going to get wacked. The worst thing in pass pro is for an tackle going at a guy with weight and head forward because then a defender can easiley grab you and throw you off-balance. Anything can happen sometimes the QB just doesn't let the ball go and if protection is good then they can go threw a progression.

And punching the gut is something I also don't see our tackles do, I tell my players the same thing but I tell my kids to punch the ribs in if they put hands up, and if your engaged while they jump we have a technique that my kids have nicknamed "dat twerk thing coach" Laughing and I tell you what after one "twerk" or shot to the ribs it gets the hands down and lanes open.

Batted down passes are also on the QB at times, if you have a give away before you throw or just a long or low release that will hurt, plus staring down a WR or just taking too long on a quick throw can get one batted down.


yeah i want my linemen to just punch in the mid section, if its the ribs, stomach, or what. if they are jumping I tell them to aim for the balls. one shot there and they would never jump or put their hands up. You can get away with that in high school and some levels of college but in the NFL with all the cameras they can catch you doing that than you would get in trouble lol.

there is always a way a good offensive linemen can take away a defensive linemens moves. like if you have a bull rusher, a good jump set can take away their moment before they even get a chance to get going. A speed rusher, if you have a great kick set you can take their outside rush away from them and just ride them out of the pocket. You have a jumper, a good punch to the ribs, stomach/ balls would stop them from jumps. you have someone who likes to spin, when they spin you give them some good punches to the back/kidneys once or twice, they would stop spinning.

im not talking full on punches like winding up and punching but using the recommended 6-8in punchs offensive line should use. You should generate enough force that you will make some players pay for what they do. After doing those things, defensive linemen will get mad enough that they will stop caring about the play and will just want to physically harm you. I remember in college, i made a defensive tackle so much that during a play he blew off the play, went after me, grabbed my facemask, twisted/ripped off my helmet and threw it 15yards down field. Yeah it hurt, i assured me that I got to him, and it always was flagged as faskmask and my offense turned a 12-13yard pass into a 27-28yard play with the 15yards I helped us gain.

a lot of our linemen dont have meanstreaks and you do see them doing that. I dont see OSU linemen doing that either. Im always begging my high school kids to get meaner, play with anger, become an A-hole on the field. I tell them I want to hear the ref giving you warnings for playing to rough. I want you to find work down field, to finish off blocks, and clean up the tackle piles. I want the opposing coaches to tell their kids to watch up for 77 or whatever that he is one nasty kid. That will get the opposing defensive linemen or LBs mind not 100% on every play because they will have a little bit of doubt that this nasty linemen will just wreck him on a play or two.

playing DII football, i wasnt the biggest linemen so i had to make it up with my technique and the attitude I brought onto the field. if I had a chance to cut you, I was going to cut you, if I had a chance to clean you off your feet I took it, If I had a chance to hit you in the ribs or back in pass sets I took it. I loved playing a 3-4 front when they didnt blitz because my keys were LB to DE and if the LBs were gone and the DEs were handled by the Tackles it was our job to come clean up the NT. nothing better than seeing my center just stonewalling the NT and myself or the other guard coming in and just wrecking that NT
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