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KamTrus20


Joined: 17 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Browns Prospects Spot Light :: Jarvis Jones Reply with quote

Before I even start let me make it clear I am not a Jarvis Jones hater, I'm not labeling him a bust, I'm not saying he is a bad football player or anything else you may come up with. I am simply going to give a very worrisome observation of his play.

I have watched 15 of his 19 sacks the last 2 season and 23 of his 29 tackles for a loss. I watched the Missouri and Tennessee games this year as well as numerous others last season. I have watched as many highlights as I could find.

After watching I found that I never once saw him beat and OT with a pass rush move and I never once say him out power an OT. He is simply blowing by OTs with speed and quickness. I also found that the majority of those plays came against the RT the slower and less athletic of the tackles(typically). He is simply the best athlete on the field at the college level and that is no going to cut it in the NFL.

I'm not here to say he will never develope pass rushing moves, strength or a bull rush, however, guys that are Top 5 locks are suppose to have abilities like that coming into the leauge. Von Miller was a terror with multiple pass rushing moves coming out of Texas A&M. DeMarcus Ware used several pass rushing moves. So many are already putting Jones in that elite company and I don't see it at least not yet.

I want to see him have to work to beat and OT for a sack and I want to see him use a rip, swim, club, spin or anything to get into the back field before I am ready to put this guy in the Top 5.

He does have good instincts I will give him that much and you cannot coach instincts.

Overall, right now, I would like to target him somewhere between 8-15
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DawgSoldier


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He projects as 43 SAM imo in this current D alignment. The MO of both Heckart and Banners time at PHI rate LB 3rd in importance on D.

IIRC Heckart is on record saying how he rates it as: DL DB and then LB.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DawgSoldier wrote:
He projects as 43 SAM imo in this current D alignment. The MO of both Heckart and Banners time at PHI rate LB 3rd in importance on D.

IIRC Heckart is on record saying how he rates it as: DL DB and then LB.


This.

Heckert has never drafted a LB higher than the 3rd round IIRC. He believes in using the premium picks, as DS stated, on the front and back of the defense.

Worked OK in Philly.

As a player, I like Jones, but I don't think he fits what we enough to be selected by our FO.
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KamTrus20


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
DawgSoldier wrote:
He projects as 43 SAM imo in this current D alignment. The MO of both Heckart and Banners time at PHI rate LB 3rd in importance on D.

IIRC Heckart is on record saying how he rates it as: DL DB and then LB.


This.

Heckert has never drafted a LB higher than the 3rd round IIRC. He believes in using the premium picks, as DS stated, on the front and back of the defense.

Worked OK in Philly.

As a player, I like Jones, but I don't think he fits what we enough to be selected by our FO.


I agree he doesn't fit what we do right now and I know Heckart is not big on linebackers and neither am I, however, there is a great chance Heckart is no longer here and we may have a new defensive system as well.

I only bring up Jones because he seems to be a favorite of many right now and projected to go right where we are projected to be drafting.
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Dawgpoun8017


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly the only thing that scares me about him is his neck
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buno67


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Browns Prospects Spot Light :: Jarvis Jones Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
Before I even start let me make it clear I am not a Jarvis Jones hater, I'm not labeling him a bust, I'm not saying he is a bad football player or anything else you may come up with. I am simply going to give a very worrisome observation of his play.

I have watched 15 of his 19 sacks the last 2 season and 23 of his 29 tackles for a loss. I watched the Missouri and Tennessee games this year as well as numerous others last season. I have watched as many highlights as I could find.

After watching I found that I never once saw him beat and OT with a pass rush move and I never once say him out power an OT. He is simply blowing by OTs with speed and quickness. I also found that the majority of those plays came against the RT the slower and less athletic of the tackles(typically). He is simply the best athlete on the field at the college level and that is no going to cut it in the NFL.

I'm not here to say he will never develope pass rushing moves, strength or a bull rush, however, guys that are Top 5 locks are suppose to have abilities like that coming into the leauge. Von Miller was a terror with multiple pass rushing moves coming out of Texas A&M. DeMarcus Ware used several pass rushing moves. So many are already putting Jones in that elite company and I don't see it at least not yet.

I want to see him have to work to beat and OT for a sack and I want to see him use a rip, swim, club, spin or anything to get into the back field before I am ready to put this guy in the Top 5.

He does have good instincts I will give him that much and you cannot coach instincts.

Overall, right now, I would like to target him somewhere between 8-15


OK I youtubed Jarvis Jones to see if your thoughts on him are true.
the video I looked at was the Florida game last year. I want to look at the Mizzu game this year later on but this is what i saw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weoTTVD3yBY

1:12
- uses a nice fake inside step, to set up a arm club swim move on a RT
1:37- nice a pass rush move or anything but takes on a bigger stronger guard pretty.
1:44- has a nice bull rush against the LT, notices himself getting past the QBs depth so he stops and uses a good shedd move to the inside to get the sack
2:05- reads a lil WR screen perfect and gets held by the LT
2:10- freaking kills the LT will a nasty fake outside and inside move. Gets the LT to sell out to make the block but he fails and Jones gets the sack
2:31- play is bad because of the bad snap but the RT didnt know that. Jones catches him leaning forward and pulls nice lil shedding move
3:39- causes a fumble on a hit. just a nice play that I wanted to include lol
5:17- he got the RT worrying so much that he attempted to cut him. Jones has such a good outside step that the RT cut outside but Jones planted inside but he got picked up by the guard
6:09- god awareness to come back and beat the tackle inside and get a hit on the QB
6:30- he does an amazing job of timing up the LTs punch and swipes them away like nothing. Is able to get to the edge freely and gets the sack

I saw a lot of good things out of Jones. you think he used speed everytime? I saw him using a few moves on his sacks. The one thing I really love about him is his feet. He has amazing feet and uses his quickness and explosiveness to set up the tackles with his feet and hips before he even attempts a pass rushing move. He had some decent rip and club moves but they might not be to your liking. they werent anything over powering but his lil rips and clubs allowed him enough clearance to beat the tackles and get pressure of the sack. He has great instinct at timing up a tackles punch. A few times he timed it perfectly and was able to swipe their hands away and be able to get away from the tackles clean. He has a very nice motor. He chase down a lot of plays. I loved it that he would always contact the inside reciever if it was a TE or WR so they didnt get clean releases.

We must have different ideas or look at different things when were looking at Jones or the opposing offensive line. at times i saw him utilize the speed rush, well why not its his best move going against the tackles but IMO he did show some good pass rush moves.

IMO he would prolly look better playing in a 4-3 defende than he does at Georgia. From watching last years Florida game they would only rush 4 players. 3 DL and him playing as a stand up DE. playing in the NFL hopefully the Browns as an outside LB. He would be coming on blitzes where we sending him and 4 DL. We have Winn, Taylor, Rubin, and Sheard, rushing a long with Jones. that would be sick. Jones wont get as many double teams sent his way and Taylor and Rubin would eat up the blockers better to allow some damn good rush lanes for Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO6wLT48vjY

now his highlight film.
:34- he has a nice little rip move, shows great hips "running the cirlce" without losing speed and beats the Guard for a sack
:39- its a lil hard to see but looks like he had a good inside move on the LT that turned into a bullrush and runs the LT into the QB and gets the sack
:45- shows a nice bullrush on the FB to force a fumble on the QB
1:03- the defensive play call allows for him to get a free shot on the QB. I can see plays like that being called for him in Cleveland

from his highlight i saw some other great things from him. near the end a lot of it was stuff from the Florida game. the one thing I love about him he just seems like he is a punishing hitter, that he is gonna hurt anything he tackles
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KamTrus20


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. OT Stud there like a rock. He studder stepped and you call that a good inside fake?

2. He got into a shoving match with a pulling guard where does this show pass rushing moves?

3. That is one of the better plays I've seen

4. Again what does this have to do with pass rushing moves? I said he has great instincts

5. Again straigt up killed him with athletic abliity. All he did was start on way and put his fut in the groun and go. Do you think Joe Thomas, Jake Long or Joe Staley are going to fall of that or get run by that easy?

6. RT lunged at him and Jones gave him the olay. Seriously you think that is a great pass rush move?

7. Didn't say he couldn't hit. Didn't see the pass rush move

8. Again just a jab step and the RT lunged. Do you think NFL tackles are going to do that? Didn't think so.

9. Pass was already gone. OT wins.

10. He did use and arm whip there but seriously that was weak. NFL tackles would eat the up all day on sundays.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he really need muscle
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kam, I've said this before about Jones, I agree with what you are saying.

-Not nearly the athlete Von Miller is

-Fantastic football IQ

-good short area mobility, not elite

-very good tackler

-Puts himself into a position to win.

-Always maintains gap assignment.


This is why I compared him to a younger Scott Fujita.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
1. OT Stud there like a rock. He studder stepped and you call that a good inside fake?

he got the RT to bite on it, you get the OT to bit, it was a good inside fake. it was also a perfect set up for his swim move

2. He got into a shoving match with a pulling guard where does this show pass rushing moves?

wasnt trying to point out his pass rushing. I just liked it how he came in and took on that guard. just got me thinking, it can show him having the ability to take on a lead blocker

3. That is one of the better plays I've seen

it was a great play for him. I hope when I look at his Mizzu that its more consistent

4. Again what does this have to do with pass rushing moves? I said he has great instincts

i added something in that i just liked lol

5. Again straigt up killed him with athletic abliity. All he did was start on way and put his fut in the groun and go. Do you think Joe Thomas, Jake Long or Joe Staley are going to fall of that or get run by that easy?

Ive seen Joe Thomas get beat by moves like that the past two years. in college Jones is playing DE. In the NFL for the browns hopefully he is playing an OLB for us. So he will be going up against inside linemen and right tackles, players he will be more physically gifted. jones wont be coming off the left side every single play

6. RT lunged at him and Jones gave him the olay. Seriously you think that is a great pass rush move?

gave him more than the olay, the were engaged and Jones was able to shedd the RT. You can see him using the RT lung against him and IMO you can see him popping his hips to the left to create more space

7. Didn't say he couldn't hit. Didn't see the pass rush move

i stated it was just a play I wanted to show ppl because it was pretty nice.

8. Again just a jab step and the RT lunged. Do you think NFL tackles are going to do that? Didn't think so.

actually it was a bad play by us. looking at it again. the RT was just cutting the end man on the LOS. So the RT wasnt lunging he was just cutting. the pass protection of the play picked up Jones and the rest of the defense pretty well

9. Pass was already gone. OT wins.
yes the pass was already gone. Jones pressure helps lead to a poorly thrown pass that was incomplete and he got a good shot on the QB. IMO win by the defense. Anytime a defender put my QB on the ground I considered it a lose. the blockers job is to keep your QB or RB up on their feet.

10. He did use and arm whip there but seriously that was weak. NFL tackles would eat the up all day on sundays

it may look weak but we dont know how hard it is or how strong he performs it.

.


you keep saying, if he does that to NFL Tackles, he will get rocked...well good thing we have coaches who are in charge and get paid a lot of money to coach him up. Also its a good thing he has a chance to work with one of the best tackles in the league every day


my take on his game vs Mizzu

before I attempt to break it down and his pass rushing. I think it wont be the greates because Mizzu throws a lot of quick passes and will most likely get the ball out before Jones gets there

:24- shows a nice lil bullrush, forces the tackle back a good yard, yard and half. Ball is gone before he even gets a chance to apply pressure
;37- negative, gets fooled by the option play. IMO he needs to force the QB to make a decision because he just tackled the QB or because he tackled the RB. Hes gotta be more aggressive on that play
1:30- negative, the offense just used his speed against him. He wants to get up field so they blocked him out and just ran underneath him
1:43- it was him playing the run nice IMO
2:10- played the option very well
2:22- the RT mauls him
2:35- looks like he gets bear, doesnt give up and forces a fumble
3:00- forces another fumble
4:07- forces another fumble
5:39- attempts to pull a spin move, it looked awful. IMO i hate pass rushers who use the spin.
6:33- nice stunt ran that had Jones going inside. I like it a lot. something that will be asked of him in the NFL IMO
6:40- played the run pretty well. took the edge away
6:46- nice awareness to use the tackles momentum against him to setup going inside. Yes, i know he doesnt sack him but gets a good hit on him
6:55- made a nice pick
7:33- forces another fumble

ok this game he didnt look very good at pass rushing. Had a couple good moves here or there but also looked bad at times. the one thing good about this film is just his instincts. This kid has a freaking nose for the ball and he just creates turnovers. Another thing I liked seeing from him from this video was his ability to play the run. He is just a great LB from sideline to sideline. Something the browns dont have. Feel like mizzu built their passing attack to take jones out of the game. The QB never held onto the ball but they didnt really plan the running attack against him because he did very well against the run

one thing you said is he wont be the like DeMarcus Ware because he has a lot of pass rush moves. watching some of DeMarcus Ware highlights, he utilizes his speed rush a lot more then any other pass rush move he has. Watching his highlights the main thing i see from Ware is he has great speed/quickness, has good hands, and a great motor. Like watching his sacks, he beats the OTs to the outside with his speed, uses a nice hand swipe, and than gets to the QB. I havent seen Ware just pull out nasty rip move or a over powering club. IMO the DEs who arnt as fast usually developed a nasty rip or an over powering club but they needed to because of their lack of speed. If you have a nasty speed rush your going to get OTs off balance by making them play quicker than they can play and so any kind of a rip or club is going to give the speed rusher enough space to get to the QB

started to watch some JJ Watt highlights from his senior year, he didnt even have a dominating rip move or club. he would use his speed and quickness. Saw him do a lot of speed rushes, get to the corner, have good hands, and just get past the tackle. Watts had one hell of a motor, great instincts, and was extremely quick. Like those are all thing you cant coach. that technique you can teach and learn and we all know how good of a player JJ Watts has become for the Texans

im just saying Jones has a great foundation to build a good defensive player on. Hell no you got me watching highlights of some great DE/OLB that came out of college not to long ago. Watching some Ryan Kerrigan highlights and he is just killing oppoents with his speed and instincts, im not seeing any crazy rips or clubs. Watched Von Miller highlights from when he was at T A&M, im not seeing any amazing rips, clubs, or spins. I just see his athletic ability freaking killing tackles. Even see Von Miller doing the little studder steps to beat tackles, the same lil move Jones uses, that you were killing him on. watching highlights from Von Miller's rookie year, im seeing him beating tackles with his hands but not allowing the OT to get his hands on him and using his speed. in the highlight it showed one good spin move and at the very end it shows a pretty good bull rush.

i feel like you holding Jarvis Jone up to established LBs who have had time to perfect their craft. going back and comparing Jones to some of the better pass rushers when they were coming out, they werent doing anything so complicated like setting up an outside move with a rip and followed it up with a club and etc...they just used their speed and ball hawking skills
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KamTrus20


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just rewatched the Alabama game. As bad as Manti Te'o showed in the BCS Title game Jarvis Jones was that much worse. He was owned in one on one situation by Cyrus so they moved him to the other side against Fluker where he had minimal success. Even Michael Williams and Brian Vogler had there way with him in the pass and run games. He missed 3 tackles and was consistantly washed out of the run game or even worse on his can. Anything positive he did came against by far the weakest link of the entire Alabama team D.J. Fluker.

Speaking of Fluker...down right awful. I want to go back and watch all bama games and see how many pressures and sacks he gave up. Every time a pass rusher has a good game I look up and it was against Fluker. Why this guy came out is beyond me. He is far worse than Massie ever was and Masse fell to the 4th round.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Kam


People are making him out to be the next Von Miller.

He is just not a great pass rusher
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DawgSoldier


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
I agree Kam


People are making him out to be the next Von Miller.

He is just not a great pass rusher

plus the whole spinal stenoisis thing makes me want to have nothing to do with him.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DawgSoldier wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
I agree Kam


People are making him out to be the next Von Miller.

He is just not a great pass rusher

plus the whole spinal stenoisis thing makes me want to have nothing to do with him.


Ya, that's just the dagger.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jones will be a second round pick.

Low first at best.
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