Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Time for Lebeau to go.....
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stillersenat


Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 10973
Location: In over my head.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:

We beat brady with non lebeau D as well, so essentially 0-5 IMO because if it was traditional lebeau D vs brady, the results would have been the same as in years past


Dude, you are really setting yourself up for failure by stating that. I would pull that one back in if I were you.
_________________


CaptainParker wrote:

Bubby outplayed Elway in everything....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2349
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillersenat wrote:
3rivers wrote:

We beat brady with non lebeau D as well, so essentially 0-5 IMO because if it was traditional lebeau D vs brady, the results would have been the same as in years past


Dude, you are really setting yourself up for failure by stating that. I would pull that one back in if I were you.


How so? Prove it.

History proves the statement , otherwise I would have never said that. The press man to man coverage was the difference in that game , and that is not his usual defense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stillersenat


Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 10973
Location: In over my head.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
stillersenat wrote:
3rivers wrote:

We beat brady with non lebeau D as well, so essentially 0-5 IMO because if it was traditional lebeau D vs brady, the results would have been the same as in years past


Dude, you are really setting yourself up for failure by stating that. I would pull that one back in if I were you.


How so? Prove it.

History proves the statement , otherwise I would have never said that. The press man to man coverage was the difference in that game , and that is not his usual defense.


You think he calls soft zone all the time? Even during a game? You think he says, "Well I said we would do cover 3 bump and run, so I have to stick to it no matter what-for every play during the game."

Tell me, what is Lebeaus' traditional defense?
_________________


CaptainParker wrote:

Bubby outplayed Elway in everything....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 3210
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
Does it not make sense that if you show a list of QBs that are THE reason for the #1 rank you presume a different outcome IF they played others?

I showed you a fact. Thats what I did. QBs we actually played.

Why is this so hard to understand? The whole bases of your argument against the significance of the #1 ranking is who we played. This HAS TO assume that the ranking would be different if we played someone else. Why else would you say it? This is hypothetical.

FourThreeMafia wrote:
YOU are the one bringing up the hypotheticals.


Where?

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Says the guy who says he deals with facts and then goes the complete opposite way. Yeah.


Again. Where?

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Thats your argument? Really?


Does it not stress the point that QBs aren't having they're best games against the Steelers. If it is my argument that the Steeler D does NOT struggle anymore against the top QBs than any other team, and that even below average QBs have good games against top defenses does it not fit? In this case (Sanchez), we played him better (at least at the time of the post). Is this not relevant?

FourThreeMafia wrote:
For one, you need to try reading better because I never claimed we had the worst defense in the league or anything like that.


You need to take your own advice. Nor did I. I made an assumption that IF the Steelers were ranked 32 my guess is you'd complain about that. Rightfully so. The point being made is that you can't say the #1 ranking doesn't matter or mean anything but the 32nd ranking does. Does this make sense? Again, based on the assumption you would care if they were #32. I thought I had made that clear. Perhaps not.

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Secondly, its hilarious how you cherry pick in an effort to make an argument.


Where?

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Even if you consider Sanchez game last night vs the Texans better than his game vs the Steelers, that doesnt prove a thing in terms of whose better...especiallly when you consdier Sanchez is one of the most inconsistent QBs in the league.


I'm confused. It seems like you're arguing in favor of my overall point here.

FourThreeMafia wrote:
You literally proved nothing, so no...Im not wrong.


And here lies the problem. You do not have the ability to see it any other way.
_________________


Last edited by Chieferific on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 3210
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
stillersenat wrote:
3rivers wrote:

We beat brady with non lebeau D as well, so essentially 0-5 IMO because if it was traditional lebeau D vs brady, the results would have been the same as in years past


Dude, you are really setting yourself up for failure by stating that. I would pull that one back in if I were you.


How so? Prove it.

History proves the statement , otherwise I would have never said that. The press man to man coverage was the difference in that game , and that is not his usual defense.

So he made an adjustment?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8105
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is man press coverage not a LeBeau defense? Did io iss something and Lebeau did not come up with the defensive plan to beat the Pats? Was he on vacation that week?
_________________

"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9958
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a misinterpretation based on what we've seen from LeBeau since 2009.

For the most part, LeBeau has played a risk-averse, soft defense. He sends 4, drops everyone into soft zones. He doesn't take chances. Doesn't get creative with his defense. He relies on Troy to make ridiculous plays, and Deebo and Woodley to beat their guys straight up. No scheming for pressure, just hoping his guys make up for a boring, uninspired defensive plan.

He broke out his mad genius hat again and had blitz packages that I haven't seen with that type of consistency since 2008.

it was a thing of beauty. The old man took a double dose of viagra and chased it with a few Jägerbomb

I liked it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Kethy: Why this game though? Did he think, if we sat back that Vick would beat us with his legs? He seems to know what it takes to succeed, then doesn't do it. I wouldn't be surprised if he sits back for the game tomorrow and doesn't become creative with blitzes. Just seems some games, maybe a couple a season he brings out the creativity and shows our D's potential and the other games makes us fans to become frustrated and want him to retire already.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 63131
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The defense is old in key areas. It has some young talent that isn't quite ready yet, but they are showing some flashes. It's similar to these current old vets when they were young. They needed plying time and in time they developed, got it and became one of the best defenses in the league.

Yes, there isn't the texans talent, that can't be denied but when Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton can't play like they did a few years back it affects the entire team.

The defense isn't as dominant, but I hardly blame that on Lebeau.

Guys like McLendon/Ta'amu, Worilds, Carter and the young DBs just need a little more playing time and time to learn the game.

I think This is possibly the last year for Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton in a steelers uniform. (sadly Sad ) The cap space needs to be cleared to sign Mike Wallace and add a player or two in spots where needed.

I don't think the scheme needs changed I think te old talent needs replaced and the young guys on the team need a little mre time to develop.
_________________
RIP SSFmike23md
Quote:
Adopt-a-Redskin: Brian Orakpo: 6 tackles, 1, 5 QB hurries
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9958
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
@Kethy: Why this game though? Did he think, if we sat back that Vick would beat us with his legs? He seems to know what it takes to succeed, then doesn't do it. I wouldn't be surprised if he sits back for the game tomorrow and doesn't become creative with blitzes. Just seems some games, maybe a couple a season he brings out the creativity and shows our D's potential and the other games makes us fans to become frustrated and want him to retire already.


i have a few theories

1. Troy and Harrison were back. Those are LeBeau's security blankets. With those guys there, he felt comfortable letting Timmons just flow to the ball, and scheme to get him gaps to fill.

I do agree totally, re: "sit back/doesn't become creative with blitzes"

it's maddening. He KNOW wht the heck to do. it's like his balls shrivel up and he loses the stones to run an aggressive defense now.

2. Vick is stupid. He really is. He wasn't particularly active audibling or adjusting protections. Tht benefitted us. The 64-yard run by DMac was as much Palmer audibling to the PERFECT play as it was Hampton and Timmons screwing the pooch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9958
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
The defense is old in key areas. It has some young talent that isn't quite ready yet, but they are showing some flashes. It's similar to these current old vets when they were young. They needed plying time and in time they developed, got it and became one of the best defenses in the league.

Yes, there isn't the texans talent, that can't be denied but when Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton can't play like they did a few years back it affects the entire team.

The defense isn't as dominant, but I hardly blame that on Lebeau.

Guys like McLendon/Ta'amu, Worilds, Carter and the young DBs just need a little more playing time and time to learn the game.

I think This is possibly the last year for Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton in a steelers uniform. (sadly Sad ) The cap space needs to be cleared to sign Mike Wallace and add a player or two in spots where needed.

I don't think the scheme needs changed I think te old talent needs replaced and the young guys on the team need a little mre time to develop.


disagree.

the 'scheme' needs to be changed. What we just saw was a defense that LeBeau hasn't run in years. A few things he hasn't done in awhile

1. Put Timmons on the line in a 2-point to blitz, on both running downs and passing downs. He also schemed stunts to get Timmons a free run

2. Kept Worilds on the left side, obviously where he belongs. He is so obviously more comfortable there.

3. Put Ziggy inside frequently. Everyone noticed Worilds was better on the left side. Not many noticed just how good Ziggy was when he lined up in the A gap or over Watkins/Reynolds (RG/C)

4. A very quiet game that was underappreciated was had by Foote. Aside from getting turned around backwards by Shady, Foote did a great job blitzing and drawing blockers away from Timmons.

This was LeBeau from a few years ago, not LeBeau from the last 3 seasons. Hopefuly LeBeau sticks with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
at23steelers wrote:
@Kethy: Why this game though? Did he think, if we sat back that Vick would beat us with his legs? He seems to know what it takes to succeed, then doesn't do it. I wouldn't be surprised if he sits back for the game tomorrow and doesn't become creative with blitzes. Just seems some games, maybe a couple a season he brings out the creativity and shows our D's potential and the other games makes us fans to become frustrated and want him to retire already.


i have a few theories

1. Troy and Harrison were back. Those are LeBeau's security blankets. With those guys there, he felt comfortable letting Timmons just flow to the ball, and scheme to get him gaps to fill.

I do agree totally, re: "sit back/doesn't become creative with blitzes"

it's maddening. He KNOW wht the heck to do. it's like his balls shrivel up and he loses the stones to run an aggressive defense now.

2. Vick is stupid. He really is. He wasn't particularly active audibling or adjusting protections. Tht benefitted us. The 64-yard run by DMac was as much Palmer audibling to the PERFECT play as it was Hampton and Timmons screwing the pooch.


Maybe he wants people to appreciate Butler's talents as a DC, so he can make a great impression to become a HC. Lebeau is stinking it up with schemes to make it seem like our D is old, but he gives us these kinds of games to showcase to Butler what he should do when Lebeau retires. Then Butler will use these schemes when Lebeau retires and everyone will pin the success on Butler!! GENIUS! Laughing Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
Why is this so hard to understand? The whole bases of your argument against the significance of the #1 ranking is who we played. This HAS TO assume that the ranking would be different if we played someone else. Why else would you say it? This is hypothetical.


Because I dont understand nonsense. THATS why.

Bottom line is...I presented facts...who we ACTUALLY played, and talked about why their ranking looked so great.

Thats NOT hypothtical. Thats a VALID OPINION based on FACTS.


Chieferific wrote:
Where? Again. Where?


When you started bringing up things that didnt happen (QBs we never played) and talking about how they COULDVE been had we played different teams.

I only raised facts based on who we played, and the part about our weaknesses being masked by playing crappy QBs all year was an opinion based on facts. Nothing hypothetical about it.

Chieferific wrote:
Does it not stress the point that QBs aren't having they're best games against the Steelers.


Even if it does, no one ever even began to stress that QBs WERE having theyre best games against us.

So how exactly is this point relevant?

Chieferific wrote:
If it is my argument that the Steeler D does NOT struggle anymore against the top QBs than any other team, and that even below average QBs have good games against top defenses does it not fit? In this case (Sanchez), we played him better (at least at the time of the post). Is this not relevant?


Except we have struggled more over the past few years against top QBs (thats not saying QBs had their best games against us, either) than many other teams....especially in key game situations, which you conveniently ignored. You do realize that stats arent everything, right?

And the mere fact that you were trying to cherry pick an instance from one half of Sanchez vs the Texans, compare it to the Steelers game this year and apply it to the argument of how our pass defense was last year is hilarious in and of itself.

Chieferific wrote:
You need to take your own advice. Nor did I. I made an assumption that IF the Steelers were ranked 32 my guess is you'd complain about that. Rightfully so. The point being made is that you can't say the #1 ranking doesn't matter or mean anything but the 32nd ranking does. Does this make sense? Again, based on the assumption you would care if they were #32. I thought I had made that clear. Perhaps not.


Once again...THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL.

You keep claiming you dont use them and ask me to point out where you did....here is one for you in advance.

And I never once claimed the number 1 overall rank didnt matter. Id ask you to point out where I did but we both know you cant.

I said that we werent as good as the number 1 overall STATISTICAL ranking says we were, and that we were aided by the fact that we played crap QBs all year.

Just like back in 2008 when Ben didnt have good stats, but I said he played better than his stats implied.

If we had the 32nd ranked defense, and looked better, I would say the same thing. If we had the 32nd ranked defense and looked that bad...yes, Id be mad.

If we had the 1st ranked defense and actually looked like it...I would be thrilled. Thats my point though,...we didnt look like the best pass defense or anywhere close to it. And even when we did, it was when we were playing the worst QBsd in the league.

They didnt look or play like a top defense most of last year....and Im sure most knowledgable and unbias Steeler fans would agree with that.


Chieferific wrote:
Where? (in regards to cherry picking)


The Sanchez example from THIS year.

How exactly does that apply to last year, again?

Chieferific wrote:
I'm confused. It seems like you're arguing in favor of my overall point here.


So I make a point against yours and you claim it was in favor of yours without even pointing out how?

Desperation at its finest.

Chieferific wrote:
And here lies the problem. You do not have the ability to see it any other way.


LMAO....youre just crying because you want me to admit Im wrong yet you havent even begun to prove how.

Sorry guy...not gonna happen.

And quick question....WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU EVEN CLAIMING I AM WRONG ABOUT?

My assessment of why we were ranked number 1? Thats an opinion....but its a valid one based of credible facts and history that many share. How exactly is that wrong?

Please clarify.
_________________
SCPackersFan wrote:
I hold nothing against blue-collar people and I respect/admire them for doing what they do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 63131
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
The defense is old in key areas. It has some young talent that isn't quite ready yet, but they are showing some flashes. It's similar to these current old vets when they were young. They needed plying time and in time they developed, got it and became one of the best defenses in the league.

Yes, there isn't the texans talent, that can't be denied but when Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton can't play like they did a few years back it affects the entire team.

The defense isn't as dominant, but I hardly blame that on Lebeau.

Guys like McLendon/Ta'amu, Worilds, Carter and the young DBs just need a little more playing time and time to learn the game.

I think This is possibly the last year for Harrison, Polumalu and Hampton in a steelers uniform. (sadly Sad ) The cap space needs to be cleared to sign Mike Wallace and add a player or two in spots where needed.

I don't think the scheme needs changed I think te old talent needs replaced and the young guys on the team need a little more time to develop.
disagree.

the 'scheme' needs to be changed. What we just saw was a defense that LeBeau hasn't run in years. A few things he hasn't done in awhile

1. Put Timmons on the line in a 2-point to blitz, on both running downs and passing downs. He also schemed stunts to get Timmons a free run

2. Kept Worilds on the left side, obviously where he belongs. He is so obviously more comfortable there.

3. Put Ziggy inside frequently. Everyone noticed Worilds was better on the left side. Not many noticed just how good Ziggy was when he lined up in the A gap or over Watkins/Reynolds (RG/C)

4. A very quiet game that was underappreciated was had by Foote. Aside from getting turned around backwards by Shady, Foote did a great job blitzing and drawing blockers away from Timmons.

This was LeBeau from a few years ago, not LeBeau from the last 3 seasons. Hopefuly LeBeau sticks with it.
I think were mixing words here. You are talking about making adjustments during the game, which I approve of.

An entire scheme change means they don't run the base 3-4 and how they've run it for a decade or so. I'm not in favor of changing how they run the base D.

Adjustments are great and switching up coverages, blitzes and lineplay are great but don't mess with the base scheme.

Changing the base scheme or how theyve run the D as a 3-4 is a mistake. I've seen it as a redskins fan for 12 years. You start making changes in what is your identity for a long time and then you see a drop off in play as players adjust to the new things they need to do.

I think the problem comes down more to injuries, and young talent that isn't quite ready yet to be the dominant D the steelers were when the current group was in it's prime.

It's about talent, it's always about talent. The steelers have young talent, it just needs more experience. I've said all along with this D, this year is a transition year for these young players and they'd take a Step back on D before taking a step forward. These young guys just haven't gotten "it" yet.

Next draft get a Safety in round 1 to replace Polumalu, probably sign one also. Draft another ilb. It's time to replenish the back 7 of the defense with top talented youth.
_________________
RIP SSFmike23md
Quote:
Adopt-a-Redskin: Brian Orakpo: 6 tackles, 1, 5 QB hurries


Last edited by turtle28 on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8105
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lebeau has always been against not giving up the big play. But he relies on the players staying within the scheme and making plays. It is a "bend not break " approach that may have to change vs certain QBs.

There was a recent article where the Clark was saying that the PLAYERS need to do a better job disguising the coverage/play until the last second. That is why teams/good QBs were picking them apart in the 2nd halves of games.
_________________

"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Pittsburgh Steelers All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group