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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 22039
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:


Gallery was playing a new position in a new scheme. Newberry missed the entire season prior, and only played 1 more season after. Carlisle's success in Denver was similar to Briesel's in Houston.

The biggest difference between the two teams is coaching. Lane Kiffin called the plays and Tom Cable implemented the ZBS. Now that Knapp is responsible for both, it's easy to see where he's falling short.

The Raiders are dead last in rushing. Some of you don't want Greg Knapp to take accountability for that, but he will when the season's over.


Stop trying to downplay players to support your view. Newberry was a stud in Oakland that year. Carlise was highly regarded as a ZBS specialist. He, unlike Brisel hit the ground running and was arguably the best Olinmen.

That Oline could block this scheme. The current one can't.

You need to get past your anti-Knapp agenda and look at things objectively. The biggest issue has been blocking both run and pass this year. That will make any OC look bad.

I'm not a Knapp apologist here. I just think you as well as others try to pile it on the OC, when the talent just isn't there to make a lot happen right now.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZBS doesn't necessarily take years to work.
Reaching an elite level in any system takes more talent than we have and it takes years to build cohesion.

But having successes don't need to take years because of the ZBS. But there are reasons playing into it. A C who missed all of camp and preseason and who is not a seasoned vet in the first place. A RT who has been here for 2 weeks. The guy he replaced not native to the ZBS at all.
The RG is a new player to this team, a ZBS native but still a new guy.
The LG is past his prime, which was not an impressive prime, and who switched sides to the left for the first time after what 10? years?
LT new to the scheme..

So there isn't one piece of our 5 man line to look for as far as stability and continuinty.
I'd imagine that plays into the lack of success so far.
As well as no quality blocking TE, a FB who is not by any means a top notch blocker, a mediocre play caller, and a runner who still needs to understand patience is a big part of the ZBS in running terms.

So all in all, take all of that into account and it's incredibly obvious why we suck at running right now. Every reason possible pretty much..
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 22039
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


What difference is a tightend that don't let his guy go right past him. Are you really asking that. It's going to take years for it to run as good as houstons. It's going to take more than 4 games to run it effectively.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 8256
Location: CA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


A simplistic and repetitive view.
You're right about the part regarding inside running, 100%. We have not even attempted to establish the inside run. Way too much stretch and too soon in games. And that is all on Knapp and whoever he coordinates the game plan with - which means it's on Allen as well.

But once again, it's not nearly the only factor here bro. I know you hate Knapp with passion, but try to expand on that a bit and accept it's more than just him. Our blockers genuinely are either inexperienced or generally suck. And our runner is still in need of learning to be patient and wait for holes. He's never been that type, but if his newfound ability to avoid unnecessary contact is a beacon to anything, hopefully it means there's hope he will continue to learn and progress in other ways.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 8256
Location: CA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


A simplistic and repetitive view.
You're right about the part regarding inside running, 100%. We have not even attempted to establish the inside run. Way too much stretch and too soon in games. And that is all on Knapp and whoever he coordinates the game plan with - which means it's on Allen as well.

But once again, it's not nearly the only factor here bro. I know you hate Knapp with passion, but try to expand on that a bit and accept it's more than just him. Our blockers genuinely are either inexperienced or generally suck. And our runner is still in need of learning to be patient and wait for holes. He's never been that type, but if his newfound ability to avoid unnecessary contact is a beacon to anything, hopefully it means there's hope he will continue to learn and progress in other ways.


The reason you think I hate Knapp is because I don't get sidetracked on the smaller details along the way, while missing the bigger picture. The Raiders line was good enough to block for the best rushing attack in the league before McFadden went down last season, but now their talent level in the ZBS is the worst in the NFL? I just don't see it that way. You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3760
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


He's right on the TE being important in the zone but every time the Raiders run the ball it's a jailbreak there is 3 guys in the backfield.
The center and guards are also very important they have to be able to get to the LBs.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


A simplistic and repetitive view.
You're right about the part regarding inside running, 100%. We have not even attempted to establish the inside run. Way too much stretch and too soon in games. And that is all on Knapp and whoever he coordinates the game plan with - which means it's on Allen as well.

But once again, it's not nearly the only factor here bro. I know you hate Knapp with passion, but try to expand on that a bit and accept it's more than just him. Our blockers genuinely are either inexperienced or generally suck. And our runner is still in need of learning to be patient and wait for holes. He's never been that type, but if his newfound ability to avoid unnecessary contact is a beacon to anything, hopefully it means there's hope he will continue to learn and progress in other ways.


The reason you think I hate Knapp is because I don't get sidetracked on the smaller details along the way, while missing the bigger picture. The Raiders line was good enough to block for the best rushing attack in the league before McFadden went down last season, but now their talent level in the ZBS is the worst in the NFL? I just don't see it that way. You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful.


Saying it's exactly the same line is not really true.
Wiz was at LG, now he's at C.
Carlisle was at RG, now he's at LG first in his career.
RT Barnes is out, Smith is in and a new addition.
Satele gone.
40% of the line not here, 40% changed positions. 1 player out of 5 is the same guy playing the same position, but in a new scheme - it's no wonder he's our best player right now. Changing scheme and position in one year (Wiz - without camp) might as well be a death sentence... 0 players out of 5 playing same position or scheme from last year.

So first, the line is not the same. Not entirely different, but not the same. You can blame the staff for shifting guys around and causing the setback, partially.

Another note is that talent in one scheme is not talent in another. Take the Cowboys line of the 90's and put them in the ZBS and they will struggle. Take the Broncos early 2000s line and put them in the power scheme and they will struggle. Neither are a fit for the other scheme but were absolutely top of the league in the system they played.
Accept that a player is different in either scheme. Accept that a player is a different player, in any scheme, at any position.

The NFL, and almost every franchise operates scouting at their very foundation with what is called "system fits" in personnel. You don't understand that? Come on..


Every facet of the things I mentioned is not "getting sidetracked in the details' as you put it. Knapp, and all of those facets are the parts that make up the big picture. The simple point that you talk about the big picture then refer to only one thing over and over - Knapp - is absurd by sheer definition. You cannot create a big picture and have it consist of only one facet.


This is why you are being an impossible pain - "You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful". I devoted the majority of a paragraph in my last post to openly accepting Knapp's failure to run up the middle early and often. Did you even bother to read my post? Seriously, tell me if you read my post..

I apologize for the mistake of even replying to your post. I should have known by now.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 8256
Location: CA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


A simplistic and repetitive view.
You're right about the part regarding inside running, 100%. We have not even attempted to establish the inside run. Way too much stretch and too soon in games. And that is all on Knapp and whoever he coordinates the game plan with - which means it's on Allen as well.

But once again, it's not nearly the only factor here bro. I know you hate Knapp with passion, but try to expand on that a bit and accept it's more than just him. Our blockers genuinely are either inexperienced or generally suck. And our runner is still in need of learning to be patient and wait for holes. He's never been that type, but if his newfound ability to avoid unnecessary contact is a beacon to anything, hopefully it means there's hope he will continue to learn and progress in other ways.


The reason you think I hate Knapp is because I don't get sidetracked on the smaller details along the way, while missing the bigger picture. The Raiders line was good enough to block for the best rushing attack in the league before McFadden went down last season, but now their talent level in the ZBS is the worst in the NFL? I just don't see it that way. You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful.


Saying it's exactly the same line is not really true.
Wiz was at LG, now he's at C.
Carlisle was at RG, now he's at LG first in his career.
RT Barnes is out, Smith is in and a new addition.
Satele gone.
40% of the line not here, 40% changed positions. 1 player out of 5 is the same guy playing the same position, but in a new scheme. 0 players out of 5 playing same position or scheme from last year.

So first, the line is not the same. Not entirely different, but not the same. You can blame the staff for shifting guys around and causing the setback, partially.

Another note is that talent in one scheme is not talent in another. Take the Cowboys line of the 90's and put them in the ZBS and they will struggle. Take the Broncos early 2000s line and put them in the power scheme and they will struggle. Neither are a fit for the other scheme but were absolutely top of the league in the system they played.
Accept that a player is different in either scheme. Accept that a player is a different player, in any scheme, at any position.

The NFL, and almost every franchise operates scouting at their very foundation with what is called "system fits" in personnel. You don't understand that? Come on..


Every facet of the things I mentioned is not "getting sidetracked in the details' as you put it. Knapp, and all of those facets are the parts that make up the big picture. The simple point that you talk about the big picture then refer to only one thing over and over - Knapp - is absurd by sheer definition. You cannot create a big picture and have it consist of only one facet.


This is why you are being an impossible pain - "You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful". I devoted the majority of a paragraph in my last post to openly accepting Knapp's failure to run up the middle early and often. Did you even bother to read my post? Seriously, tell me if you read my post..

I apologize for the mistake of even replying to your post. I should have known by now.


"You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful". As in, you admitted to agreeing with my point about the poor play calling, so you can't expect a different end result. Obviously, I read your post. Hopefully that clears things up for you a bit.

Anyways, I know players fit schemes differently. I think the Raiders talent along the line is a very good fit for the ZBS. Most offenses don't start with this kind of talent when making scheme changes. The production just doesn't meet the talent. Let's just agree to disagree.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


I agree. Knapp needs to call more inside runs. But a good rushing attack starts with blocking and execution. McFadden might be quickest rb to the edge in football, but its failing?? Execution and blocking.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


I agree. Knapp needs to call more inside runs. But a good rushing attack starts with blocking and execution. McFadden might be quickest rb to the edge in football, but its failing?? Execution and blocking.


One problem with that fit - on stretch runs there is no edge. If the play calls are devoted to stretching the defense one of two things has to happen. 1. McFadden needs to cut back to the opposite edge or to the middle of the field, 2. Knapp has to stop killing the edge with stretch runs because it takes away McFadden's advantage, in getting to the edge first.

Either Knapp has to realize that moving the defense sideways is actually helping them catch McFadden, or McFadden has to realize he doesn't have to blast through the first hole he sees right away.
It took Fargas 6 years to learn this but once he did he improved greatly. Wait for the hole, or find it elsewhere. Skinny guys don't make holes by piling into them.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15106
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Umm why is everybody just not responding to what big p said. Tightends is a big part of this system. We don't have one who can block worth a darn. Meyers not sealing edges is a huge problem in our run game


But I thought it took years for the ZBS to work. What difference is a TE going to make...


Are you serious? The TE is big key to the success of the zone run scheme as well being a serious pass catcher in the offense.

Watch Casey and Daniel in Houston. See the blocking impact they have as well as the ability to find space off play action offense and contribute in the passing game.


You guys are passing blame onto a new area of the offense every week it seems. The blocking at TE isn't to blame for Knapp not trying to establish the inside run game. It becomes so much easier for defenses to defend the run when they know you're calling everything outside. Having a good rushing attack all starts with play-calling.


A simplistic and repetitive view.
You're right about the part regarding inside running, 100%. We have not even attempted to establish the inside run. Way too much stretch and too soon in games. And that is all on Knapp and whoever he coordinates the game plan with - which means it's on Allen as well.

But once again, it's not nearly the only factor here bro. I know you hate Knapp with passion, but try to expand on that a bit and accept it's more than just him. Our blockers genuinely are either inexperienced or generally suck. And our runner is still in need of learning to be patient and wait for holes. He's never been that type, but if his newfound ability to avoid unnecessary contact is a beacon to anything, hopefully it means there's hope he will continue to learn and progress in other ways.


The reason you think I hate Knapp is because I don't get sidetracked on the smaller details along the way, while missing the bigger picture. The Raiders line was good enough to block for the best rushing attack in the league before McFadden went down last season, but now their talent level in the ZBS is the worst in the NFL? I just don't see it that way. You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful.


Saying it's exactly the same line is not really true.
Wiz was at LG, now he's at C.
Carlisle was at RG, now he's at LG first in his career.
RT Barnes is out, Smith is in and a new addition.
Satele gone.
40% of the line not here, 40% changed positions. 1 player out of 5 is the same guy playing the same position, but in a new scheme. 0 players out of 5 playing same position or scheme from last year.

So first, the line is not the same. Not entirely different, but not the same. You can blame the staff for shifting guys around and causing the setback, partially.

Another note is that talent in one scheme is not talent in another. Take the Cowboys line of the 90's and put them in the ZBS and they will struggle. Take the Broncos early 2000s line and put them in the power scheme and they will struggle. Neither are a fit for the other scheme but were absolutely top of the league in the system they played.
Accept that a player is different in either scheme. Accept that a player is a different player, in any scheme, at any position.

The NFL, and almost every franchise operates scouting at their very foundation with what is called "system fits" in personnel. You don't understand that? Come on..


Every facet of the things I mentioned is not "getting sidetracked in the details' as you put it. Knapp, and all of those facets are the parts that make up the big picture. The simple point that you talk about the big picture then refer to only one thing over and over - Knapp - is absurd by sheer definition. You cannot create a big picture and have it consist of only one facet.


This is why you are being an impossible pain - "You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful". I devoted the majority of a paragraph in my last post to openly accepting Knapp's failure to run up the middle early and often. Did you even bother to read my post? Seriously, tell me if you read my post..

I apologize for the mistake of even replying to your post. I should have known by now.


"You can't admit that Knapp is doing a bad job calling plays, and still expect to be successful". As in, you admitted to agreeing with my point about the poor play calling, so you can't expect a different end result. Obviously, I read your post. Hopefully that clears things up for you a bit.

Anyways, I know players fit schemes differently. I think the Raiders talent along the line is a very good fit for the ZBS. Most offenses don't start with this kind of talent when making scheme changes. The production just doesn't meet the talent. Let's just agree to disagree.


i dont really think we are a fancy zbs running team. imo our oline is built to man up the guy ahead of you and let dmac find a hole and hit it hard. all this sideways blocking zbs isnt working. once our o-line gets sideways the defenders are owning them. i also think dmac is more of the between the tackles rb than a edge guy. most of his big runs start between the tackles not going around the edge.
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