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DaBoys


Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3270
Location: J.J. Wilcox fan club headquarters
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But our defense isn't our problem.... Making the best unit better doesn't help the team as much as making the worst unit better does. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Not the other way around.

Think of it this way:

It's like taking the Houston Texans and saying their best asset is their stadium, and their worst asset is their uniforms. Now they have an opportunity to change into the Cowboys uniform or the Cowboys stadium. Yes the Cowboys stadium is amazing and better than the Texans current stadium, but the Texans uniforms are far more of a problem then their stadium. So the smart thing to do is keep the stadium that they have and change uniforms.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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be WARE94


Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2371
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
But our defense isn't our problem.... Making the best unit better doesn't help the team as much as making the worst unit better does. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Not the other way around.

Think of it this way:

It's like taking the Houston Texans and saying their best asset is their stadium, and their worst asset is their uniforms. Now they have an opportunity to change into the Cowboys uniform or the Cowboys stadium. Yes the Cowboys stadium is amazing and better than the Texans current stadium, but the Texans uniforms are far more of a problem then their stadium. So the smart thing to do is keep the stadium that they have and change uniforms.


i kinda understand what you are saying....but at the same time.....i'm just not buying it.....watt is exactly what this team needs right now.....and could of used last year.....imagine having 2 DPOY level players in Watt and Ware.....imagine how much better watt would make ratliff and spencer....and by better i obviously mean taking attention away from them...i can talk about how much watt would make this defense/team better all day....and there is not point obviously seeing as we wound up with tyron instead(and again i DO like tyron A LOT) but i think it's missing out on players like watt( a guy who's high motor/intensity is EXACTLY what this team needs) is exactly why the cowboys have been a step behind the elite teams for quite some time now
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SetonHallCowboy


Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 15
Location: South Orange, NJ
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
But our defense isn't our problem.... Making the best unit better doesn't help the team as much as making the worst unit better does. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Not the other way around.

Think of it this way:

It's like taking the Houston Texans and saying their best asset is their stadium, and their worst asset is their uniforms. Now they have an opportunity to change into the Cowboys uniform or the Cowboys stadium. Yes the Cowboys stadium is amazing and better than the Texans current stadium, but the Texans uniforms are far more of a problem then their stadium. So the smart thing to do is keep the stadium that they have and change uniforms.


Was this a joke? Only as strong as your weakest link?

Why do you think the Giants continue to draft defensive lineman in the early rounds? Why do you think the Packers continue to draft wide receivers in the early rounds? This game is about finding mismatches, and mismatches are created when you have multiple players on the field who can cause headaches for opposing coordinators. Do you know which 2 teams won the Superbowl the last 2 years?

The Giants had too many productive players on the defensive line, and they proved to be too much for even the Patriots. Did you see the Jets triple team Watt tonight? It allowed Brooks Reed to go 1-1 on against a weak tackle, Jason Smith, allowing for a sack and forced fumble.

The Packers won the Superbowl because they had 5 receivers that teams simply couldn't match up against. You couldn't double Greg Jennings even when you knew they were passing because Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver and James Jones were all threats. So what did they do after they won the Superbowl? They drafted Randall Cobb.

The Patriots drafted Aaron Hernandez in the same draft as Gronkowski because they knew that if they went into a 2 TE set, it would create a mismatch for opposing linebackers and safeties.

Teams are looking to create mismatches in anyway they can. We've seen it with defensive lines, wide receivers and tight ends. The Cowboys went all in on cornerback this offseason to counter the mismatches of wide receiver sets such as Giants, Packers, Saints and Falcons. Has it worked thus far? Somewhat, teams aren't throwing the ball all over us as much as they used to, but let's not pretend that we have the top defense in the league, regardless of what the yards per game stats may indicate. This defense still can't seem to create turnovers, because of the lack of pressure we put on opposing QB's.

FYI, when we drafted Smith, our defense WAS the bigger problem of the two, which contradicts your entire argument. Also, next time, please use facts with actual teams and players instead of trying to compare stadiums and uniforms.

Once again, I am not saying that it was a mistake to draft Tyron Smith instead of Watt because we had a chance to draft the #1 Left Tackle prospect on our board at pick #9. We may not be in position to draft a tackle that high for the next 10 years, and I understand how important it is to protect your franchise QB. But one thing is certain. If we HAD drafted Watt, it would have helped our team, specifically our defense, form what we have been lacking for almost 2 decades. Something that the Giants, Packers, Saints, Ravens, Patriots, Steelers and now Texans have.....an IDENTITY.

Look, we all have a guy in Smith who we all have high hopes for, myself included. This is only his first year at Left Tackle and he will only get better. Hindsight is 20/20, but I still own the right to wonder what could have been when I watch the one man wrecking crew singlehandedly change the course of a game. We're looking at this year's DPOY if he keeps it up, not Demarcus Ware.
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flyingmonkey30


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Watt is a little overrated but is a fantastic talent on his way to being elite.


Maddhatter, please explain why you believe Watt is a little overrated. I understand that you posted this a few weeks ago and your opinion might have changed from then to now, and rightfully so.

The fact that he can singlehandedly take over a game would make you think he is in fact underrated. Name me another 3-4 defensive end who can do everything he does at an elite level. He is excellent at stopping the run, deflects multiple passes a game that translate to turnovers, and he leads the NFL in sacks with 8.5.

I am not going to say that we should have drafted Watt over Smith because that would be unfair, given what we know now about Watt. But comparing Watt to Smith, right now, it's not even close. Smith is 22 with a lot of room to grow, I get that. He's playing on a horrible offensive line with no stability that limits his short term opportunity to improve. J.J Watt though, is in a league of his own. I truly feel that no matter how high Tyron's ceiling may be, it will never compare to the player that Watt has already blossomed into to, in just his 2nd year.

This was an interesting article on if Rob Ryan wanted J.J. Watt. Being a defensive coach, there's no doubt in my mind that he did.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4698882/did-rob-ryan-want-j-j-watt-over-tyron-smith


Well, just to answer the bolded, Haloti Ngata and Justin Smtih are the two best 5 techs in the NFL. Nobody is playing on Ngata's level right now. And he's doing it without one of the best pass rushers in the league this year (Suggs)
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DaBoys


Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3270
Location: J.J. Wilcox fan club headquarters
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Was this a joke? Only as strong as your weakest link?


Was it a joke? hmmmm this must be that Seton Hall education shining through... I'm using humor to prove a point. I guess it is like a joke, yes.


Only as strong as the weakest link? Yes. This is a well known fact, and I am not the first person say it. Have you seen the Cowboys? We have a top flight secondary. A great set of outside linebackers, and a great set of inside linebackers. Hatcher and Brent have done a nice job on the line. We have an elite QB, and an elite WR combo. The best TE in the game. And we all know that our RB can produce big numbers, but despite all that we are 2-2 because of our offensive line, which is our weakest link. Hence us only being as strong as they will allow us to be.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Why do you think the Giants continue to draft defensive lineman in the early rounds? Why do you think the Packers continue to draft wide receivers in the early rounds? This game is about finding mismatches, and mismatches are created when you have multiple players on the field who can cause headaches for opposing coordinators. Do you know which 2 teams won the Superbowl the last 2 years?


Did you know that the Giants were considered to have the best offensive line in the league in 2009 and were rebuilding their defensive line because it was considered the weaker of the two units? I assume that is the year you are referring to, because that is the only year they drafted multiple defensive linemen in recent history. Did you know that in the last four drafts the green bay packers have drafted 33 players and only 1 was a WR? Lets do some research Seton Hall.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
The Giants had too many productive players on the defensive line, and they proved to be too much for even the Patriots. Did you see the Jets triple team Watt tonight? It allowed Brooks Reed to go 1-1 on against a weak tackle, Jason Smith, allowing for a sack and forced fumble.


DWare gets doubled and tripled all the time, which allows others to be left in 1 on 1 situations or even left completely free. Don't act like Brooks Reed has done anything special this year. He has 2.5 sacks. Spencer has 2 sacks and has played 2 less games.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
The Packers won the Superbowl because they had 5 receivers that teams simply couldn't match up against. You couldn't double Greg Jennings even when you knew they were passing because Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver and James Jones were all threats. So what did they do after they won the Superbowl? They drafted Randall Cobb.


Driver isn't getting any younger, and is basically washed up. James Jones Career high is 679 yards and has been the hallmark of inconsistency. Jordy Nelson had a measly 582 yards and 2 TDs the year before Cobb was drafted. And Cobb has a skill set that none of them have. Plus there is this thing called BPA.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
The Patriots drafted Aaron Hernandez in the same draft as Gronkowski because they knew that if they went into a 2 TE set, it would create a mismatch for opposing linebackers and safeties.


You are correct. Good job. Teams need more than one TE, and in most cases more than two.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Teams are looking to create mismatches in anyway they can. We've seen it with defensive lines, wide receivers and tight ends. The Cowboys went all in on cornerback this offseason to counter the mismatches of wide receiver sets such as Giants, Packers, Saints and Falcons. Has it worked thus far? Somewhat, teams aren't throwing the ball all over us as much as they used to, but let's not pretend that we have the top defense in the league, regardless of what the yards per game stats may indicate. This defense still can't seem to create turnovers, because of the lack of pressure we put on opposing QB's.


We have a top 5 defense. This is fact. Forget the stats that do back this up, and use your eyes. And we needed offensive linemen to counter the great defensive lines. Just as we needed corners to counter the great WR sets.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
FYI, when we drafted Smith, our defense WAS the bigger problem of the two, which contradicts your entire argument. Also, next time, please use facts with actual teams and players instead of trying to compare stadiums and uniforms.


I don't think our defensive ends were a bigger problem in 2010 than our offensive tackles. Out of pure positional importance, if nothing else. The Cowboys stadium is amazing, and the Texans uniforms are horrid. These ARE facts. Facts that can't be ignored. But let me know next time you want to comprehend something and I'll try to put it in terms you can understand. After all, I am here for you Seton Hall.


SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Once again, I am not saying that it was a mistake to draft Tyron Smith instead of Watt because we had a chance to draft the #1 Left Tackle prospect on our board at pick #9. We may not be in position to draft a tackle that high for the next 10 years, and I understand how important it is to protect your franchise QB. But one thing is certain. If we HAD drafted Watt, it would have helped our team, specifically our defense, form what we have been lacking for almost 2 decades. Something that the Giants, Packers, Saints, Ravens, Patriots, Steelers and now Texans have.....an IDENTITY.


Soooo, you agree we should have drafted Smith. All this debate to eventually agree with me? Lets agree to agree.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Look, we all have a guy in Smith who we all have high hopes for, myself included. This is only his first year at Left Tackle and he will only get better. Hindsight is 20/20, but I still own the right to wonder what could have been when I watch the one man wrecking crew singlehandedly change the course of a game. We're looking at this year's DPOY if he keeps it up, not Demarcus Ware.


Everyone owns the right to wonder what if. No one has even tried to take that away from you. I don't understand your hostility towards me, just because I said the team made the right decision. An opinion that apparently you agree with? Just be reminded that Smith is still one of the youngest players in the league, and plays arguably the most difficult position in the NFL. A position that doesn't get statistical recognition. A position that can't be successful without cohesion with four other players. A position that is very dependent on team work.

Watt is doing amazing things for a 3-4 defensive end no doubt, but right now we need offensive line help. Even though we drafted Smith we still need offensive line help. The defense is fine. The offense is not; Despite having all the skill in the world. We need 3 possibly 4 more offensive linemen. Watt is not going to score points for us. Watt is not going to keep Romo upright. Our defense is putting us in good position but we can't score because our weakest link is failing us.

It doesn't matter anyway. Things are the way they are. IMO it is a win win. Both players look like they will be great. It's not like we are talking about passing up CJ2k for Felix Jones, or Steven Jackson for Julius Jones. Smith is what we needed. It was a good pick. The end.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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mco65


Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a bit early to have buyers remorse if you ask me.. Demarcus Ware was 3 years into his career and fans were still debating whether the Cowboys made a mistake by not taking Shawn Merriman vs Ware... They no longer have that debate.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's still early, but Watt looks like the DPOY favorite and is in the mix for "best defender in the league" should he keep this over the season. In hindsight, you can't pass on that for anything short of a franchise quarterback.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Watt is a little overrated but is a fantastic talent on his way to being elite.


Maddhatter, please explain why you believe Watt is a little overrated. I understand that you posted this a few weeks ago and your opinion might have changed from then to now, and rightfully so.

The fact that he can singlehandedly take over a game would make you think he is in fact underrated. Name me another 3-4 defensive end who can do everything he does at an elite level. He is excellent at stopping the run, deflects multiple passes a game that translate to turnovers, and he leads the NFL in sacks with 8.5.

I am not going to say that we should have drafted Watt over Smith because that would be unfair, given what we know now about Watt. But comparing Watt to Smith, right now, it's not even close. Smith is 22 with a lot of room to grow, I get that. He's playing on a horrible offensive line with no stability that limits his short term opportunity to improve. J.J Watt though, is in a league of his own. I truly feel that no matter how high Tyron's ceiling may be, it will never compare to the player that Watt has already blossomed into to, in just his 2nd year.

This was an interesting article on if Rob Ryan wanted J.J. Watt. Being a defensive coach, there's no doubt in my mind that he did.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4698882/did-rob-ryan-want-j-j-watt-over-tyron-smith


Over rated as in not the GOAT
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dahobofest


Joined: 20 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't you say this about a lot of players from every draft? They didn't pick him, along with a ton of other players they didn't pick, so who cares?
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Baixis


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, while I haven't been as vocal about the O-line as some on here, I do have to say that we 100% made the right choice. A quality LT is the 2nd most important position on the field, PERIOD. I'm am much more of a defensive guy than an offensive guy, but I would never take a stud defender - even the DPOY! - over a borderline (or better) Pro Bowl LT. And ANYONE that would, I'm sorry to say, just does NOT understand the game of football very well. The franchise QB is the biggest part of any team, and his backside protector is EASILY the next biggest factor!
If we didn't have Smith right now, Free would be our LT, some no-name would be our RT, and Orton would be our QB (or McGee!). And the notion of taking Watt last year AND DeCastro this year is one of the silliest things I've ever heard!!! While LT is the 2nd most important position, OG isn't even top 5, but CB is right there with pass-rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB) as the 3rd/4th most important position. So getting Smith last year and Claiborne this year will benefit us in the greatest possible way for 10 years to come.
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SetonHallCowboy


Joined: 29 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daboys- My intention was not to attack you, I apologize if I came off strong. Taking personal jabs against my University will get you nowhere. This is an argument about the Cowboys, let's try to keep it there.

One thing that you wrote really caught my eye. "Watt is not going to score points for us." That couldn't be further from the truth. One thing that has hindered our team over the last few years is the inability to score points from any where other than the passing game. Sacks, forced fumbles, and pass deflections that cause interceptions directly lead to points.

I am aware that Cobb was the only Packer's WR drafted in the last few years, but there is a reason for that, the damage was already done. In 2006 they drafted Jennings, in 2007 they drafted James Jones, and in 2008 they drafted Jordy Nelson. All 3 WR's were high draft picks, and all 3 are still at the top of the depth chart. Teams only carry 5-6 WR's on their roster, so there is no room for another at the moment. If Jennings leaves GB for a bigger paycheck after the season, they will draft another receiver.

The Giants have been drafting defensive lineman in the top rounds for the last decade now. These guys are one of the main reason's why Eli has 2 Superbowl MVP's.

William Joseph 2003 (1st round)
Osi Umenyiora 2003 (2nd round)
Justin Tuck 2005 (3rd round)
Mathias Kiwanuka 2006 (1st round)
Barry Cofield 2006 (4th round)
Jay Alford 2007 (3rd round)
Marvin Austin 2010 (2nd round)
Jason Pierre Paul 2011 (1st round)
Linval Joseph- 2011 (2nd round)

They also signed Chris Canty in free agency after already investing so much into their defensive line.

The point about the teams needing more than 1 TE relating to the Patriots misses the point. The Pats don't use their 2 TE sets like any other team in the league. Their skill sets allow them to create a unique mismatch that no other team in the NFL has replicated.

Your point about Demarcus Ware is true, but it didn't pertain to my argument. My point was that if we had a player like J.J Watt then teams couldn't triple team Ware like they do. You use the point that Spencer feeds off Ware better than Reed does off of Watt, and I agree. But if we had Watt, I feel like would be even more disruptive than he already is, because of Ware.

Lastly, my post was never about the fact that we should have drafted Watt over Smith. This isn't about me agreeing or disagreeing with you that we should have drafted Smith. I am in disagreement about your views of WHY we drafted Smith, because your argument listed that we needed offensive help more than defensive help. Our defensive and offensive ranking this year have nothing to do with how they ranked before we drafted Smith.
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dahobofest


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, what's the point of taking him instead of an o-line when the o-line is already terrible. Do you want to try beating opponents 3-0 every game?
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atran35


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watt is a great player. However, no regrets in taking Tyson. Here's a question. Can we NOW move Ratliff to DE with the sole responsibility to kill the QB? Brent and Lissemore seems to be holding their end at NT. Hatcher is ok. Having Ratliff move around next to Ware or Spencer at all time could add to the pass rush.
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SetonHallCowboy


Joined: 29 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atran35 wrote:
Watt is a great player. However, no regrets in taking Tyson. Here's a question. Can we NOW move Ratliff to DE with the sole responsibility to kill the QB? Brent and Lissemore seems to be holding their end at NT. Hatcher is ok. Having Ratliff move around next to Ware or Spencer at all time could add to the pass rush.


I hope Rob plays him all over the line. Even though Ratliff is declining, he is still a player that opposing teams need to prepare for. Glad that he's finally back.
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DaBoys


Joined: 18 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Daboys- My intention was not to attack you, I apologize if I came off strong. Taking personal jabs against my University will get you nowhere. This is an argument about the Cowboys, let's try to keep it there.



Think






SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Your point about Demarcus Ware is true, but it didn't pertain to my argument. My point was that if we had a player like J.J Watt then teams couldn't triple team Ware like they do. You use the point that Spencer feeds off Ware better than Reed does off of Watt, and I agree. But if we had Watt, I feel like would be even more disruptive than he already is, because of Ware.


This I agree with, and is a big reason why I wanted Fletcher Cox this year in the draft.

SetonHallCowboy wrote:
Lastly, my post was never about the fact that we should have drafted Watt over Smith. This isn't about me agreeing or disagreeing with you that we should have drafted Smith. I am in disagreement about your views of WHY we drafted Smith, because your argument listed that we needed offensive help more than defensive help. Our defensive and offensive ranking this year have nothing to do with how they ranked before we drafted Smith.


Well Seton Hall... ...I never gave my reasons for WHY we drafted Smith. I gave a reason through a metaphor(which seemed to anger you) of why it was a good pick. Two different things. You can't hardly disagree with my reasons for why I think we drafted Smith, when you do not know what they are. I also never said anything about what our defensive ranking or offensive rankings were at the time. I simply said that 'right now' we have a top ranking defense and poor ranking offense. A poor ranking offense that is due to a poor offensive line. A poor offensive line with the exception of Smith. Then, I said taking the best thing away from the worst unit on the field to add more talent to the best unit would be counter productive, because you are only as strong as your weakest link. I still stand by that.
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Matts4313 wrote:
I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane.

The_Slamman wrote:
Daboys is right.

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BTW, DaBoys wins this thread.
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