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Josh Cribbs
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NickZambo


Joined: 03 Mar 2009
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Location: Pittsburgh Browns Backin'
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
NickZambo wrote:
Ether wrote:
NickZambo wrote:



I'll be honest, I went to Kent with Josh, he is a great guy. A great story, UDFA earned his way into the team, earned a new contract and he has been nothing but tough and gives his all. The NFL is a business and I hate to say it but I wouldn't offer him too much money when it comes to his next contract, matter of fact I would trade him if we aren't planning on resigning him and I will tell you why:

1. Is he a WR? No, he hasnt committed to becoming a quality starting NFL WR. Yes he "makes plays" on occasion but he isn't high on our WR depth chart for a reason. He has made 4 receptions for 39 yards in 5 games. Tell me who you would bench in favor of Cribbs out of: MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benji, Norwood.

2. The rule changes in the NFL have devalued the return man.

3. Furthermore, is his value on punt/kick returns worth more than Travis Benjamin? I would rather have the speed of Benjamin out there.

4. Right now, he is 29, he will be 30 before the beginning of next year. His return value will only deminish going forward.

Like I said, I love Josh and what he stands for. But it's one of those we-are-listening-to-our-hearts-over-our-head arguments at least for me.



3. Holy overreaction, and I don't mean just by you, but by pretty much everybody.

Josh Cribbs is 3rd in the NFL in kick return average, and the 2 guys ahead of him have half as many returns (9 instead of Cribb's 1Cool. He's 6th in the league in punt return average. There's nobody in the league that's coming anywhere close to matching his output on both kicks and punts, except maybe McKelvin on Buffalo although he's only had 6 kick returns and 7 punt returns.

For a second please stop comparing Cribbs to what he used to be instead of the rest of the returners in the league, he's better than the vast majority of them. I think he might've spoiled us earlier in his career.

If you think Benji has more to offer back there then you have some serious unprecedented faith in Travis Benjamin.



You realize that Josh has led the league in kick return ATTEMPTS and is tied for fifth in punt return ATTEMPTS. His stats should be inflated b/c he is the only one returning kicks and he is returning a lot of them. (thanks defense)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/kickReturns

I am not contesting that he does a great job with his opportunities (other than the 2 lost fumbles) but he should do well with all the opportunities he has had...

IMO, you look at guys like Randall Cobb in GB, a mid round speedy guy who returns kicks and works his way into becoming a major cog in the offense. Josh has been a return guy since 2005 and has neither worked his way into the starting lineup as a WR nor become a major cog in the offense.

At this point in his career, you will see his numbers start to decline. He isnt built for speed like McKelvin, Pat Pete or Hester, he is a bigger guy that is showing he cant stand up to the hits he subjects himself to anymore.

I am simply saying, right now he could perhaps return you a 4th or 5th rounder and then you could put Hardesty back there returning kicks b/c God knows Montario isn't doing anything but wasting roster space. But don't be surprised if he doesnt come back to CLE next season when we offer him significantly less money than did before he held out.


Cobb was a 2nd round pick. The Pack was lucky to get someone with speed and talent where they did, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that guys like him are available later in the draft.

There is no chance of even getting a 6th round pick for Cribbs, so please stop pretending he has trade value. A 4th? You must be joking.


Let me ask you a serious question. Do you feel like Travis Benjamin did a good job returning kicks when he was given the opportunity in the preseason?
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but given his 170 (being generous) pound frame, he wouldn't last half a season returning kicks unless he took every one of them out of bounds.

We didn't spend a 4th round pick on him so he could be a part-time returner.

If you make him a full-time kick returner, you are basically saying "I can live with him being injured for half a season".
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LETSGOBROWNIES


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Yes, but given his 170 (being generous) pound frame, he wouldn't last half a season returning kicks unless he took every one of them out of bounds.

We didn't spend a 4th round pick on him so he could be a part-time returner.

If you make him a full-time kick returner, you are basically saying "I can live with him being injured for half a season".


To add to this, Benjamin has proved to be a decent weapon thus far for our offense.

Would adding return duties to his workload affect his ability to contribute to the offense in a similar manner that adding WR duties to Cribbs workload affected his ST duties (ie not covering kicks).

At this point Cribbs is still a very solid KR/PR and one of the best cover guys in the league. I'm ok with him being that and would love to retain him to continue doing that.

He's a better special teamer than Ventrone and can provide more to the offense than Ventrone can to the defense. If your looking for a one dimensional guy to get rid of.....
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NickZambo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
Yes, but given his 170 (being generous) pound frame, he wouldn't last half a season returning kicks unless he took every one of them out of bounds.

We didn't spend a 4th round pick on him so he could be a part-time returner.

If you make him a full-time kick returner, you are basically saying "I can live with him being injured for half a season".


To add to this, Benjamin has proved to be a decent weapon thus far for our offense.

Would adding return duties to his workload affect his ability to contribute to the offense in a similar manner that adding WR duties to Cribbs workload affected his ST duties (ie not covering kicks).

At this point Cribbs is still a very solid KR/PR and one of the best cover guys in the league. I'm ok with him being that and would love to retain him to continue doing that.

He's a better special teamer than Ventrone and can provide more to the offense than Ventrone can to the defense. If your looking for a one dimensional guy to get rid of.....


I agree with everything you say about Benjamin. As a rookie, he is growing into the offense a lot more than Cribbs has done in his 7 year career. And his frame at 170 lbs makes it less likely that he can withstand a significant role on offense and special teams.

I will also repeat that I like Cribbs and think his leadership is invaluable to this club. But are you going to sign a 30year old return man/gunner to a 3 or 4 year contract at 1-2 mill/year when you could draft a guy (like Benjamin) in the 4th round of next years draft to do what Cribbs does?

I'm just saying a guy like Cribbs, while productive, is replaceable by a mid to late round rookie who would jump at the chance to make a NFL team as a return guy for a contract 1/3 the size of something Cribbs might want.

Now if Cribbs takes much less money and remains healthy & productive, resign him. But it would be a luxury move that we couldn't afford to sign Cribbs to big money next year at his age/position which begs the question, is he worth more to the Browns as a tradeable asset than a guy we keep around and lowball or let loose in 2013. All I am saying....
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NickZambo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Yes, but given his 170 (being generous) pound frame, he wouldn't last half a season returning kicks unless he took every one of them out of bounds.

We didn't spend a 4th round pick on him so he could be a part-time returner.

If you make him a full-time kick returner, you are basically saying "I can live with him being injured for half a season".


Just playing devils advocate, not trying to be argumentative. So right now you have a going on 30 year old 'stud' return-man/gunner in Cribbs that has proven he cannot contribute to the offense as well as rookie Travis Benjamin has thus far. So technically, Cribbs is sitting 'stagnant' in his special teams position and thus there isnt room for other young talent to make the team and potential grow into larger roles a la Benjamin, Cobb, Edelman, Tate, Hunter etc. and you are good with that?
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Ether


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickZambo wrote:


You realize that Josh has led the league in kick return ATTEMPTS and is tied for fifth in punt return ATTEMPTS. His stats should be inflated b/c he is the only one returning kicks and he is returning a lot of them. (thanks defense)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/kickReturns

I am not contesting that he does a great job with his opportunities (other than the 2 lost fumbles) but he should do well with all the opportunities he has had...

IMO, you look at guys like Randall Cobb in GB, a mid round speedy guy who returns kicks and works his way into becoming a major cog in the offense. Josh has been a return guy since 2005 and has neither worked his way into the starting lineup as a WR nor become a major cog in the offense.

At this point in his career, you will see his numbers start to decline. He isnt built for speed like McKelvin, Pat Pete or Hester, he is a bigger guy that is showing he cant stand up to the hits he subjects himself to anymore.

I am simply saying, right now he could perhaps return you a 4th or 5th rounder and then you could put Hardesty back there returning kicks b/c God knows Montario isn't doing anything but wasting roster space. But don't be surprised if he doesnt come back to CLE next season when we offer him significantly less money than did before he held out.


You do realize that return average isn't a stat that inflates with more attempts right? If anything it makes a high return average MORE impressive.
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Ether


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickZambo wrote:
Ether wrote:
Actually I take that back about Cribb's being 3rd WR at worst, and that's only because of the fact he's playing so much special teams I wouldn't want to wear him out. If he was gassed up and ready to go however, I wouldn't even think twice about having him in there over Gordon and Benjamin if available.

He got all [inappropriate/removed] about playing offense last season though, so this might be partially self inflicted on his part. But I truly believe that he'd be more efficient than our rookies at this particular time.


He isn't good enough to be out there as a starting WR or else he would be out there instead of MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benjamin, Norwood or anyone else we have on this "WR starved team". IMO, if he wanted to be a WR, he should have committed to it and shown progress over the past 5-7 years, except he hasn't. And if he has tried, he hasn't proven to anyone that he is good enough to be a WR. Hence him saying he is content to just being a return man.


Just because Shurmur doesn't play him on offense doesn't make him worse. For some reason Eric Hagg was a fairly uncontested starter this season (even a heavy favorite before Young got hurt). We still play Owen Marecic. Also the fact he plays like 4 phases of special teams right now.

I mean if my job was safe, I'd definitely rarely put him in on offense. However if I performed terribly my first year, my team just got a new owner, and the guy who hired me is most likely not going to be around next season? Yeah I think I'd probably put him in there against his will again.

Also Cribbs hasn't shown any improvement at WR? Look at his year by year stats and rethink your definition of "improvement"
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NickZambo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
NickZambo wrote:
Ether wrote:
Actually I take that back about Cribb's being 3rd WR at worst, and that's only because of the fact he's playing so much special teams I wouldn't want to wear him out. If he was gassed up and ready to go however, I wouldn't even think twice about having him in there over Gordon and Benjamin if available.

He got all [inappropriate/removed] about playing offense last season though, so this might be partially self inflicted on his part. But I truly believe that he'd be more efficient than our rookies at this particular time.


He isn't good enough to be out there as a starting WR or else he would be out there instead of MoMass, Little, Gordon, Benjamin, Norwood or anyone else we have on this "WR starved team". IMO, if he wanted to be a WR, he should have committed to it and shown progress over the past 5-7 years, except he hasn't. And if he has tried, he hasn't proven to anyone that he is good enough to be a WR. Hence him saying he is content to just being a return man.


Just because Shurmur doesn't play him on offense doesn't make him worse. For some reason Eric Hagg was a fairly uncontested starter this season (even a heavy favorite before Young got hurt). We still play Owen Marecic. Also the fact he plays like 4 phases of special teams right now.

I mean if my job was safe, I'd definitely rarely put him in on offense. However if I performed terribly my first year, my team just got a new owner, and the guy who hired me is most likely not going to be around next season? Yeah I think I'd probably put him in there against his will again.

Also Cribbs hasn't shown any improvement at WR? Look at his year by year stats and rethink your definition of "improvement"


Dude, he is going on 30 years old and his role is relegated to kick returns. I am thinking big picture here, is he worth the money going forward as a kick returner/gunner only? He obviously doesn't have the ability nor has he played played much at WR in the 7 years as a Cleveland Brown with the 3 coach staffs who have managed him. So I guess I'm sorry if I don't think he has much of a future important role in our offense going forward regardless of your idea of his yearly statistical "improvement".
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Ether


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickZambo wrote:

Dude, he is going on 30 years old and his role is relegated to kick returns. I am thinking big picture here, is he worth the money going forward as a kick returner/gunner only? He obviously doesn't have the ability nor has he played played much at WR in the 7 years as a Cleveland Brown with the 3 coach staffs who have managed him. So I guess I'm sorry if I don't think he has much of a future important role in our offense going forward regardless of your idea of his yearly statistical "improvement".


I'm not advocating we pay him a fat contract and line him up at starting WR next year. I'd like to see us keep him because he's a team leader, a fan favorite, and still offers above-average to elite production on special teams. I disagree that there isn't a place for him on this team, he can definitely still ball.

I don't understand what the infatuation with Benjamin is right now either, he's had a nice kick return and has caught a whopping 5 passes this year. Yeah I like his speed and potential but he's pretty far from a difference maker at this point.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the argument for getting rid of Cribbs is so we can bring in more talent? If there was talent to be had we'd be all over it already, we have many open (not literally) roster spots.

I think we've discussed all we need to.

Someone start a thread about Hardesty
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Browns_fan61


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see Josh Cribbs being traded to the Patriots. I think I remember Bill saying he was impressed with Cribbs, and if you ask me I think he deserves a shot at winning a ring.
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BrownsDynasty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
No one since we came back has played with more heart or passion than Josh Cribbs.

I would resign him for between 1.5 and 2 mil a year. He loves being a Brown and that will rub off on younger players.

I want this turned around while Josh and Phil are still here.

The way I see it we have two seasons to get these guys to the post season where they deserve to be.


isn't Phil virtually guaranteed to leave after this year? Don't think he's a big fan of the franchise tag and he's tried to leave in the past.
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ditchdigger


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Browns_fan61 wrote:
I can see Josh Cribbs being traded to the Patriots. I think I remember Bill saying he was impressed with Cribbs, and if you ask me I think he deserves a shot at winning a ring.


Really.

You can see, before next week's game, Bill Belichick trade away a draft pick for a 29 year-old returner with 11 weeks left on his contract?

Lenscrafters is running a special right now. Might be time for a new perscription.
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NateDawg


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Really.

You can see, before next week's game, Bill Belichick trade away a draft pick for a 29 year-old returner with 11 weeks left on his contract?


And let's not forget that a week and a half ago, Cribbs was also laying on the field with another concussion. There's not a trade market for the guy, period.
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