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YoungBucs15


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Retrospect on Gruden Reply with quote

We are having a debate over in the Bucs forum regarding Gruden and I was looking at his ability to build a great team and haven't really seen any evidence of it.

He had 3 great picks while on the Raiders in Seabass, Lechler and Woodson. I also understand that Al probably had a lot of influence on the picks but Gruden was unable to really draft any talent once in Tampa.

So looking back at him, i know Gruden almost had you guys in back to back Super Bowls, but do you think he had anything to do with the collapse following the Super Bowl as well.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Retrospect on Gruden Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
We are having a debate over in the Bucs forum regarding Gruden and I was looking at his ability to build a great team and haven't really seen any evidence of it.

He had 3 great picks while on the Raiders in Seabass, Lechler and Woodson. I also understand that Al probably had a lot of influence on the picks but Gruden was unable to really draft any talent once in Tampa.

So looking back at him, i know Gruden almost had you guys in back to back Super Bowls, but do you think he had anything to do with the collapse following the Super Bowl as well.

I do. He wanted old vets.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


A ton of credit. He was able to run his WCO over Davis's preferred vertical attack.

As for the draft. That falls more on Davis. I doubt any HC says let's take a kicker w/ the 17th overall pick as good a kicker as he's been over the years, it's just not practical.

Davis also trumped Gruden who wanted Todd Heap for Gibson.

I think Gruden did well where he could in adding vets and hitting an absolute home run with Gannon. But in the end, it was the poor drafting that killed the team moving forward. But Davis had a large hand in that.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


A ton of credit. He was able to run his WCO over Davis's preferred vertical attack.

As for the draft. That falls more on Davis. I doubt any HC says let's take a kicker w/ the 17th overall pick as good a kicker as he's been over the years, it's just not practical.

Davis also trumped Gruden who wanted Todd Heap for Gibson.

I think Gruden did well where he could in adding vets and hitting an absolute home run with Gannon. But in the end, it was the poor drafting that killed the team moving forward. But Davis had a large hand in that.


+1

And I think the evidence is that once Gruden was traded, we got 2 1st round and 2 2nd round picks and missed on all of them aside from Asomugha. We were the oldest team in the NFL that year, and it hurt the next season when a bunch of those guys retired, got hurt, or just declined because we had nobody to replace them. 8 of our starters were over 30, and 5 were 36+. That was on Al for trying to "win now" without regard for the future of his team.

How much drafting power did he have in TB? Looking at his drafts there were only like 3 players out of all his top-3 picks each year that ended up good.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


A ton of credit. He was able to run his WCO over Davis's preferred vertical attack.

As for the draft. That falls more on Davis. I doubt any HC says let's take a kicker w/ the 17th overall pick as good a kicker as he's been over the years, it's just not practical.

Davis also trumped Gruden who wanted Todd Heap for Gibson.

I think Gruden did well where he could in adding vets and hitting an absolute home run with Gannon. But in the end, it was the poor drafting that killed the team moving forward. But Davis had a large hand in that.


+1

And I think the evidence is that once Gruden was traded, we got 2 1st round and 2 2nd round picks and missed on all of them aside from Asomugha. We were the oldest team in the NFL that year, and it hurt the next season when a bunch of those guys retired, got hurt, or just declined because we had nobody to replace them. 8 of our starters were over 30, and 5 were 36+. That was on Al for trying to "win now" without regard for the future of his team.

How much drafting power did he have in TB? Looking at his drafts there were only like 3 players out of all his top-3 picks each year that ended up good.


As far as I know he had quite a bit of power on the draft here. That's what lead me to look at your drafts during his tenure as well. His only good picks would be Davin Joseph, Cadillac Williams(not his fault he got hurt.) and Aqib Talib. Other than that they were all busts or no longer on the team.

He did the same thing here as well though by bringing in players like Garcia, Tim Brown and Garner among others. Than anytime we needed to upgrade or fill a position he went and either signed an over the hill vet or missed on the draft picks. Once Sapp, Lynch and Rice were gone it was just all downhill and are still trying to turn it around.

I just never could figure out that if Gruden is should a great QB coach why he would never draft his guy, he would only deal with aging vet's. Highest he every drafted one of the top my head is the 3rd round in Chris Simms.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


A ton of credit. He was able to run his WCO over Davis's preferred vertical attack.

As for the draft. That falls more on Davis. I doubt any HC says let's take a kicker w/ the 17th overall pick as good a kicker as he's been over the years, it's just not practical.

Davis also trumped Gruden who wanted Todd Heap for Gibson.

I think Gruden did well where he could in adding vets and hitting an absolute home run with Gannon. But in the end, it was the poor drafting that killed the team moving forward. But Davis had a large hand in that.


+1

And I think the evidence is that once Gruden was traded, we got 2 1st round and 2 2nd round picks and missed on all of them aside from Asomugha. We were the oldest team in the NFL that year, and it hurt the next season when a bunch of those guys retired, got hurt, or just declined because we had nobody to replace them. 8 of our starters were over 30, and 5 were 36+. That was on Al for trying to "win now" without regard for the future of his team.

How much drafting power did he have in TB? Looking at his drafts there were only like 3 players out of all his top-3 picks each year that ended up good.


As far as I know he had quite a bit of power on the draft here. That's what lead me to look at your drafts during his tenure as well. His only good picks would be Davin Joseph, Cadillac Williams(not his fault he got hurt.) and Aqib Talib. Other than that they were all busts or no longer on the team.

He did the same thing here as well though by bringing in players like Garcia, Tim Brown and Garner among others. Than anytime we needed to upgrade or fill a position he went and either signed an over the hill vet or missed on the draft picks. Once Sapp, Lynch and Rice were gone it was just all downhill and are still trying to turn it around.

I just never could figure out that if Gruden is should a great QB coach why he would never draft his guy, he would only deal with aging vet's. Highest he every drafted one of the top my head is the 3rd round in Chris Simms.


He loved Chris Simms, too didnt he? That doesnt make sense to me. He had more power here than any other coach had in a long, long time, but I am certain it was more Al than anything. Still, I'm sure Gruden had his hand in some of our awful picks.
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


The Raiders best player during the early 2000's was Rich Gannon. Rich Gannon owes his success to John Gruden. So it's safe to say he deserves a lot of credit for what the Raiders accomplished.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, Chucky had an East Bay offense that could immediately inject potency and efficiency. However, it also seemed that his offensive philosophy had a short shelf life. Gruden might have had a problem adding & adjusting his playbook once his division rivals were exposed to it. In addition he was never able to develop QBs and he tended to ride rookies hard. There were rumors he wasn't well liked until he went into media.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


The Raiders best player during the early 2000's was Rich Gannon. Rich Gannon owes his success to John Gruden. So it's safe to say he deserves a lot of credit for what the Raiders accomplished.


Or, you could say Gruden owes his to Gannon? Gannon was dicing it up for KC the season prior to joining Oakland. Led them to the playoffs and then KC went back to Grbac. Laughing
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


The Raiders best player during the early 2000's was Rich Gannon. Rich Gannon owes his success to John Gruden. So it's safe to say he deserves a lot of credit for what the Raiders accomplished.


Or, you could say Gruden owes his to Gannon? Gannon was dicing it up for KC the season prior to joining Oakland. Led them to the playoffs and then KC went back to Grbac. Laughing


You could say that. But the offense John Gruden built around Rich Gannon was about as perfect for him as you could have asked for. I miss those Raiders. Sad
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Darkness wrote:
YoungBucs15 wrote:
Also, how much do you credit Gruden for building that team that went that far in the playoffs?


The Raiders best player during the early 2000's was Rich Gannon. Rich Gannon owes his success to John Gruden. So it's safe to say he deserves a lot of credit for what the Raiders accomplished.


Or, you could say Gruden owes his to Gannon? Gannon was dicing it up for KC the season prior to joining Oakland. Led them to the playoffs and then KC went back to Grbac. Laughing


You could say that. But the offense John Gruden built around Rich Gannon was about as perfect for him as you could have asked for. I miss those Raiders. Sad


I say Gannon can thank Gruden for an offense that played to his strengths, and Gruden can thank Gannon for executing it almost perfectly.
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bitty


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was a coaching genius he never had losing season with the Raiders.
Gruden went 8-8 with no name QBs his first year.
His record with the Raiders was 36-28 a .594 winning percentage.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
In addition he was never able to develop QBs and he tended to ride rookies hard.


I remember hearing the problem was he had zero patience with young players. He was throwing his very complex playbook at them and they'd better grasp hit quickly or they were sent on a long ride on the bench. That's why he seemed to like vets so much.
While he was with the Raiders, Al Davis obviously had a say in every personel move but i'm also pretty sure some of the FAs signings were Gruden's idea (for example, Charlie Garner).
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G


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the HC should be a motivator. The head that the body follows. The glue of the system that makes all the parts work better.
Gruden was an excellent HC for what he brought to Oakland and left for his staff to take to the Super Bowl. He took Dungy's stingy D and complemented it with an Offense. So he was great for the Bucs until the talented D aged or left.
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