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Where I stand with Sanchez and the Jets
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rickyt31


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 7112
Location: HEATlanta , GA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Sparano and receivers are responsible for Sanchez's struggle.

said enough.
Sparano? How?


It is his offense that does not work.
Again, explain.


IMO he is calling the right plays we just don't have the pieces that fit his system. His scheme need the oline to be able to handle their one on one match ups and create wholes. None of our olinemen can create gaps. last year he had Brandon Marshall as a threat defenses had to plan for. There are no threats on our offense. We got a offense full of role players, no elite players.
we didnt have the personnel to run schottenheimer air coryell either...we still ran it. whats your point? We don't really have the personnel to run any form of NFL offense. There's no elite skill players on this team (something I had been calling for since WAY before this past draft was using a first round pick on an elite offensive skill position, namely Michael Floyd.)


I wanted Floyd too.

what I'm saying we don't have nothing for Tony to work with. Its not like Schotty ran it and did a good job. We sucked last year too. Tony is calling some pretty good plays, its the players on the field screwing it up. Last year the players were screwing up , and schotty was predictable.


I agree, but I think QJ was criticizing Sparano's system schematically...which I'd like to see the explanation for. Earlier this year QJ was a big proponent for keeping Schotty around.


Yeah I wanted to see the explanation too. I don't really have a problem with Tony.
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JetFanSince85


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you get skilled players to surround Mark then give him a fair grade.

I'm sorry but he has had WR shuffled in and out his entire career here. Now he has guys coming off the street playing WR.

Now I know he will never be Manning/Brady, but lets be fair he has zero pro bowl calibar players on the offensive side of the ball.
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MikeT14


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outsider looking in, but I have been in a similar situation: Jason Campbell. Skins fans defended him for a long time saying he needed time, he didn't have weapons, injuries were the problem, etc. He even had an unbelievable beginning to his 2008 campaign. But eventually you just need to take a step back, really look at him, and admit to yourself that he isn't going to be Manning and that he isn't going to be a game manager.

Again, just my opinion.
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swi7ch


Joined: 04 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JetFanSince85 wrote:
When you get skilled players to surround Mark then give him a fair grade.

I'm sorry but he has had WR shuffled in and out his entire career here. Now he has guys coming off the street playing WR.

Now I know he will never be Manning/Brady, but lets be fair he has zero pro bowl calibar players on the offensive side of the ball.


Victor Cruz was also an unknown last year. But with Eli, he flourished. Mark just doesn't have the qualities to make great players out of seemingly ordinary players.
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sandwhich


Joined: 25 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swi7ch wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
When you get skilled players to surround Mark then give him a fair grade.

I'm sorry but he has had WR shuffled in and out his entire career here. Now he has guys coming off the street playing WR.

Now I know he will never be Manning/Brady, but lets be fair he has zero pro bowl calibar players on the offensive side of the ball.


Victor Cruz was also an unknown last year. But with Eli, he flourished. Mark just doesn't have the qualities to make great players out of seemingly ordinary players.


Cruz did good because Cruz IS good. Bad analogy even if I understand your point.

The fact is that aside from the Cromartie throw, Sanchez put the guys in position to make plays numerous times and it didn't happen due to tips and lack of playmaking receiving skills.
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quietjetsket


Joined: 20 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeT14 wrote:
Outsider looking in, but I have been in a similar situation: Jason Campbell. Skins fans defended him for a long time saying he needed time, he didn't have weapons, injuries were the problem, etc. He even had an unbelievable beginning to his 2008 campaign. But eventually you just need to take a step back, really look at him, and admit to yourself that he isn't going to be Manning and that he isn't going to be a game manager.

Again, just my opinion.



Sometimes, "just a good quarterback" is unacceptable. Yeah!
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quietjetsket


Joined: 20 Sep 2012
Posts: 3854
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Sparano and receivers are responsible for Sanchez's struggle.

said enough.
Sparano? How?


It is his offense that does not work.
Again, explain.


IMO he is calling the right plays we just don't have the pieces that fit his system. His scheme need the oline to be able to handle their one on one match ups and create wholes. None of our olinemen can create gaps. last year he had Brandon Marshall as a threat defenses had to plan for. There are no threats on our offense. We got a offense full of role players, no elite players.
we didnt have the personnel to run schottenheimer air coryell either...we still ran it. whats your point? We don't really have the personnel to run any form of NFL offense. There's no elite skill players on this team (something I had been calling for since WAY before this past draft was using a first round pick on an elite offensive skill position, namely Michael Floyd.)


I wanted Floyd too.

what I'm saying we don't have nothing for Tony to work with. Its not like Schotty ran it and did a good job. We sucked last year too. Tony is calling some pretty good plays, its the players on the field screwing it up. Last year the players were screwing up , and schotty was predictable.


I agree, but I think QJ was criticizing Sparano's system schematically...which I'd like to see the explanation for. Earlier this year QJ was a big proponent for keeping Schotty around.


Yeah I wanted to see the explanation too. I don't really have a problem with Tony.



Scottenheimer and Sparano have same problem. They do not adjust games. Once given blueprint is out, they expect players to follow.

In any situation, if offense struggles, a team stays with running game to kill times (old fashioned). In Scottenheimer and Sparano situation, if offense struggles, they air it out wild.

Incomplete pass could lead to key INT and stop game clock. Defense got worn out faster. Also, it could save Sanchez' pass percentage.
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JetFanSince85


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swi7ch wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
When you get skilled players to surround Mark then give him a fair grade.

I'm sorry but he has had WR shuffled in and out his entire career here. Now he has guys coming off the street playing WR.

Now I know he will never be Manning/Brady, but lets be fair he has zero pro bowl calibar players on the offensive side of the ball.


Victor Cruz was also an unknown last year. But with Eli, he flourished. Mark just doesn't have the qualities to make great players out of seemingly ordinary players.


Your point would hold water if Cruz was the only viable target on the team.

Nicks, Maningham, and Bradshaw were pretty good options as well.

Bottom line, Rex needs to stop treating the Offensive side of the ball as if its the back seat driver. If he had the 49ers D you would live with it but it's not.

The offensive side of the ball needs to be addressed with a RB who can be a game breaker. We should of traded for MJD. I dont care what you people say everyone has a price and I'm sure the Jaguars would have taken a 2 and Teabag.
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Colt45fool


Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 5719
Location: New Haven, CT
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quietjetsket wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Sparano and receivers are responsible for Sanchez's struggle.

said enough.
Sparano? How?


It is his offense that does not work.
Again, explain.


IMO he is calling the right plays we just don't have the pieces that fit his system. His scheme need the oline to be able to handle their one on one match ups and create wholes. None of our olinemen can create gaps. last year he had Brandon Marshall as a threat defenses had to plan for. There are no threats on our offense. We got a offense full of role players, no elite players.
we didnt have the personnel to run schottenheimer air coryell either...we still ran it. whats your point? We don't really have the personnel to run any form of NFL offense. There's no elite skill players on this team (something I had been calling for since WAY before this past draft was using a first round pick on an elite offensive skill position, namely Michael Floyd.)


I wanted Floyd too.

what I'm saying we don't have nothing for Tony to work with. Its not like Schotty ran it and did a good job. We sucked last year too. Tony is calling some pretty good plays, its the players on the field screwing it up. Last year the players were screwing up , and schotty was predictable.


I agree, but I think QJ was criticizing Sparano's system schematically...which I'd like to see the explanation for. Earlier this year QJ was a big proponent for keeping Schotty around.


Yeah I wanted to see the explanation too. I don't really have a problem with Tony.



Scottenheimer and Sparano have same problem. They do not adjust games. Once given blueprint is out, they expect players to follow.

In any situation, if offense struggles, a team stays with running game to kill times (old fashioned). In Scottenheimer and Sparano situation, if offense struggles, they air it out wild.

Incomplete pass could lead to key INT and stop game clock. Defense got worn out faster. Also, it could save Sanchez' pass percentage.


I see what you're saying, but I don't think we pass it as much as you say...I mean, the pass offense lacks playmakers and the offense naturally struggles. The rush offense lacks playmakers too, though. So, really if we're going run-run-run or run-run-pass it doesn't matter...we're still punting on 4th and short.

Sparano was going for huge chunks of yards and sometimes that worked. Sanchez's 14 completions went for an average of 16.4 yards per catch. That's pretty good in the grand scheme of things. We didn't always hit because we're talent deprived. If we had ran the ball more, we're probably punting more often than not because we're talent deprived. Sometimes, and I think this was Sparano's thinking last night, if you know the team your facing is more talented than you are, you have to scheme better than them and gain huge chunks of yardage. I think Sparano did that.

I think if we tried the alternative and ran the ball down their throats, we see a lot of punts and a lot of pedestrian drives. Our OL was simply not in a position to out manhandle the Texans front seven. Not with Mangold hurt. Not with Brandon Moore looking like garbage. Not with Austin Howard at RT. Especially not with Shonn Greene at RB.
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rickyt31


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 7112
Location: HEATlanta , GA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
rickyt31 wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Sparano and receivers are responsible for Sanchez's struggle.

said enough.
Sparano? How?


It is his offense that does not work.
Again, explain.


IMO he is calling the right plays we just don't have the pieces that fit his system. His scheme need the oline to be able to handle their one on one match ups and create wholes. None of our olinemen can create gaps. last year he had Brandon Marshall as a threat defenses had to plan for. There are no threats on our offense. We got a offense full of role players, no elite players.
we didnt have the personnel to run schottenheimer air coryell either...we still ran it. whats your point? We don't really have the personnel to run any form of NFL offense. There's no elite skill players on this team (something I had been calling for since WAY before this past draft was using a first round pick on an elite offensive skill position, namely Michael Floyd.)


I wanted Floyd too.

what I'm saying we don't have nothing for Tony to work with. Its not like Schotty ran it and did a good job. We sucked last year too. Tony is calling some pretty good plays, its the players on the field screwing it up. Last year the players were screwing up , and schotty was predictable.


I agree, but I think QJ was criticizing Sparano's system schematically...which I'd like to see the explanation for. Earlier this year QJ was a big proponent for keeping Schotty around.


Yeah I wanted to see the explanation too. I don't really have a problem with Tony.



Scottenheimer and Sparano have same problem. They do not adjust games. Once given blueprint is out, they expect players to follow.

In any situation, if offense struggles, a team stays with running game to kill times (old fashioned). In Scottenheimer and Sparano situation, if offense struggles, they air it out wild.

Incomplete pass could lead to key INT and stop game clock. Defense got worn out faster. Also, it could save Sanchez' pass percentage.


I see what you're saying, but I don't think we pass it as much as you say...I mean, the pass offense lacks playmakers and the offense naturally struggles. The rush offense lacks playmakers too, though. So, really if we're going run-run-run or run-run-pass it doesn't matter...we're still punting on 4th and short.

Sparano was going for huge chunks of yards and sometimes that worked. Sanchez's 14 completions went for an average of 16.4 yards per catch. That's pretty good in the grand scheme of things. We didn't always hit because we're talent deprived. If we had ran the ball more, we're probably punting more often than not because we're talent deprived. Sometimes, and I think this was Sparano's thinking last night, if you know the team your facing is more talented than you are, you have to scheme better than them and gain huge chunks of yardage. I think Sparano did that.

I think if we tried the alternative and ran the ball down their throats, we see a lot of punts and a lot of pedestrian drives. Our OL was simply not in a position to out manhandle the Texans front seven. Not with Mangold hurt. Not with Brandon Moore looking like garbage. Not with Austin Howard at RT.


I agree, that game we had to continue passing. Texans averaged 4.8 rushing per carry, 3.0 for us. They were scoring and killing the clock. I wish our ground game was a threat, and could run the ball through out the game. But we don't have the backs or the line to do it.
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Rosstafarian


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching the game last night I thought to myself "Sanchez isn't THAT bad". Then he started getting his balls batted down in key situations and took an ugly ugly sack.

While he's not the worst starter in the league, there are plenty of guys who are doing much better with less experience. Maybe the Jets need more playmakers in the skill spots, but, would you really want Sanchez as the QB when the Jets decide to upgrade those positions? I wouldn't.
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rickyt31


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rosstafarian wrote:
Watching the game last night I thought to myself "Sanchez isn't THAT bad". Then he started getting his balls batted down in key situations and took an ugly ugly sack.

While he's not the worst starter in the league, there are plenty of guys who are doing much better with less experience. Maybe the Jets need more playmakers in the skill spots, but, would you really want Sanchez as the QB when the Jets decide to upgrade those positions? I wouldn't.


Every good QB in the league have atleast one threat defenses have to respect. No one has to plan to stop any of our skill position players. Even Tannehill has the 8th best rushing game behind him. We just did a bad job surrounding him. Hes not perfect, but would be better if Tanny did his job right.
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quietjetsket


Joined: 20 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:


I see what you're saying, but I don't think we pass it as much as you say...I mean, the pass offense lacks playmakers and the offense naturally struggles. The rush offense lacks playmakers too, though. So, really if we're going run-run-run or run-run-pass it doesn't matter...we're still punting on 4th and short.

Sparano was going for huge chunks of yards and sometimes that worked. Sanchez's 14 completions went for an average of 16.4 yards per catch. That's pretty good in the grand scheme of things. We didn't always hit because we're talent deprived. If we had ran the ball more, we're probably punting more often than not because we're talent deprived. Sometimes, and I think this was Sparano's thinking last night, if you know the team your facing is more talented than you are, you have to scheme better than them and gain huge chunks of yardage. I think Sparano did that.

I think if we tried the alternative and ran the ball down their throats, we see a lot of punts and a lot of pedestrian drives. Our OL was simply not in a position to out manhandle the Texans front seven. Not with Mangold hurt. Not with Brandon Moore looking like garbage. Not with Austin Howard at RT.


2 or 3 minutes difference and better field of position.

If all front 7 went in, the run game would be better. If Jets kept running, Texans would stay behind LOS. That is how pass offense should become useful.

Chemistry is the main reason offense struggles. It is Sparano's job to manage to keep mistakes minimal. If you raise the number of plays under duress, you will see more mistakes.
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:


I see what you're saying, but I don't think we pass it as much as you say...I mean, the pass offense lacks playmakers and the offense naturally struggles. The rush offense lacks playmakers too, though. So, really if we're going run-run-run or run-run-pass it doesn't matter...we're still punting on 4th and short.

Sparano was going for huge chunks of yards and sometimes that worked. Sanchez's 14 completions went for an average of 16.4 yards per catch. That's pretty good in the grand scheme of things. We didn't always hit because we're talent deprived. If we had ran the ball more, we're probably punting more often than not because we're talent deprived. Sometimes, and I think this was Sparano's thinking last night, if you know the team your facing is more talented than you are, you have to scheme better than them and gain huge chunks of yardage. I think Sparano did that.

I think if we tried the alternative and ran the ball down their throats, we see a lot of punts and a lot of pedestrian drives. Our OL was simply not in a position to out manhandle the Texans front seven. Not with Mangold hurt. Not with Brandon Moore looking like garbage. Not with Austin Howard at RT.


2 or 3 minutes difference and better field of position.

If all front 7 went in, the run game would be better. If Jets kept running, Texans would stay behind LOS. That is how pass offense should become useful.

Chemistry is the main reason offense struggles. It is Sparano's job to manage to keep mistakes minimal. If you raise the number of plays under duress, you will see more mistakes.


Our running game doesn't scare anyone enough to dedicate seven to stopping the run. Teams aren't even ready to defend the run on every snap and Greene still has under 3 yards a carry. I think where Sparano is really dropping the ball is not giving Powell runs. Then I could see your complaints working. Until Powell beats Greene out for carries, your point, while it makes perfect sense, is a bit moot. It doesn't help us move the ball or improve our field position if the Texans aren't even dedicating men for the run and Greene isn't getting anything but the 2 yards a carry he's used to.

Worst case scenario here: We're 3 & outing for the first few drives to wear down a potent Texans defense. Meanwhile they're very potent offense takes our very average defense down field a few times. Suddenly, we're down 21-3 because we tried to play smash mouth football with a team that's bigger, tougher and stronger than us. At that point it's time to air it out anyways...
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quietjetsket


Joined: 20 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:
quietjetsket wrote:
Colt45fool wrote:


I see what you're saying, but I don't think we pass it as much as you say...I mean, the pass offense lacks playmakers and the offense naturally struggles. The rush offense lacks playmakers too, though. So, really if we're going run-run-run or run-run-pass it doesn't matter...we're still punting on 4th and short.

Sparano was going for huge chunks of yards and sometimes that worked. Sanchez's 14 completions went for an average of 16.4 yards per catch. That's pretty good in the grand scheme of things. We didn't always hit because we're talent deprived. If we had ran the ball more, we're probably punting more often than not because we're talent deprived. Sometimes, and I think this was Sparano's thinking last night, if you know the team your facing is more talented than you are, you have to scheme better than them and gain huge chunks of yardage. I think Sparano did that.

I think if we tried the alternative and ran the ball down their throats, we see a lot of punts and a lot of pedestrian drives. Our OL was simply not in a position to out manhandle the Texans front seven. Not with Mangold hurt. Not with Brandon Moore looking like garbage. Not with Austin Howard at RT.


2 or 3 minutes difference and better field of position.

If all front 7 went in, the run game would be better. If Jets kept running, Texans would stay behind LOS. That is how pass offense should become useful.

Chemistry is the main reason offense struggles. It is Sparano's job to manage to keep mistakes minimal. If you raise the number of plays under duress, you will see more mistakes.


Our running game doesn't scare anyone enough to dedicate seven to stopping the run. Teams aren't even ready to defend the run on every snap and Greene still has under 3 yards a carry. I think where Sparano is really dropping the ball is not giving Powell runs. Then I could see your complaints working. Until Powell beats Greene out for carries, your point, while it makes perfect sense, is a bit moot. It doesn't help us move the ball or improve our field position if the Texans aren't even dedicating men for the run and Greene isn't getting anything but the 2 yards a carry he's used to.

Worst case scenario here: We're 3 & outing for the first few drives to wear down a potent Texans defense. Meanwhile they're very potent offense takes our very average defense down field a few times. Suddenly, we're down 21-3 because we tried to play smash mouth football with a team that's bigger, tougher and stronger than us. At that point it's time to air it out anyways...


Powell. Just because of Greene being a starter does not mean we are stick with him. Go with hot player. If Powell is able to give us at least 4 yards per carry then give him more.

Greene can come back if Powell falters.



Since Jets were not able to score a TD after 1st quarter TD, the argument of 21-3 with Jets relying on smashmouth is not good. Texans owned 17-7 lead at the halftime but it could be 10-10 or 13-10 with either team leads.

Greene led the team with 8 freaking carries in the full game when Powell should touch football at least 10-15 times in first either half or 3 quarters.


Granted, it is difficult to trust the running game against solid run defense but I still think the running game with Powell can help Jets win the game.
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