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Mark Dominik: Has he really been that good?
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Mark Dominik: Has he really been that good? Reply with quote

I know after the 2012 Off-Season, many labeled Mark Dominik the "Rock-Star GM." But since 2009, the beginning of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Rebuilding phase, I ask you, has he really been that good? Let me point out. He didn't play any role in the firing of Gruden and Bruce Allen. Both deserved to go. Dominik was on the list of other teams around the league in their GM search. The Glazers made the move and brought him to be the man in charge of putting together a talented team.

However, now in 2012, we have a new coachin staff, but still have many holes. So, lets take a look back at all of his moves and see what he's actually done with this franchise.

2009: FAs:
- Derrick Ward: Signed to a 4 year deal. Cut the following off-season in Training Camp.
- Michael Clayton: signed a 5 year deal worth 5-6 mil. Cut the following year in TC.
-Antonio Bryant: Franchised at 9 mill that year. Was absolutely terrible and was a lockerroom headache. Not retained (one of his better moves in 2010).

Lets also not forget he offered 100 million to Albert Haynseworth. If he chose Tampa, and we had to deal with that situation, no doubt we would have had a new GM in 2011 or 2012. I call him lucky on that one.

Now, let's take a look at his 2009 NFL draft selections:

1st Round: Josh Freeman QB: Jury is still out. You take a franchise qb in the 1st round and he's shown glimpses, but he's also shown glimpses of a lost 3rd stringer as well. We don't know about this pick.

2nd Round: Traded to Cleveland for Kellen Winslow: Many loved this move, but I was skeptical. After 7 Knee surgeries, I didn't think getting a 2 year rental was a good move. Look at someone, if we didn't make this trade, was on the board:
- Lesean McCoy. FAIL.

3rd Round: Roy Miller DT: He's beginning to come along, but I remember reading how the Front Office passed on Mike Wallace because they thought he was too much of a reminder of WR Dexter Jackson. Look how that one turned out Dom?

4th Round: Kyle Moore: Out of the NFL

5th Round: Xavier Fulton OT: Out of the NFL

6th Rd: No selection

7th Round: EJ Biggers CB and Sammie Stroughter WR/PR:
- Stroughter was a nice find as he is a solid role player and good special teams player, but he's never healthy it seems. Biggers had a decent 2010 season, but he's more of a 4th CB on your roster.

Overall, now grading your 2009 draft, you better hope Josh Freeman pans out or this gets an "F."

BTW, we finish 3-13.

2010: Dominik made no significant changes at all to this roster to try and improve through Free Agency. With Many holes at DT and DE, CB, S, OG, WR, RB, he decided to try and fill them through the draft?

The only move he made in FA was Sean Jones, SS: Horrible move, despite only getting him on the cheap. It was 2 long years watching him get burned and miss Tackles.

With all that money the Bucs had, they could have went after a Karlos Dansby, Julius Peppers, or Antrelle Rolle. Didn't.

Let's go to the draft shall we:

1st Round: Gerald McCoy DT: Dude has been a beast when healthy, but finished his 1st 2 seasons in the NFL on IR. He's been dominate this season, but I can't make judgement until he finishes a season.

2nd Round: Brian Price DT and Arrellious Benn WR: Both of these guys seem like busts. Price was cut in the off-season and had a rare hip injury. Arrellious Benn has been invisible. What pains me is looking at where we selected, we could have had both DE Carlos Dunlap and TE Rob Gronkowski. Oh Dear. Both are emerging as top players in there 3rd years. Brice is already out of the NFL. Benn has rarely seen the field.

3rd Round: Myron Lewis CB: This pick was supposed to be Ronde's future replacement. Hasn't turned out that way. He's been burned when healthy, and always hampered by a hamstring. Misses tackles and cant cover. Too soft.

Guess who we could have drafted if we needed a CB? Alteraun Verner. Tennesee got him in round 4 and he's been lights out for them replacing Finnegan.

4th Round: Mike Williams WR: This seems like a pick Dominik got right. He struggled in 2011, but that was kind of expected. This year he's shown he can do something when Freeman actually sees him.

5th Round: No pick

6th Round: Brent Bowden P: Really a punter? The only one that was worth drafting was Zolten Mesko. Reach much? There were RBs available such as Jonathon Dwyer or Anthony Dixon, both who could have bolstered the Backfield depth.

7th Round: Cody Grimm SS: Had a solid Rookie year, but is nothing more than a back up.
- Dekota Watson LB: I liked this pick and still do. He's a very good Special Teams player and back up. I think he could take over for Black as well. Decent pass rusher from the LB spot.

Overall: McCoy, if he stays healthy, will be an elite player in this league. And Williams will help form a top 5 duo with V-Jax. We did get Lagarrette Blount as a UDFA, but he's very one dimmensional and don't know how to grade him to be honest.

I grade this draft as a "C+". Off-season ? F. No signings to improve.

2011: After a 10-6 season, where you go 9-1 against teams below .500 and 1-5 against teams above .500, you know you still need to improve your team to compete with the big boys of the NFL.

What did Dominik Do?

- Signed Punter Michael Koenen to a 6 year 20 million Dollar deal.
- Resgned Quincy Black for 6 million a year, and he's overrated.
- Resigned our Pro-Bowl guard to 7 years 56 mil. (Good move, deserved)
- Jeremy Trueblood: 2 years 8 mil.
But when it came to improving at CB, DT, DE, LB? WR? RB? He did nothing.
I see he waited for the draft, but we still needed veteran presence. Jonathon Joseph? look at what he's doing at CB in Houston?. We let that one slip.

Draft:

1st Round: Adrian Clayborn DE: Had a great rookie season at 7.5 sacks and non stop motor. Excellent in our run defense. However, he tore his acl in his 2nd year. Big blow.

2nd Round: Deqwan Bowers DE: This was a high risk/High reward pick. We saw flashes of the reward, but we also saw the risk: Injuries. Although it wasn't to his knee, achillies is very difficult to come back from. Remember, this was too good of a pick to turn down, but if we just took Dunlap a year ago, we could have taken :
Torrey Smith WR. yeah iknow, it's tough to play the "Should have would have game", but that's how you evaluate your GM vs Others.

3rd Round: Mason Foster LB: Love this pick and he's been a beast. Great selection.

4th Round: Luke Stocker TE: I liked this pick at first, but so far, no rewards. He reminded many as a Jason Witten, but he's nothing like that so far. Maybe he can develop, but he drops to many balls and cant seem to beat the LB.

5th Round : Ahmad Black S: Another good college player, and I like that he's made the roster. Ball hawker but undersized. Not sure if he's a starter in this league or solid reserve yet.

6th Round: Allen Bradford RB : Wish we could take this one back. Out of the NFL.

7th Round: Anthony Gaitor CB and Daniel Hardy TE: Hardy is out of the league. Gaitor, I liked as a potential 3rd/4th CB, but we haven;t seen enough of him due to injury and inexperience.

Overall, this draft seems better on paper so far. Foster has turned into a beast in his 2nd season. Clayborn is very good, but I was expecting to see a conisstant pass rusher from him in year 2. However, an injury sadly ended his season. Right now, I can give this a "B-" but thats in terms of we're still young here and only 2 guys are not with the team from this class.


Now 2012, is still in evaluation, but so far I love what I see from Lavonte David, Mark Barron, and Doug Martin. Moving down and moving back up to get there guys.

The FA Class: Jackson and Nicks are paying off. Wright has been solid, although Dominik vastly overpaid for a #2 CB. Clark has been a disapointment so far, but i cannot judge him on 2012 only 4 games in.

However, Dominik has made a lot of bad decisions from 2009-2011 that has hurt our rebuilding development. Josh Freeman to me, holds the key to his job on whether he stays or goes. You normally don't trust the same GM to pick your next QB when he flopped on the 1st one.

The 2010 class also weighs heavily on his job security. One where he had 4 day 1 and 2 picks, and so far, missed on 2 of them. Benn might be the 3rd. That's not very good.
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deuces22wild


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beside the Clayton and Ward moves I like what Mark had done for the most part. Rumors for years were that he was being held back during the FA period because he wasn't given the green light.

I can't stand "we could/should of drafted this guy". McCoy, Dunlap, Gronk, Verner, Smith.... if the other 31 Gms in the league weren't as dumb as ours they all would of been drafted long before they were anyway thus giving us no chance at drafting them.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
Beside the Clayton and Ward moves I like what Mark had done for the most part. Rumors for years were that he was being held back during the FA period because he wasn't given the green light.

I can't stand "we could/should of drafted this guy". McCoy, Dunlap, Gronk, Verner, Smith.... if the other 31 Gms in the league weren't as dumb as ours they all would of been drafted long before they were anyway thus giving us no chance at drafting them.


I agree. The only legit, "We should have done that" situation I can think of is trading up for Megatron. That was such a weak draft outside of the top few prospects.

Overall I'm not sure what you're getting at with this thread. We already looked at Dominik's lack of drafting skills especially in the mid-later rounds. By the way, are any of our picks from rounds 4-6 on the team right now?

I also don't understand the consensus that seems to exist that Bowers is already a bust. He has a major injury but he could easily recover and be back to normal. Just because Torrey Smith is playing well doesn't mean drafting Bowers is a mistake.

I also think, at this point, that signing Black was a good move. He's done a complete 180. Trueblood was better then than he is now. The Koenen signing gets mocked but he is money. And you can't exoect him to address like 10 positions at once.

Bottom line: relax. He's not a bad GM and I like that the team generally improves talent wise every year.
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
Beside the Clayton and Ward moves I like what Mark had done for the most part. Rumors for years were that he was being held back during the FA period because he wasn't given the green light.

I can't stand "we could/should of drafted this guy". McCoy, Dunlap, Gronk, Verner, Smith.... if the other 31 Gms in the league weren't as dumb as ours they all would of been drafted long before they were anyway thus giving us no chance at drafting them.


I hate to play the Coulda woulda shoulda game too. But when they ask about evaluations later , why u passed on Mike Wallace and u said he's dexter Jackson 2.0 obviously you're wrong. When you miss on guys and the guys you pass on become very good/great players (ex 2010: price and benn over Dunlap and Gronkowski) ythats how you're evaluated. Sorry to say but the 2010 besides McCoy and Williams ( if McCoy continues his play & stays healthy) will be a flop. You have 4 picks in the top 70 that year and missed on 3 of them. 2009 if freeman flops and trust me it doesn't look great so far , 2009 was an absolute fail.
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:
Beside the Clayton and Ward moves I like what Mark had done for the most part. Rumors for years were that he was being held back during the FA period because he wasn't given the green light.

I can't stand "we could/should of drafted this guy". McCoy, Dunlap, Gronk, Verner, Smith.... if the other 31 Gms in the league weren't as dumb as ours they all would of been drafted long before they were anyway thus giving us no chance at drafting them.


I also don't understand the consensus that seems to exist that Bowers is already a bust. He has a major injury but he could easily recover and be back to normal. Just because Torrey Smith is playing well doesn't mean drafting Bowers is a mistake.

I also think, at this point, that signing Black was a good move. He's done a complete 180. Trueblood was better then than he is now. The Koenen signing gets mocked but he is money. And you can't exoect him to address like 10 positions at once.

Bottom line: relax. He's not a bad GM and I like that the team generally improves talent wise every year.


I'm not saying Bowers is a "bust", if you read my post, you'd say as of right now, the risk has outweighed the reward with him. It all sounds nice on Paper, but what has Bowers done to warrent him as a good pick over say Torrey Smith?

Also, I don't understand how we went spending in 2009, made several mistakes, and then do nothing in 2010 and 2011. To me, that's not being handcuffed.

Also, you're correct. The Koenen signing was good, but 20 mil on a punter? WTF? Overpaying for Quincy Black, someone who's not a 3 down LB? Thats a terrible move considering he's not on the field that much to begin with. He's very replaceable. Too bad his contract isn't.

My point is with 2011: We spent that much on Black and Koenen, but we couldn't get a good CB in Jonathon Joseph because we were comfortable with Biggers, Lewis? Hah. Eric Wright is good, but he's not 5 years 37 mil good. That's why I dont think we sign Talib. Impossible because Talib ain't with that much either.
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tml_gogo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tml_gogo wrote:
I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.


I think he's been average. Think about what he had to work with when he came in with Rah (and consider he was also working with Rah). How many players from the 2008 squad are still on the team? 4? Barber, Penn, Joseph and Talib? Maybe Zuttah, too?

In 4 years he basically constructed our whole team. He's made mistakes IMO and has his weaknesses, but he's also taken some good risks that got us all of our current good rookies as well as players like Mike Williams and Blount, not to mention our current FAs. Where would we be right now without Carl Nicks and a real WR in Jackson? Even Wright helps hold our defense together compared to when he's out.

He's not an all star but he's doing well with the cards he's been dealt. It could be much worse.
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
tml_gogo wrote:
I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.


I think he's been average. Think about what he had to work with when he came in with Rah (and consider he was also working with Rah). How many players from the 2008 squad are still on the team? 4? Barber, Penn, Joseph and Talib? Maybe Zuttah, too?

In 4 years he basically constructed our whole team. He's made mistakes IMO and has his weaknesses, but he's also taken some good risks that got us all of our current good rookies as well as players like Mike Williams and Blount, not to mention our current FAs. Where would we be right now without Carl Nicks and a real WR in Jackson? Even Wright helps hold our defense together compared to when he's out.

He's not an all star but he's doing well with the cards he's been dealt. It could be much worse.


I'll give you this: yes. Good job in the 2012 offseason. But the prior 3 years he flopped. Those were supposed to be key in our rebuilding process.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
I'm not saying Bowers is a "bust", if you read my post, you'd say as of right now, the risk has outweighed the reward with him. It all sounds nice on Paper, but what has Bowers done to warrent him as a good pick over say Torrey Smith?


Torrey Smith was viewed as a project pick who happened to pan out sooner than expected. Bowers played a solid half of the season before being injured again. A combination of judging these players too soon and not viewing the decisions in the context they were made is making this an unfair argument against Dominik. Most of your other points are good but you can't play the "redraft" game.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
tml_gogo wrote:
I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.


I think he's been average. Think about what he had to work with when he came in with Rah (and consider he was also working with Rah). How many players from the 2008 squad are still on the team? 4? Barber, Penn, Joseph and Talib? Maybe Zuttah, too?

In 4 years he basically constructed our whole team. He's made mistakes IMO and has his weaknesses, but he's also taken some good risks that got us all of our current good rookies as well as players like Mike Williams and Blount, not to mention our current FAs. Where would we be right now without Carl Nicks and a real WR in Jackson? Even Wright helps hold our defense together compared to when he's out.

He's not an all star but he's doing well with the cards he's been dealt. It could be much worse.


I'll give you this: yes. Good job in the 2012 offseason. But the prior 3 years he flopped. Those were supposed to be key in our rebuilding process.


The prior 3 years he put together a huge portion of our team. 6 of our front 7, our nickel corner and 3rd safety on defense (who I mention because he's seen playing time), and our QB, 2nd RB, 2nd and 3rd WRs. Great? No, but if he's done such an awful job we wouldn't be 1-3 with 3 very close losses to decent teams.
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bucsfan333


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hindsight is always 20/20.
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tml_gogo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucsfan333 wrote:
Hindsight is always 20/20.


Of course, there is no disputing that. I'm not doing a direct comparison to other players, such as Red and Pewter did, but how else can you judge a GM? I'm just looking at his picks, and I see very little quality. The players we draft rarely make any kind of impact, and of course hindsight is 20/20, not saying anything about the players he didn't pick. I'm just saying the players he did pick included far more miss than hit.
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
REDandPEWTER wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
tml_gogo wrote:
I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.


I think he's been average. Think about what he had to work with when he came in with Rah (and consider he was also working with Rah). How many players from the 2008 squad are still on the team? 4? Barber, Penn, Joseph and Talib? Maybe Zuttah, too?

In 4 years he basically constructed our whole team. He's made mistakes IMO and has his weaknesses, but he's also taken some good risks that got us all of our current good rookies as well as players like Mike Williams and Blount, not to mention our current FAs. Where would we be right now without Carl Nicks and a real WR in Jackson? Even Wright helps hold our defense together compared to when he's out.

He's not an all star but he's doing well with the cards he's been dealt. It could be much worse.


I'll give you this: yes. Good job in the 2012 offseason. But the prior 3 years he flopped. Those were supposed to be key in our rebuilding process.


The prior 3 years he put together a huge portion of our team. 6 of our front 7, our nickel corner and 3rd safety on defense (who I mention because he's seen playing time), and our QB, 2nd RB, 2nd and 3rd WRs. Great? No, but if he's done such an awful job we wouldn't be 1-3 with 3 very close losses to decent teams.


If we hit on those picks especially the qb, we'd be 3-1. What has benn done to be the 3rd wr?

He did a nice job in 2012. I'm asking you think outside the bucs from a football perspective not as a fan. We've seen bowers flash but if he was so good how come he couldn't unseat Michael Bennett? I never said he busted. I said so far injuries have outweighed the reward. I'm guessing u ignored that part.

We're in year 4 of the rebuilding process. And honestly we should be a playoff team. At this point were competitive but you are what you're record says. Our cb depth lacks quality. Talib and wright are solid #2 CBS. The rest are absolutely terrible.

Up until 2012 Dom has not done a good job. If Freeman busts we look for a new gm.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
REDandPEWTER wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
tml_gogo wrote:
I think he's done a pretty poor job to be honest.

This last draft is his only one that didn't totally suck. So far.


I think he's been average. Think about what he had to work with when he came in with Rah (and consider he was also working with Rah). How many players from the 2008 squad are still on the team? 4? Barber, Penn, Joseph and Talib? Maybe Zuttah, too?

In 4 years he basically constructed our whole team. He's made mistakes IMO and has his weaknesses, but he's also taken some good risks that got us all of our current good rookies as well as players like Mike Williams and Blount, not to mention our current FAs. Where would we be right now without Carl Nicks and a real WR in Jackson? Even Wright helps hold our defense together compared to when he's out.

He's not an all star but he's doing well with the cards he's been dealt. It could be much worse.


I'll give you this: yes. Good job in the 2012 offseason. But the prior 3 years he flopped. Those were supposed to be key in our rebuilding process.


The prior 3 years he put together a huge portion of our team. 6 of our front 7, our nickel corner and 3rd safety on defense (who I mention because he's seen playing time), and our QB, 2nd RB, 2nd and 3rd WRs. Great? No, but if he's done such an awful job we wouldn't be 1-3 with 3 very close losses to decent teams.


If we hit on those picks especially the qb, we'd be 3-1. What has benn done to be the 3rd wr?

He did a nice job in 2012. I'm asking you think outside the bucs from a football perspective not as a fan. We've seen bowers flash but if he was so good how come he couldn't unseat Michael Bennett? I never said he busted. I said so far injuries have outweighed the reward. I'm guessing u ignored that part.

We're in year 4 of the rebuilding process. And honestly we should be a playoff team. At this point were competitive but you are what you're record says. Our cb depth lacks quality. Talib and wright are solid #2 CBS. The rest are absolutely terrible.

Up until 2012 Dom has not done a good job. If Freeman busts we look for a new gm.


I only meant that there is a general forum thought process that seems to point to the opinion that Bowers isn't going to pan out. That wasn't directed at you specifically. But anyway he was a rookie last year and Bennett is also pretty good (another Dom find, coincidentally).

I'm with you on Freeman, honestly. But is that something you put on Dom, too? Where would we be right now if we never took Freeman in 2009? Probably calling for Dom's head either way. He had one real opportunity to build a team and he took Freeman. While Freeman's window, IMO, is nearly closed, there's still a chance he pans out. Let's see what happens after the Bye week against some of the lesser defenses on our schedule before we really throw in the towel on him, because he could really use 2 weeks to improve.
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tml_gogo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I don't blame Dom for Freeman at all. It was the right pick to make, but unfortunately, that's the nature of the business.
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