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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.


Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


idk i thought most hc's before they are hired present their list of OC's and DC's to the GM/owner
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.


Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


idk i thought most hc's before they are hired present their list of OC's and DC's to the GM/owner


Sure they do. But a league full of positions are filled so it doesn't mean you can get the guys you truly want. We could pine all we want for Lebeau to be our DC, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

You have to choose from the available pool. And since Allen was hired late, a limited pool was even more limited. Like I said it takes time to build the staff you truly want.
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Dreadymatt


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 1039
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="holyghost"]
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.[/quotIn

Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


They might be available now, or at the end of the season
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5766
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Dreadymatt"]
holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.[/quotIn

Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


They might be available now, or at the end of the season


Exactly.

I don't believe that our Gm and HC are all set with staff and won't be rturning any of that over. Time will tell, and time it will take.
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Dreadymatt


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now I wonder if they'll shuffle things at all for Atlanta, maybe switch the guards over ( they can't get much worse)
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14830
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.


Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


idk i thought most hc's before they are hired present their list of OC's and DC's to the GM/owner


Sure they do. But a league full of positions are filled so it doesn't mean you can get the guys you truly want. We could pine all we want for Lebeau to be our DC, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
You have to choose from the available pool. And since Allen was hired late, a limited pool was even more limited. Like I said it takes time to build the staff you truly want.


bingo.
and im pretty sure all the the oc's and dc's on DA's list were from the available pool.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3096
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dreadymatt wrote:
Right now I wonder if they'll shuffle things at all for Atlanta, maybe switch the guards over ( they can't get much worse)


Oh god no. If we reshuffle, the line will be more confused than they already are. That defense will have a field day.
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

silver_surfer wrote:

We are just running stupid zone blocking scheme... We I still don't know we switch Wiz from LG. if it's not broke don't fix it! Wiz and Valdheer made one the best left sides of the line in the NFL last year... Samson Sateele was a leader for this team too. He wasn't all world but he was a good player.. All we maybe needed was too upgrade our right side but we did have two power running prospects in Bruce Campbell and Barksdale.. Now I don't know if they would of panned out, but they had no chance in zone blocking. Frankly idk if any of our lineman and made for it

Imo most overvalue last years run blocking. We sucked pretty much the 2nd half of the season. The ZBS isn't a bad scheme, one can be succesfull with it, but it will take time to make the transition.

For me there was no reason to switch, but i much rather have our HC being able to pick a system he believes in and work together with the GM to find the players and coaches for that, then the old situation.
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdUbs14 wrote:
macklemore wrote:
SilverNBlackFan wrote:
Absolutely hate this scheme. Oline looks lost n confused. Dmac is not a cutback runner with great vision. Just terrible all around. Dennis allen f'd up big time choosing this clown.


To be fair the execution will get better with in time, very rarely does a team execute a new system with new players perfectly from day 1. Especially a system like the ZBS. Also I believe McFadden can be succesful but so can alot of cheaper backs.

It's not like Dennis Allen had a bunch of up and coming prospects to choose from. He was the last HC hired if im not mistaken leaving him with a dried up pool.

I would give Knapp another year, I am a fan of the ZBS.

But Tarver has this D playing like hot crap, He is just as bad as Bresnehan, we need a real DC next year.


We still had Saunders on the staff...

Yeah, but he didn't fit the scheme our hc (and gm?) wanted. I much rather suck it up for a transition year but end up with the scheme our fo wants, rather then keep something what they don't believe in.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14228
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roninho wrote:

Imo most overvalue last years run blocking. We sucked pretty much the 2nd half of the season.


-It was still better than this year.
-The running game greatly suffered when Bush wore down after a few starts.
-Bush doesn't offer much ability to run off tackle, making the running game too predictable.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silver_surfer wrote:
fans are now blaming McFadden...


that's just sad, he is the most talented player on this team..


We are just running stupid zone blocking scheme... We I still don't know we switch Wiz from LG. if it's not broke don't fix it! Wiz and Valdheer made one the best left sides of the line in the NFL last year... Samson Sateele was a leader for this team too. He wasn't all world but he was a good player.. All we maybe needed was too upgrade our right side but we did have two power running prospects in Bruce Campbell and Barksdale.. Now I don't know if they would of panned out, but they had no chance in zone blocking. Frankly idk if any of our lineman and made for it


I don't hear fans blaming McFadden. He is simply miscast in this system. The onus is on the coordinator & HC to put players in the best situation to be successful. period. Everyone knows DMC can play.

Although I absolutely agree with those of us who are holding Knapp/DA/McKenzie responsible in that order, with all due respect it is a gross exaggeration that Wiz had a great season at LG in 2011. It's another one of those things that is commonly said around here that statistically isn't true. The facts are Wiz had a season atypical of a rookie. While Wiz did show promise he was hardly a world beater, although he does get credit for playing through a torn labrum which obviously contributed to his so-so play. All offseason I accurately predicted that he would be moved to OC where I still think that, IF healthy, he can eventually develop into a fireplug in the middle.

Satele was never a leader for the Raiders. Did you possibly mean to say starter?

Imo, Bruce Campbell had little chance of developing. He needs to be with a team DEEP at OL that has the patience to help him understand pro-level blocking concepts. Barksdale was a decent risk that simply didn't pan out.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3648
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.


Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


idk i thought most hc's before they are hired present their list of OC's and DC's to the GM/owner


Sure they do. But a league full of positions are filled so it doesn't mean you can get the guys you truly want. We could pine all we want for Lebeau to be our DC, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
You have to choose from the available pool. And since Allen was hired late, a limited pool was even more limited. Like I said it takes time to build the staff you truly want.


bingo.
and im pretty sure all the the oc's and dc's on DA's list were from the available pool.



Then DA is even a worst HC then I thought. Why get rid of AL Saunders for Knapp, if DA never wanted Knapp in the first place?
So DA can fire Knapp next year? Why not wait a year and get the OC he wanted
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
I've been looking at the game tapes and focusing on the OL the last few days. All that I'm seeing is an OL that is completely scrambled. There is no unity. All you see is our guys going backwards. They are simply being physically abused almost each & every play. The fact that Palmer is holding his own & McFadden gets passed the line of scrimmage is remarkable.

Poor execution by the players is one thing, but it's evident this staff has not employed this scheme in correctly. You have to fit what the players do, not what you want to do as a coach. At least that's how I see it.

Side note: How disappointing has Brisiel been? For a guy who was supposedly solid in the ZBS scheme in Houston to come here & arguably be the worst player on the OL is sad to see.


Maybe if we're going to run the ZBS we need to invest in the top ZBS OL coaches around?


Please consider that maybe those guys were just not available when Allen was made HC.
It takes time to build a staff and roster the way you want it in the NFL.


idk i thought most hc's before they are hired present their list of OC's and DC's to the GM/owner


Sure they do. But a league full of positions are filled so it doesn't mean you can get the guys you truly want. We could pine all we want for Lebeau to be our DC, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
You have to choose from the available pool. And since Allen was hired late, a limited pool was even more limited. Like I said it takes time to build the staff you truly want.


bingo.
and im pretty sure all the the oc's and dc's on DA's list were from the available pool.



Then DA is even a worst HC then I thought. Why get rid of AL Saunders for Knapp, if DA never wanted Knapp in the first place?
So DA can fire Knapp next year? Why not wait a year and get the OC he wanted


i think da wanted knapp cause he didnt know any better. i also question how the zbs is so hard to stop. maybe if you mix it up and run psb then switch to zone. makes me think about Reg in a different light. why did reg think knapp was a ok choice for oc. DA doesnt offer the contracts he just offers the suggestions.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
silver_surfer wrote:
fans are now blaming McFadden...


that's just sad, he is the most talented player on this team..


We are just running stupid zone blocking scheme... We I still don't know we switch Wiz from LG. if it's not broke don't fix it! Wiz and Valdheer made one the best left sides of the line in the NFL last year... Samson Sateele was a leader for this team too. He wasn't all world but he was a good player.. All we maybe needed was too upgrade our right side but we did have two power running prospects in Bruce Campbell and Barksdale.. Now I don't know if they would of panned out, but they had no chance in zone blocking. Frankly idk if any of our lineman and made for it


I don't hear fans blaming McFadden. He is simply miscast in this system. The onus is on the coordinator & HC to put players in the best situation to be successful. period. Everyone knows DMC can play.

Although I absolutely agree with those of us who are holding Knapp/DA/McKenzie responsible in that order, with all due respect it is a gross exaggeration that Wiz had a great season at LG in 2011. It's another one of those things that is commonly said around here that statistically isn't true. The facts are Wiz had a season atypical of a rookie. While Wiz did show promise he was hardly a world beater, although he does get credit for playing through a torn labrum which obviously contributed to his so-so play. All offseason I accurately predicted that he would be moved to OC where I still think that, IF healthy, he can eventually develop into a fireplug in the middle.

Satele was never a leader for the Raiders. Did you possibly mean to say starter?

Imo, Bruce Campbell had little chance of developing. He needs to be with a team DEEP at OL that has the patience to help him understand pro-level blocking concepts. Barksdale was a decent risk that simply didn't pan out.


+1.

Wiz wore down last year. Everyone likes to blame Bush, but the Oline became a little suspect in run blocking late last year. The Oline simply isn't that good, or deep for that matter.

Veldheer and Wiz are two nice pieces. Bergstrom is a question mark. Everyone else is run of the mill and could be replaced.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Everyone likes to blame Bush, but the Oline became a little suspect in run blocking late last year.


It's gonna happen when opposing defenses can focus on stopping inside runs all game long because the RB can't run to the outside.
Maybe the oline didn't play as well as they did at the start of the season but there's no question in my mind Bush was the main issue. Anyone watching the games last season could see he had no explosion left in his legs past his 4th game as the featured back.
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