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The question of Jake Long...
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Fender


Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 904
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly feel something is off with Jake this year - I think the knee sprain he sustained in preseason has had lingering effects.

Although I dont want to trade him I agree with Dolphinologist in that his value is never greater than on each passing day... but in Ireland-fashion I dont see Miami trading Long for anything close to real value.
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only issue with Long is his price. If he brings it down then I say we pay him his money and have our LT spot set for the next 5 years. If he is asking for double digit numbers per season then we'll have to let him go. I would only trade him for a 1st and 3rd. Anything less and I would rather take our chances resigning him. Without him our oline is bottom 5 in the league, even if he doesn't fit our scheme.
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Deadeye


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:
fishfan4life wrote:
I refuse to jump to conclusions on jake long just because he is off to a slow start in pass protection after 4 games.


Why not....just use this...

I literally was watching that movie just 30 minutes before your post.

"I celebrate the guy's entire catalogue."
-- Bob Slydell
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The excerpt below was taken from Jake Long's pre-draft analysis on NFL.com



Quote:
Negatives: A little tight in his hips, lacking ideal lateral agility in his kick-slide and can struggle when having to immediately change direction (will take false steps)...Has a strong hand punch, but tends to get them outside his frame, causing him to whiff a lot on a quick pass set (inconsistent placement)...Best operating in a short area, as he does show some balance issues when asked to run long distances...Needs to show better explosion off the snap when engaging defenders, but does compensate with a strong hand punch...When he gets too high in his stance, his base narrows and he will revert to over-extending in attempts to position and sustain...Must unlock his hips and explode more often into the defender, as he prefers to use his size to engulf or hands to sustain rather than blow up the defender (better earlier in games)...More effective working on an island with an edge rusher, as his lack of ideal hip swerve will see him allow inside penetration. Compares To: JAMAAL BROWN-New Orleans...Like Brown, Long is a mauler with excellent drive-blocking skills. He compensates for a lack of explosion by taking good angles to adjust to movement and has the big hands and upper-body strength to consistently walk his man off the line. He shows the kick-step to mirror edge rushers, but does allow some inside penetration with his sluggish hip swerve working in-line. In a game plan that features physical drive blocking, Long is a perfect fit. But, if you put him in a zone-blocking formation, he lacks the lateral agility needed to mirror inside movement.


To my eye the same holds true today
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Fender


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dolphinologist lets get specific here, instead of using pre-draft analysis and talking-head points about how terrible Jake Long is in pass-protection or run-blocking tell me which games/series/plays you are taking issue with? Because i've seen you criticize Jakes skill set and athleticism as not a 'fit' to zone block, and now just recently you've started dogging his pass-protection as more reasoning as why he doesnt 'fit' here anymore.

Now historically Long has been superb in pass-protection; running with the best of the best in sacks given up/hurries and pressures etc. Yes, this year he's above his average but I feel this IS some relation to the new system and possibly a lingering injury - lets not forget this man played a 1/4 of a season a few years back with one arm (decently mind you). I stand by me reasoning that if you cant make a healthy Jake Long 'work' in your pass protection schemes than the problem is YOU (the coach), not Jake Long.

As far as his zone-blocking skills go, clue me in on where he is coming up short. Are we just not running his way? Because last time I checked we are top 5 in rushing?? I know we run more into the center/guards than at tackle but his averages are better than the right side...

Lets not forget how terribly HARD it is to find talent on the offensive line that can run block AND pass block at a high level - its damn near impossible to find and even more impossible to teach. If we were hurting for draft picks, or hurting on cap-space, or had an offer for Andre Johnson or D Ware on the table I could understand the wanting to move J Long, but at this point I just dont see the massive up side that you do to moving him. His place and hit on this team isnt nearly as dire as it is inside your head.

Somehow you've convinced yourself that he is a below-average tackle in 'this system' and cant see it any other way or even entertain the idea that you may be off base ... put together a cohesive - and above all - coherent synopsis on why keeping him is a bad move, as well as some palatable evidence and maybe you'd find more agreeable companions here.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fender wrote:
Dolphinologist lets get specific here, instead of using pre-draft analysis and talking-head points about how terrible Jake Long is in pass-protection or run-blocking tell me which games/series/plays you are taking issue with? Because i've seen you criticize Jakes skill set and athleticism as not a 'fit' to zone block, and now just recently you've started dogging his pass-protection as more reasoning as why he doesnt 'fit' here anymore.

Now historically Long has been superb in pass-protection; running with the best of the best in sacks given up/hurries and pressures etc. Yes, this year he's above his average but I feel this IS some relation to the new system and possibly a lingering injury - lets not forget this man played a 1/4 of a season a few years back with one arm (decently mind you). I stand by me reasoning that if you cant make a healthy Jake Long 'work' in your pass protection schemes than the problem is YOU (the coach), not Jake Long.

As far as his zone-blocking skills go, clue me in on where he is coming up short. Are we just not running his way? Because last time I checked we are top 5 in rushing?? I know we run more into the center/guards than at tackle but his averages are better than the right side...

Lets not forget how terribly HARD it is to find talent on the offensive line that can run block AND pass block at a high level - its damn near impossible to find and even more impossible to teach. If we were hurting for draft picks, or hurting on cap-space, or had an offer for Andre Johnson or D Ware on the table I could understand the wanting to move J Long, but at this point I just dont see the massive up side that you do to moving him. His place and hit on this team isnt nearly as dire as it is inside your head.

Somehow you've convinced yourself that he is a below-average tackle in 'this system' and cant see it any other way or even entertain the idea that you may be off base ... put together a cohesive - and above all - coherent synopsis on why keeping him is a bad move, as well as some palatable evidence and maybe you'd find more agreeable companions here.



Here's the passing plays from the Arizona game. The focus is on Tannehill but the play of Long (and Incognito as well for that matter) can be analyzed here as well.

Please don't dismiss the FACT that I made it clear that the trade jake long boat has sailed. I've been talking about this since the end of last season.

Now his rankings have dropped. His sacks allowed has increased. He's always been described as a Mauling tackle suited for a man blocking system, But Doc is pulling this out hizzass. Right ?

You can't wrap your head around it so my point of view gets a million condescending labels and back handed insults in return. I don't agree with you so i'm not cohesive or specific. Just using talking head points. Then you FLAT OUT LIE by saying I said he's "terrible" ... when I clearly stated that not fitting a scheme does not make him a bad player.

We spend so much time in this forum in season and off season discussing the height and weight requirements for various positions. And we relate them to scheme and coaching styles. It was nauseating to keep hearing the phrase "He's a parcells guy" ... but that's the reality of football.

Our GM and owner hired a guy who runs a ZBS. That system requires movement that is NOT jake long's forte. HIS MOBILITY LIMITATIONS ARE AFFECTING SCREEN PLAYS AND DESIGNED ROLL OUTS. AND WHEN WE RUN MULTIPLE PASS PLAYS IN A ROW SPEED RUSHERS HAVE AN EDGE TO MY EYE .... #stilltoovague

Don't diagnose me. I don't convince myself about the facts of external issues. Why would I, a dolphin fan for over 30 years intentionally create issues about our best lineman in a man blocking system ?
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc,

I am not going to debate with you about Jake Long in this system. You are absolutely correct that there are tackle prospects more ideally suited to this offense and that paying top dollar to one that we know won't max his production in this offense is at worst a move that leaves us all feeling uncomfortable.

HOWEVER, that's not where this story ends. That's the problem statement. No one gets credit for writing their name on the paper and reading the problem statement.

What's important is the solution the team is charged with finding. Quite frankly the problem we're faced with is not hard to conceive or understand. However the solution is messy because no matter the course of action, there will be risk and penalty.



Firstly, Long will not be a failure in our ZBS so there's no reason for anyone to feel bad about his performance compared with most of the NFL. It's the money that most of us are concerned about. The hall-mark of a bad organization is that it usually spends too much. Bad organizations pay premium dollars for average production. If Jake Long isn't an elite LT in this ZBS/offense then he shouldn't be paid as though he were. However, read the first line of this paragraph again. Don't lose perspective and be tricked by the words of some into thinking we have a Chernobyl going on at LT.

We have a business decision to make at LT. That's precisely what makes this a difficult choice and one where there's less agreement between individuals over this topic.

Nobody is exactly sure how healthy Jake Long is right now.

No one is exactly sure how Jake Long is playing because no one's done a thorough evaluation.

No one is sure what size contract Jake Long will be offered in free agency by this or any other team.

No one is sure whether Jake Long would be happy to remain a Dolphin or if he's seen enough of Miami.

No one is sure what Jake Long would be worth to a contender via trade right now or if that possibly is even out there.

No one is sure how they feel about using a valuable pick to replace a player because of salary issues.


The extent to which Jake Long's salary can be justified however must be weighed in each person's mind. For everyone, the fact that Jake Long is a team-first individual, a physical fighter and a leader of men in every sense will mean something.

Over-paying for Long is one thing. Drastically over-paying for him is another. I think we all have to ask ourselves where we draw the line in the sand on that topic because it's part of finding a solution here.

It's important to realize that drafting another Tackle in April of 2013 yields a very small chance of raising the production we currently have. The point of that move would be as much about saving money as it would getting better production. The risk you take is that you might wind up with someone significantly below the level of Jake Long. You might wind up with someone at his level or possibly slightly better. Because Jake is a known commodity and is amongst the league's top-half at his position, it's a very risky endeavor.

The point however would be to assume that there's maybe a 70% chance you're able to reproduce similar production with only a 30% chance of losing something. Maybe if the scouting department is sharp there's only something like a 20% chance of catastrophic failure.

Whether you agree with my off-the-cuff percentages above or believe something different, you MUST come up with some picture of the future. How confident are you that you can draft successfully? How much are you willing to overpay to avoid having to risk it in the first place?

I can tell you now that no scouting department in the NFL would buy into the concept that there is more than maybe a 25% chance of improving our LT performance by entering the draft. If you think there's more than a 1-in-4 chance of improving our actual performance while also paying less for it, you are dreaming. The odds of that will be low even with the best scouting.

It is vitally important that we understand the monetary concerns because they are at the heart of this issue. As I said before, this is a difficult choice because it involves the business of football.




There are things however that all of us must consider here.

Jake Long is injury-prone. It's true of him as much as any player in recent memory who's had that label. He's dealt with injuries throughout his short career and shown no ability to stay completely healthy. Is that unusual for a lineman? Not really by what little I know of the positions. However, Jake's ability to play while banged up and sometimes outright beat to hell is impressive if not inspiring.

The point we as fans need to understand is that by any reasonable measure Jake Long, no matter his measure-ables, will likely play below his potential due to injury concerns. The ZBS hasn't been a part of Jake's NFL past to this point so his injuries have nothing to do with that aspect of the game. In fact, we might even ask if the Man-blocking is part of why Jake Long is continually hurt.

If anything, the case can be made that we might expect some of Jake's injury concerns to diminish with a less abusive style of blocking which puts less wear and tear on his body.



What I consider to be the fundamental problem with losing Jake Long is that his replacement (a rookie) would leave us with 2 highly exposed and inexperienced OT's. This is the problem which has resulted in Kevin Kolb being sacked a total of 17 times in the last 2 games. There's a 17 I'm worried about too! His jersey just showed up at my door today. Wink

If we keep Jake Long a Dolphin we assure ourselves that pass protection will remain solid over the next few seasons. This is important because these seasons will be the basis for Tannehill's development and the will allow us ample time and continuity to replace Incognito at LG and possibly John Jerry at RG as well. This can be done promptly and effectively such that we're as happy about our LG & RG as we are currently about our C & RT.

As I've said numerous times now, if you can produce an O-line by 2015 in which your biggest flaw is that you're over-paying Jake Long at LT for solid (non-elite) production then I would deem your project a success. Guards are not hard to find or develop when next to solid tackles and centers. What's more, we don't have to spend our highest pick(s) on Guards like we would Tackles.

Keeping Jake Long around is something that positively effects our RT Martin by keeping him at RT. It positively effects our LG by allowing us to immediately replace Incognito, the weakest link on the line. It positively effects our QB by giving him solid, consistent protection.

We talk about getting those players who make the players around them better. This is a decision that will have immediate positive ramifications for LG, RG, RT, QB and RB.

If you want to make a business decision that counts, this is surely one right here.
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Russ57


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose nobody can really provide the answers I am looking for. I'll make it easy and concede the Jake isn't "ideal" for a ZBS. That doesn't mean that he lacks the intelligence or agility to do quite well though. I don't think we can say the same of Incognito and Jerry.

I'm not concerned about having two rookie OL guys next to each other. Webb and Sims did just fine from day one. Besides, if Long goes I see Martin at LT.

I mean, hey if we are going to do this let's do it now. Move Martin to LT, draft your RT in the second round (one of the Texas A&M guys sounds like a no-brainer), and go get a pair of guards in the third round. Heck I'd wager Dallas Thomas could play LT if you want to go that way and he should be there in the 2nd. Guys like Warford and Bailey should be there in the third. Heck might as well pick up Cooper as Pouncey's eventual replacement because if we won't pay Long we won't pay him.

Face it, the ZBS is designed to maximize inferior talent. We no longer want an OL full of first rounders. It isn't fiscally smart. Get ready to allocate your money in a different way. Forget high priced LT's and #1 WR's. Tanny is fleet of foot, showed he can handle a blitz, and made Hartline look like a God.

Draft Star Lotulelei/Johnathan Hankins/Manti Te'o.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the Green Bay offensive line isn't exactly something I want to mimic these days. It got exposed pretty badly in Seattle and has never been fantastic. I'm not looking for a line of first round picks, I just want continuity. I also don't want to let talent in its prime leave the team. Honestly, I'm alright with not adding any free agents and just retaining all of our own guys. We've got extra second and third round picks. Lets hit up the building through the draft thing. Keep our drafted talent on the team, thats how you win championships.
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Fender


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Fender wrote:
Dolphinologist lets get specific here, instead of using pre-draft analysis and talking-head points about how terrible Jake Long is in pass-protection or run-blocking tell me which games/series/plays you are taking issue with? Because i've seen you criticize Jakes skill set and athleticism as not a 'fit' to zone block, and now just recently you've started dogging his pass-protection as more reasoning as why he doesnt 'fit' here anymore.

Now historically Long has been superb in pass-protection; running with the best of the best in sacks given up/hurries and pressures etc. Yes, this year he's above his average but I feel this IS some relation to the new system and possibly a lingering injury - lets not forget this man played a 1/4 of a season a few years back with one arm (decently mind you). I stand by me reasoning that if you cant make a healthy Jake Long 'work' in your pass protection schemes than the problem is YOU (the coach), not Jake Long.

As far as his zone-blocking skills go, clue me in on where he is coming up short. Are we just not running his way? Because last time I checked we are top 5 in rushing?? I know we run more into the center/guards than at tackle but his averages are better than the right side...

Lets not forget how terribly HARD it is to find talent on the offensive line that can run block AND pass block at a high level - its damn near impossible to find and even more impossible to teach. If we were hurting for draft picks, or hurting on cap-space, or had an offer for Andre Johnson or D Ware on the table I could understand the wanting to move J Long, but at this point I just dont see the massive up side that you do to moving him. His place and hit on this team isnt nearly as dire as it is inside your head.

Somehow you've convinced yourself that he is a below-average tackle in 'this system' and cant see it any other way or even entertain the idea that you may be off base ... put together a cohesive - and above all - coherent synopsis on why keeping him is a bad move, as well as some palatable evidence and maybe you'd find more agreeable companions here.



Here's the passing plays from the Arizona game. The focus is on Tannehill but the play of Long (and Incognito as well for that matter) can be analyzed here as well.

Please don't dismiss the FACT that I made it clear that the trade jake long boat has sailed. I've been talking about this since the end of last season.

Now his rankings have dropped. His sacks allowed has increased. He's always been described as a Mauling tackle suited for a man blocking system, But Doc is pulling this out hizzass. Right ?

You can't wrap your head around it so my point of view gets a million condescending labels and back handed insults in return. I don't agree with you so i'm not cohesive or specific. Just using talking head points. Then you FLAT OUT LIE by saying I said he's "terrible" ... when I clearly stated that not fitting a scheme does not make him a bad player.

We spend so much time in this forum in season and off season discussing the height and weight requirements for various positions. And we relate them to scheme and coaching styles. It was nauseating to keep hearing the phrase "He's a parcells guy" ... but that's the reality of football.

Our GM and owner hired a guy who runs a ZBS. That system requires movement that is NOT jake long's forte. HIS MOBILITY LIMITATIONS ARE AFFECTING SCREEN PLAYS AND DESIGNED ROLL OUTS. AND WHEN WE RUN MULTIPLE PASS PLAYS IN A ROW SPEED RUSHERS HAVE AN EDGE TO MY EYE .... #stilltoovague

Don't diagnose me. I don't convince myself about the facts of external issues. Why would I, a dolphin fan for over 30 years intentionally create issues about our best lineman in a man blocking system ?

Please stop using passing plays to prove he is not suited to zone-block, its like blaming Nannees inability to catch and hold onto the ball on his blocking skills. The sack he gave up against the Cards was because of an ill-advised cut-block... not because he lacked mobility. THe rest of the game was more or less solid. The only screen I saw was a failure because it was poorly executed by Tannehill by not selling his drop-back, outside of that - WHAT screens and WHAT rollouts are you even talking about?!?

Nobody can wrap their head around your argument because it lacks coherence and evidence. Your position is to just regurgitate the same pre-draft analysis of him that has been proven wrong since he came into the league. Not only that WHAT about his measureables dont fit a ZBS?!? A 'Parcells guy' does not make him exclusive to any 'scheme'. A lineman with his measureables are ideals for ANY scheme - he is a rare combination of size, strength, length and speed. The very attributes you point to as liabilities for zone-blocking (strength, mauler, size) etc are the VERY attributes that you WANT in a pass blocker. Again, your argument is not coherent or based in reality.

I apologize if i just dont want to take you at your 'eye'... from now on I shall refer to you as Dogmalogist - I think its much more fitting.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm talking about the Roll Outs and Screens that are being blown up and the ones that are not being called because our offense cannot execute them.

Did you just say that Jake Long has proven his scouting report wrong ? How has he done that when he hasn't run a ZBS in the NFL ? ... and when he did his rankings took a nose dive.

ANd you know why you think NOBODY can wrap their head around what I've been saying ? Despite the FACT that people here are expressing that they are seeing the same thing ? It's because you fell in love. You are biased and delusional. You have proven that your thought process is flawed. How ??? Well one of a few examples is saying that Jake Long has "proven" that he can play in a ZBS when his ranking has dropped during the only few times he's done it. Another example of your flawed thinking is that ZBS can only be displayed on running plays, because on passing plays, ZBS requires it's linemen to step into a gap. You don't need to be a "Mauler" to occupy a gap. I'm beginning to think you are a Dan Marino groupie who learned a little about football just to keep up over the years. You should never tell anyone about coherency.

And call me what you want. It's what I respond to that determines if you are wasting your time or not.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys quit the name calling. Fender, if you're going to attack the poster rather then the point..then not only are you losing the argument, you're breaking the rules of the site.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deets wrote:
But the Green Bay offensive line isn't exactly something I want to mimic these days. It got exposed pretty badly in Seattle and has never been fantastic. I'm not looking for a line of first round picks, I just want continuity. I also don't want to let talent in its prime leave the team. Honestly, I'm alright with not adding any free agents and just retaining all of our own guys. We've got extra second and third round picks. Lets hit up the building through the draft thing. Keep our drafted talent on the team, thats how you win championships.



Agreed.

I think the most important position along that line, the ones that are really hurting us are our Guards. As the guy with the Bender picture said, Darnell Docket would've really created a problem for us upfront.

Some of our big plays were helped because our inadequate Guards didn't have to face the elite talent they usually would. Jake Long is not the huge liability Doc's making him out to be. Instead, we need to lock him up and focus on developing the final 2 positions relatively quickly.

If there are 2 positions where rookies could start simultaneously it's at right- and left-Guard because at least then they'd have some solidarity next to each other. Nevertheless, if we resign Long, draft a replacement for Incognito and roll with Jerry for another season we'll be strong along the O-line next year with another chance to add talent in 2014.

I think this way we would hold onto a good player at LT, address a huge hole at LG with something like a 3rd round pick and be able to use most of our high picks on speedy, play-making talent at FS, WR and TE which is what we all will be excited to discuss come draft time.


I'm so ready to move on from this topic. I wish we'd just resign Long and get it over with. I've said my little bit which I think accounts for all factors. I'm in favor of resigning him and developing other positions to go ahead and move this team forward.

Over and out!
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we needed a LT we drafted Jake Long ... Started every regular season game since he signed on the dotted line. Same can be said for Mike Pouncey. Looks like Jonathan Martin will be doing the same thing. As will our QB. Vontae Davis did it and outside of his injury, so did Odrick.

Now we wanna act like in this day and age it's gonna be brain surgery trying to obtain an athletic and mobile LT ? All the best to you. It's gonna be such a headache replacing the 43rd best LT in the league. Yeah I take that ranking with a grain of salt, but i do keep it in the back of my mind that he finished 2011 ranked 21st. Forgive me for not wanting to give 12 mil. to that level of production.

So I'd go DE in round 1 if the stud is available. Go Tackle and Guard for the left side in round 2, living with Jerry for the time being or Maybe get a Vet Guard for the right side in FA.

Jake Long himself has been down on his own play. He's being interviewed about it. PFF published the stats to support it. So Go ahead lock him up. Let him retire a dolphin. In the mean time we can skimp on all the other positions we have to fill.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
When we needed a LT we drafted Jake Long ... Started every regular season game since he signed on the dotted line. Same can be said for Mike Pouncey. Looks like Jonathan Martin will be doing the same thing. As will our QB. Vontae Davis did it and outside of his injury, so did Odrick.

Now we wanna act like in this day and age it's gonna be brain surgery trying to obtain an athletic and mobile LT ? All the best to you. It's gonna be such a headache replacing the 43rd best LT in the league. Yeah I take that ranking with a grain of salt, but i do keep it in the back of my mind that he finished 2011 ranked 21st. Forgive me for not wanting to give 12 mil. to that level of production.

So I'd go DE in round 1 if the stud is available. Go Tackle and Guard for the left side in round 2, living with Jerry for the time being or Maybe get a Vet Guard for the right side in FA.

Jake Long himself has been down on his own play. He's being interviewed about it. PFF published the stats to support it. So Go ahead lock him up. Let him retire a dolphin. In the mean time we can skimp on all the other positions we have to fill.



Two 2nd-round rookies playing beside each other with a 2nd-year player at RT is a quick fix no matter how much your spending in draft picks. Adding another new face at RG in FA is worse. It isn't going to work properly. There will be no continuity along that line and the left side will get abused by any above-average DT/DE combo they face.

You'd be very lucky to have that scenario work out. As I pointed out, 2 inexperienced OTs just allowed Kevin Kolb to be sacked 17 times in 2 games once they faced 2 weeks of consistent pressure.

You might save money but in that scenario it isn't worth it. You lose way too much. Rebuilding the O-line isn't going to be done in 1 year. We have to face that.
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