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Kyle Rudolph poised for a breakout season
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
To me its looking like Ellison is going to be more productive then Carlson for this role of #2.


Agreed, I think Ellison has more versatility to be a FB/HB/TE and I think he is probably a stronger blocker at the point of attack. Further, given how little the Vikings have been using the #2 TE in the receiving game, there isnt much benefit in having Carlson's strengths as a receiver.

I think the Vikings originally intended to get more targets to its #2 TE, but its seems like the offense has evolved away from that. You have to play to the strengths of Ponder and it seems clear that Ponder simply isnt using that #2 TE and most of the targets should be going to Harvin, Rudolph and Simpson.

I know there is his perceived value in Carlson that since the team spent free agent money he has to play. I just cant support that theory. Rudolph is clearly the best receiving TE on the team and if the team isnt going to look to its #2 TE often for targets, you may as well have that guy be really good blocker. I am not sure that Carlson is a really good blocker and I think Ellison is a slightly underrated receiver. I dont think Ellison will be as one dimensional as Kleinsasser was in 2011.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
thestonedkoala wrote:
Why not stick Carlson inline and maybe flex out once in a while. He can catch. And he is as versatile.


I think Ellison is probably regarded as a better blocker than Carlson at this point. Ellison showed pretty good natural hands in the pre season. At this point, if Ellison is ready to get more reps than Carlson, I think its better for this team going forward.


Ellison is looking like a mighty fine allround football player. Athletically, he's pretty much a carbon copy of Carlson (combine/pro-day/height/weight numbers are nearly identical), but he's really been showing up in the blocking department, both inline, and as a lead blocker at fullback.

Like you said, he flashed decent hands in the pre season, but he'll have to refine his game if he is to become a reliable pass-catcher. Right now, he's a #3 tight-end in a run first offense, who spent most of his college career as a blocking fullback.

That said, with the lack of impact from Carlson, it's hard not to root for Ellison to take over his spot as the #2, if the coaches are confident enough of him consistently holding his blocks on the LOS.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously Ellison stepping up as the #2 TE means that the Vikings should get some decent cap relief in 2013. No reason to pay Carlson that kind of money to be the #3 TE.

Ultimately, the team needs to find ways to get Rudolph the ball. I think its unacceptable when Rudolph is only catching 2-4 passes per game given his level of talent. Rudolph should be a 5-8 catch per game receiver in this offense and obviously that kind of production will keep drives moving.

If putting a better blocker at TE in Ellison will allow Rudolph to flex out wide to get more opportunities, that is something this team must pursue.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 90% of all offensive players should have the ball going to Peterson, Havin, Rudolph, Simpson.

Theres just not alot of point in Carlson being on the field.
Ellison is the superior blocker, and Carlson attribute he can actually bring (he wont be brining it cuz we have better options).
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
I think +90% of all offensive players should have the ball going to Peterson (Gerhart), Havin, Rudolph, Simpson.

Theres just not alot of point in Carlson being on the field.
Ellison is the superior blocker, and Carlson attribute he can actually bring (he wont be brining it cuz we have better options).

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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
I think 90% of all offensive players should have the ball going to Peterson, Havin, Rudolph, Simpson.

Theres just not alot of point in Carlson being on the field.
Ellison is the superior blocker, and Carlson attribute he can actually bring (he wont be brining it cuz we have better options).


Further, if Ellison can be play FB and play it well, that makes Jerome Felton almost useless too.

The benefit of Ellison being able to play FB as well is you can more easily hide what your doing. With Ellison and Rudolph on the field, on any given play you can line up in I-formation with a lead FB, you can line up in 3 wides with Rudolph flexed out or you can line up in a traditional 2 TE set.

I am with you, Carlson obviously doesnt have the versatility to play FB and Felton doesnt have the versatility to play TE.

Its all about being able to disguise formations at the snap and using motion to your advantage. Rudolph and Ellison give MN that versatility to really run any kind of offensive set they desire too.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
CriminalMind wrote:
I think 90% of all offensive players should have the ball going to Peterson, Havin, Rudolph, Simpson.

Theres just not alot of point in Carlson being on the field.
Ellison is the superior blocker, and Carlson attribute he can actually bring (he wont be brining it cuz we have better options).


Further, if Ellison can be play FB and play it well, that makes Jerome Felton almost useless too.

The benefit of Ellison being able to play FB as well is you can more easily hide what your doing. With Ellison and Rudolph on the field, on any given play you can line up in I-formation with a lead FB, you can line up in 3 wides with Rudolph flexed out or you can line up in a traditional 2 TE set.

I am with you, Carlson obviously doesnt have the versatility to play FB and Felton doesnt have the versatility to play TE.

Its all about being able to disguise formations at the snap and using motion to your advantage. Rudolph and Ellison give MN that versatility to really run any kind of offensive set they desire too.


Jerome Felton has actually been playing great this year. He is our full time Fullback.

Ellison is just a flex back. He'll line up mostly as a TE, but will sometimes motion down into the FB spot to be a lead blocker when Felton isn't in there.

It gives our offense some identity, otherwise teams would probably just assume everytime Felton is in there, its a run, or when Ellison is playing, its a pass.

You can't play into the defense. The more looks you can effectively run, the better. I like the way our offense is right now with those 2 guys (doing what I just said).
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
Further, if Ellison can be play FB and play it well, that makes Jerome Felton almost useless too.


Jerome Felton has actually been playing great this year. He is our full time Fullback.


I think Felton is the key reason why we have seen less of Carlson so far. His play has been very impressive.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felton has been a good player, no doubt, but if Ellison can be developed into a similar quality player as a lead FB, in addition to being a blocking TE, I think there will be much more flexibility with the offense in terms of how many different personnel packages you can put on the field with the same group of guys.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Felton has been a good player, no doubt, but if Ellison can be developed into a similar quality player as a lead FB, in addition to being a blocking TE, I think there will be much more flexibility with the offense in terms of how many different personnel packages you can put on the field with the same group of guys.


That all sounds very good, but hypothetically lets look at it this way, we could either have:

1) 1 player who plays at an elite level at his postion

2) 1 player who is utilized in 2 roles, and is above average to good at his job.

Who do you take? For me, I'm taking #1.

I'd like to think this is the case in Minnesota. Where we have Felton who is playing at that elite level. He's been very impressive. When Felton is out, Ellison comes in, and allthough unproven, has done a very solid job at both of his positions so far.

But better yet, why fix it if it ain't broke? If you mean "Flexibility with the offense", by cutting the Fullback and keeping the more versatile TE, and open up a roster space I think thats wrong. Just cut the 3rd string QB who doesn't play anyways.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure I would classify Felton as elite. Sure he has been a good blocker, but he is extremely one dimensional and offers very little in terms of formation diversity. You know what Felton is going to do when he is in the game. He isnt out there to catch passes or run the ball, he isnt out there to play any other positions, he is only out there to be a lead blocker. i dont mind keeping a FB on the roster, I would just prefer to see Ellison get significantly more playing time if he can develop into a lead blocker.

Ellison has far better receiving skills than Felton, has the ability to line up at TE and FB, is more athletic, basically, when Ellison is on the field there is no give away as to what the formation will be. There is with Felton, you know exactly where he will be every play.

You can schematically really mess with a team if you come out with one look (3 "WR" with Rudolph out wide) to a traditional I-formation. This is all of course predicated on Ellison developing as a lead blocker.

If we are going to call Felton "elite", which is debatable, I am going to assume that Ellison is a good lead blocker, based on his college play. So to address your concern, I would rather have a good lead blocker on the field who can play TE, catch passes and confuse defenses than an elite FB who will only do one thing and align in one formation, every single time.

And no, I wouldnt cut Felton right now, since Ellison isnt exactly proven.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, I'd like to think we are in that situation, but realistically as you said, Felton is a very good one dimensional player. Ellison is an unproven multi dimensional player.

I prefer keeping them both though. Its not like when Felton is in the game, we absolutely must run the ball, and when Ellison is in the game, we absolutely must go play action or something like that.

I haven't really paid too much attention to Kyle Rudolph's blocking. He seems fine with it. Anyone care to disagree? I can see Rudolph being an elite recieving TE, but just an average blocker some day.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... Vikings tight end Kyle Rudolph has had a recognition-worthy season. Rudolph has more touchdown receptions (nine) than all NFL tight ends except the New England Patriots' Rob Gronkowski. He has a higher percentage of his team's total receiving touchdowns (60) than any other NFL player, the fourth-highest percentage in the past 20 NFL seasons. His other numbers (51 receptions for 473 yards) are less impressive, but you have to put them in context of the Vikings' passing offense, which ranks No. 32 in the NFL in terms of yards. Rudolph has actually accounted for a higher percentage of the Vikings' yardage (18.7) than Gronkowski (17.2).

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/51347/nfc-north-wrap-all-division-team-and-more
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KingTarvaris7


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

get him 27 yards and a TD this week for a nice round 500/10TD season
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